can i do this with my hilux SAS?

mudbug
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can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:13 pm

hey all iv finally got my arse into gear and started working on my suspension mod for my ln107 hilux.

iv got some radius arms and iv mocked them up onto my dummy chassis, looks like itl work but i am really wanting to make a 3 link to get the most from it but being a family man i cant really spend tons of money on it so am trying to make do with what i have even if it means not having a 3 link.

heres what it looks like so far...

20151109_151727.jpg

20151109_151743.jpg

20151109_151802.jpg


has anyone cut radius arms like this to use as 3 link arms? does anyone know if its legal? we dont seem to have a cert man in town so i cant just duck down and ask him. it would make life easy and alot cheaper this way. iv already made my top link, its at work so cant get pics right now.
20151110_143747.jpg


cheers

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby De-Ranged » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:58 pm

with the rubber mounts and the limited seperation on the link with the double mount you will get enough movement to make this rather scary at road speed, so I would say not a chance of making it road legal as a certifier has to pass this on its road handling

Can't really see it from the photos but you may have a caster issue (the diff head looks like it has been pointed up a bit...) this will remove caster from the steering meaning on the road the steering won't self center and will wander
What size tyre are you planing on running, looking at the lift I'm guessing 35"s.... for nice road manners you want to drop the drive flange of the diff to increase the caster (you want it at 3-4 degrees for the bigger tyres)
An option to keep drive shaft angle and improve caster is to grind out (or machine) the welds that hold the swivel housing balls in place and rotate them and reweld.... run a search on here for a hilux build for "Jafa" a very good thread you'll learn a bit

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby derk » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:09 pm

The other way to get the caster angle right is to lower the height of the axle stand under the diff pinion :D theres no need to chop up perfectly good radius arms its piss easy make the links out of a length of tube mate then you get them all at the correct length to work for your application

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby Checkerhead » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:04 pm

Pretty Sure Madaz has chopped radius arms in the rear of his (very successful and road legal) Surf winch truck. Set up as a 5 link though.
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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:11 pm

My castor angle is just like that due to the axle stand stopping it from flipping up. It will be adjustable if I get my way so its not an issue yet.

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:13 pm

And It will have a panhard aswell if youre wondering.

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:21 pm

derk wrote:The other way to get the caster angle right is to lower the height of the axle stand under the diff pinion :D theres no need to chop up perfectly good radius arms its piss easy make the links out of a length of tube mate then you get them all at the correct length to work for your application

Yes it is easy to make some but since iv got arms with bushes etc already it saves me buying rod ends therefore saving money for other bits. Shouldn't it work just the same anyway? Just might need bushes more often depending how hard I use it offroad

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby De-Ranged » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:30 pm

I don't know how you are planing on doing that with radius arms.... additional mount holes won't work as they will have to rotate the housing that much it wouldn't be usable and slots won't pass cert
Your pan hard bar won't do anything to stop the forward and back rotation caused by the rubber mounts on the radius arms (by the way its a requirement to run a non triangulated link setup)
Why do you need 3 link ? the radius arm suspension will give you between 10 and 12" of shock travel/articulation and being road running they will also give you some anti dive to stop the nose diving under brakes (you wont get this as easily with links) as for the articulation that is similar to what I used to get with a RUF setup and was good for 1.2m of articulation

Checkerhead don't know much about his truck (hoping to get the chance to drop in and see him while I'm up here) but first if its the rear some rotation of the axle isn't going to effect the steering... and knowing his experience I'd say there is a bit of separation between the bush mounts so this will minimize things oh and it will have 3 bushes attatching it either side lol

Derk my comment about the caster is based on two things the hilux diff runs around 1.5 degrees standard to get the caster to 4 degrees (LVVTA suggest more) he has to drop the diff around 3 degrees with what looks like his lift this could cause some issues with the angle on the front drive shaft (remember his engine and drive train have an angle opposite to the front shaft drop).... but yes that is where he should look first, personally I'd say loose some lift lol but I like sidelings and a high CoG is something I hate

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby lax2wlg » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:01 am

Reece, what do radius arms give in terms of squat vs a 3 link? Why do some radius arm systems unload uphill?

If I had a wheelbase of 105", plus a 150kg engine positioned behind the front axle, and the vehicle is set up dual purpose on/off-road, and I can get 12" of travel, is there a reason not to go for radius arms in a live axle setup?
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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:11 am

De-Ranged wrote:I don't know how you are planing on doing that with radius arms.... additional mount holes won't work as they will have to rotate the housing that much it wouldn't be usable and slots won't pass cert
Your pan hard bar won't do anything to stop the forward and back rotation caused by the rubber mounts on the radius arms (by the way its a requirement to run a non triangulated link setup)
Why do you need 3 link ? the radius arm suspension will give you between 10 and 12" of shock travel/articulation and being road running they will also give you some anti dive to stop the nose diving under brakes (you wont get this as easily with links) as for the articulation that is similar to what I used to get with a RUF setup and was good for 1.2m of articulation

Checkerhead don't know much about his truck (hoping to get the chance to drop in and see him while I'm up here) but first if its the rear some rotation of the axle isn't going to effect the steering... and knowing his experience I'd say there is a bit of separation between the bush mounts so this will minimize things oh and it will have 3 bushes attatching it either side lol

Derk my comment about the caster is based on two things the hilux diff runs around 1.5 degrees standard to get the caster to 4 degrees (LVVTA suggest more) he has to drop the diff around 3 degrees with what looks like his lift this could cause some issues with the angle on the front drive shaft (remember his engine and drive train have an angle opposite to the front shaft drop).... but yes that is where he should look first, personally I'd say loose some lift lol but I like sidelings and a high CoG is something I hate


i think were a bit confused about what im trying to do and what youre trying to explain. my original plan was just to use the radius arms as they would normally be but then everyone i spoke to said make a 3 link so i got the idea of making a 3 link and by completely cutting of the radius arms 2nd mounting hole. im basically trying to make honey out of dog shit but these things need to be done sometimes haha. i had a read of that jafa hilux build that this is damn impressive.

now back to what i was saying, using the cut radius arm as my lower link, and an adjustable arm going from the top of the pumpkin on the diff should make it easy to get my castor angle correct. what are you meaning by forward and back rotation??

my ride height is yet to be finalised im just trying to nut out how im going to attach the diff.

im learning as i go with this so i do really appreciate any advice and do's and donts you have.

at the end of the day im hoping to make my suspension as good as it can be on the budget i have, iv got some pretty ngarly places to explore once this is complete.

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby De-Ranged » Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:16 am

Lol You were right I thought you were only going to do this with two radius arms.... its an old trick to improve the the articulation, one arm is attatched normally the other by only one bush often called a 3 link or 3 bush radius arm
If you were to use 3 arms cut as links the only reason you could have issue is if the mounts are too close together but if you were to put the top mount on the diff with say 3 holes (options for caster make the middle one 4degrees) and some seperation at the chassis it should pass

There is something to do with equal length arms and handling but I can't remember lol had a late one sorting stuff for the bank will try and remember and post tonight

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby rokhound » Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:29 am

As a reply to above, Anti squat is normally governed (do not read as always) by the separation of the REAR links at the chassis end. Control arm length plays a large part in the design as well. An example of a very bad factory setup is the SWB patrol when you start lifting and putting decent rubber under them. Time and time again you will see these things try to climb and the front will start to unload and bounce all over the place.
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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:15 am

rokhound wrote:As a reply to above, Anti squat is normally governed (do not read as always) by the separation of the REAR links at the chassis end. Control arm length plays a large part in the design as well. An example of a very bad factory setup is the SWB patrol when you start lifting and putting decent rubber under them. Time and time again you will see these things try to climb and the front will start to unload and bounce all over the place.


so are you saying to combat the front end unloading while climbing i need to try and make my front link arms as long as i possibly can? even if it means fabricating some new ones from steam pipe

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby rokhound » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:15 am

Not the front so much, it is more to with the rears. It's all about the dynamics of how the rear driving wheels affect the whole suspension geometry.
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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:09 pm

ok cool. iv already got the back end sorted iv made up a triangulated 4 link and all the bits and bobs. if i worked it out properly it should be fine.

iv done a bit more thinking and i could just ditch the radius arms and make my own links again, its not that much for new rod ends...... but every bit i save on making stuff like that goes to other stuff.

would coilovers be better option then seperate spring and shock setup i was going to run?

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby callum007 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:26 pm

mudbug wrote:ok cool. would coilovers blow my budget completely and mean that I don't get to finish my project??


You are correct.
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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby rokhound » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:27 pm

The major advantage of coil overs is that they are contained in one unit and as such it makes it much easier to fit everything in. They are hellishly more expensive to set up how ever.
Did you build in upper link adjustment on the rears so you can tune things if needed? and did you run it through the 4 link calculator to make sure the theoretical numbers work?
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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby lax2wlg » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:26 am

Sorry to interrupt w more questionsWestie, are there there not more contributing factors to swb safaris unloading habit? Ie wheelbase, weight distribution? Because Lwb ones don't unload anywhere nearly as aggressively, yet the rear susp setup is the same ie Same length rear links etc
And The Land/Range Rover 100 inch platform uses radius arms but in the real world is extremely well balanced and behaves like a multi link front end?
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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:34 am

callum007 wrote:
mudbug wrote:ok cool. would coilovers blow my budget completely and mean that I don't get to finish my project??


You are correct.



haha i will stop dreaming then.

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:38 am

rokhound wrote:The major advantage of coil overs is that they are contained in one unit and as such it makes it much easier to fit everything in. They are hellishly more expensive to set up how ever.
Did you build in upper link adjustment on the rears so you can tune things if needed? and did you run it through the 4 link calculator to make sure the theoretical numbers work?



yes i made my mounts with a few extra holes to change the angle of the uppers, aswell as the length slightly. i did use a calculator i found online, bottom links are about 1100mm and the uppers are about 800mm.

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby De-Ranged » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:06 am

Lax you are right that bounce has more to do with the wheel base than the angle of the links or AS with out turning this thread into a debate over how AS causes this and how much AS is a good or a bad thing (been discussed before and from memory me a Rok have slight difference of opinion on the levels that cause it)
Now the biggest factor and it doesn't cause it is the WB but it has more impact on this than anything else, you understand the Center of Gravity, imagine a triangle top point is CoG bottom two points are the wheel contact patches... now point the truck up a steep bank, your triangle tips back.... with a short WB the triangle is closer to tipping than a longer WB this makes the shorty more susceptible to this

Hey Mud can you remember your Roll Axis Number with a road going truck this is the most important one as it is how it steers and handles (understeers or oversteers) with out going into it too much with the rear you want it as close to 0.0 as you can get
AS and Roll center height are personal and depend on how you drive

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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby rokhound » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:20 am

De-Ranged wrote:Lax you are right that bounce has more to do with the wheel base than the angle of the links or AS with out turning this thread into a debate over how AS causes this and how much AS is a good or a bad thing (been discussed before and from memory me a Rok have slight difference of opinion on the levels that cause it)
Now the biggest factor and it doesn't cause it is the WB but it has more impact on this than anything else, you understand the Center of Gravity, imagine a triangle top point is CoG bottom two points are the wheel contact patches... now point the truck up a steep bank, your triangle tips back.... with a short WB the triangle is closer to tipping than a longer WB this makes the shorty more susceptible to this

Hey Mud can you remember your Roll Axis Number with a road going truck this is the most important one as it is how it steers and handles (understeers or oversteers) with out going into it too much with the rear you want it as close to 0.0 as you can get
AS and Roll center height are personal and depend on how you drive



100% agree with everything there Reece. I think the bit we differed on was how much AS was a good thing. But as you state, that is personal preference and comes down to how you like things to behave when driving. :D
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Re: can i do this with my hilux SAS?

Postby mudbug » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:30 pm

i set it up something like this....

20150302_181649.jpg


20150302_181528.jpg


20150306_211044.jpg


im currently re making that crossmember but you get the idea. does it look about right?

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