Safari Double Carden Joint

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De-Ranged
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Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby De-Ranged » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:49 pm

Im in need of a Double Carden Joint for the rear drive shaft on a project landy, the motor and box are Safari TD42 so looking for something I can source this joint from of comparable size

The truck I got the motor and box from didn't have any and I can't recall ever seeing a patrol with one

Cheers Reece

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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby mudlva » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:18 pm

Y60 rear d.s. u.js have a lot more angle than cruisers or luxs including the lux double cardinal unit.

Russel at drive shaft specialist in east tamaki has a u.j that will travel to 30d at over 6000rpm. Pretty pricy thou

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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby De-Ranged » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:46 am

Thanks for that tip I didn't know that I'll save the y60 d/s for the toy
This isn't about angle and suspension travel in fact im going to run a limiting strap on top of the diff to limit suspension drop to about 4" but still allow full range of articulation
I need the double carden joint to eliminate driveline vibrations because my pinion and trans arn't in a parallel plane
I've done this because the motor and trans are so long and I cant fit the motor overhanging the front axle (like in a safari) because its a series landy (set back grill and short engine bay) and I wanted a resemble roll over height so I mounted everything up with the chassis rails

I have plenty of Hilux ones, and I know they will handle power (have fitted them to lexus and 350 powered trucks) its just I plan on towing with this truck and I see this plus the angle wearing the crosses out rather quickly and the bigger joint will go through cert easier

Will give Russel a call

For those that dont know a double carden takes out the eliptical motion at the joint that causes the fast slow that we feel as drive line vibrations allowing us to point the diff up at the transfer case and deal with most of the drive shaft angle at the double carden joint (you still need a few degrees of angle at the diff head to make the cross bearings cycle and stop them "spot wearing")

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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby Pj_Marsh » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:58 am


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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby Crash bandicoot » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:42 pm

Pj_Marsh wrote:http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/toyota/diffs-axles/auction-1070953860.htm
Saw this one, might be a little heavier then your hilux ones?


if that's a landcrusier joint then its basically a piece of agricultural machinery. :D pretty much the same as found on alot of P.T.O driven implements.
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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby Checkerhead » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:51 pm

De-Ranged wrote:For those that dont know a double carden takes out the eliptical motion at the joint that causes the fast slow that we feel as drive line vibrations allowing us to point the diff up at the transfer case and deal with most of the drive shaft angle at the double carden joint (you still need a few degrees of angle at the diff head to make the cross bearings cycle and stop them "spot wearing")


Yeah I have pondered this before. So if the double carden takes out the fast/slow at one end, does this not create a fast slow problem at the pinion end? Like, usually UJ's are used in pairs and 90 out of phase such that the fast/slow of one is taken back out by the slow/fast of the other. This the actual drive shaft is accelerating and decelerating, but both ends have a constant angular velocity. Seems like if the double carden is doing it all, then we are still going to have some kind of sinusoidal acceleration at the pinion because of the lone UJ.

Or is there something I'm missing?

That's two in a row for ya De-Ranged. Make me smarter.

Thanks.

Side note, I was of the understanding that you do not need to have the pinion and trans in a parallel plane, so long as they have an equal angle with the drive shaft. ie say +5 degrees between pinion and drive shaft and another +5 degrees between the driveshaft and tcase. (Parallel would be +5 at one end and -5 at the other). Feel free to school me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby Crash bandicoot » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:11 pm

double carden halves the angle that one uj would normally deal with the fanges at either end of the shaft still turn at the same speed.

an equation for example would be 0.5+0.5+1.0=2 as apposed to 1.0+1.0=2

the result is the same but only half the working angle on the double cardon's crosses
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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby De-Ranged » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:58 pm

Hmmm you might be wrong on that one crash, I'll do some reading tomorrow to confirm
I understood that because the two uj's in a double carden are linked inside the carrier and in phase they stop all eleptical motion so you don't half angles you run the angle of the UJ at the other end at just enough degree miss alignment to make the cross bearings still turn, about 1 degree
I've done a couple of road trucks with DC's bent more than 10 degrees setup as above and no noticeable drive shaft vibration but this could have been luck lol
Crash I just had a thought your 1+1=2 setup would apply to double uj joint like the type in steering joints or ag style pto shafts you know the ones that don't have the bearing/ball joint between the two crosses and they are phased 90 degrees, not too certain if there is a difference got some time off (recovering from carpel tunnel opp) so will do some research

So based off that if I know the DC joint at the transfercase I have my diff pointing at the end of the bent double carden +/-1degree, CH you are right if you were to just put a DC joint in a normal = angle d/s you would eliminate the balancing effect from that end and the lone UJ would create a pulsing action
From what I understood the small bit of miss-alignment does cause some pulsing but this is preferable to the Brinelling (I can use dem big words too lol) of the cross bearings and there premature failure

CH arn't you doing Mechanical Engineering ?.... you should be teaching me, im still just working on the maths so they will let me do the coarse via correspondence lol should be finished about when I retire

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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby Checkerhead » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:21 pm

Ha. Kind of. I'm doing Mechtronics engineering, which means I get to do some of the cool Mechanical papers, but I also do some Electrical and Programing papers. Flip side of that is I miss some of the mechanical papers.
We are doing a paper at the moment which covered UJ's in about three minutes. I believe our next assignment covers them a little more.

I guess I was asking asking rather than stating because it pays to be humble. I def don't know everything and there are some guru's on this forum (yourself included). I have noticed that the single UJ on DC joints tends to be better aligned (with the pinion) than the DC end is with the T-case. Which I guess leads on to Crash's point.

Crash. That makes perfect sense and aligns well with my understanding. Thank you very much. Good explanation.

Though I'm still a little confused. It cant quite be the .5 + .5 example because that implies that the top joint only deals with the same angle as the bottom joint. If that was true, then there is no need/advantage to the DC joint.
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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby Crash bandicoot » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:40 pm

De-Ranged wrote:Hmmm you might be wrong on that one crash, I'll do some reading tomorrow to confirm
I understood that because the two uj's in a double carden are linked inside the carrier and in phase they stop all eleptical motion so you don't half angles you run the angle of the UJ at the other end at just enough degree miss alignment to make the cross bearings still turn, about 1 degree
I've done a couple of road trucks with DC's bent more than 10 degrees setup as above and no noticeable drive shaft vibration but this could have been luck lol
Crash I just had a thought your 1+1=2 setup would apply to double uj joint like the type in steering joints or ag style pto shafts you know the ones that don't have the bearing/ball joint between the two crosses and they are phased 90 degrees, not too certain if there is a difference got some time off (recovering from carpel tunnel opp) so will do some research

So based off that if I know the DC joint at the transfercase I have my diff pointing at the end of the bent double carden +/-1degree, CH you are right if you were to just put a DC joint in a normal = angle d/s you would eliminate the balancing effect from that end and the lone UJ would create a pulsing action
From what I understood the small bit of miss-alignment does cause some pulsing but this is preferable to the Brinelling (I can use dem big words too lol) of the cross bearings and there premature failure

CH arn't you doing Mechanical Engineering ?.... you should be teaching me, im still just working on the maths so they will let me do the coarse via correspondence lol should be finished about when I retire


all double cardon require a cup and ball link between the crosses otherwise theyd just flop about. :wink:
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Re: Safari Double Carden Joint

Postby De-Ranged » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:20 am

Lol dead right crash they would, and a very simple thing too.... my bad
Found alot on the subject some of it went all the way into the acceleration and deceleration as the joint turns and why they arn't a true constant velocity joint very interesting, anyway they confirmed what I thought

I think I get your point crash..... lol it took a while for me to click to what you were meaning, What you wrote clicked it CH and i think crash wrote it slightly wrong (well to my way of thinking lol) I'd say its

UJ to UJ +1 - (+1) the = bit means nothing its that these two cancel each other and the DC it replaces one of the joints so (.5 - .5) - 0 as the end UJ should now be 0 since the DC is a "near constant velocity joint there is no need to have any angle there
LOL so much for guru.... I see a flaw with my version as the DC is turning a corner not running an opposite angle.... its late I'm off to sleep lol

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