pto hydro pump

davemeasures
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pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:00 am

Thinkn of putn a hydro winch on the cruiser after a ruff price on a pto driven pump

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby MihiT » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:44 am

Would an uprated power steering pump with tanks and coolers not suit? Perhaps a smaller pulley on the OEM to get more drive?
I looked at (am still looking at) doing mine to fit off a tip tray...
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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby derk » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:09 pm

you can run them off a P/S pump but they run as slow or slower than a cheap electric winch :D

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:04 pm

Iv got a big hydro motor of a feed out wagon im make a drum for just need a pto pump as im running pto winch

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monstr
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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby monstr » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:59 pm

hi mate I run a 60cc pump on mine cost wise your looking at around the $ 1k plus depending on brand, how much flow / pressure you want ,what brand winch are you looking at running

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:12 pm

Cheers mate only lookn it to it as my winch keeps blown oil seal an cant be shagd fixn agen an the dog cluch is lockd up agen

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monstr
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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby monstr » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:28 pm

I run a modified superwinch h8pn ,went away from the pto winches as got sick of blowing worm drive or pto gears ,best thing I ever did
but not a cheap exercise if looking for power and speed .

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mudlva
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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby mudlva » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:23 pm

ok here we go.....

speed of winch is dictated by pump capacity/rpm over pto feeding the winch motor which is also capacity/rpm

pulling weight is dictated by pump psi output.

here's the black science bit to achieve high flow and say 2.5k psi off a std pto running in first gear so you can winch and drive is a big ask.

issues are the speed of the pto,
going on memory using my set up which is higher geared due to the auto verse your manual box i had around 600-750 rpm with the engine at 1500rpm.
i was after a bench mark flow of 80l/m. this resulted in me getting a huge pump (like 150cc to 200cc) and pumps that big will struggle to achieve psi at that rpm.
i was advised to run a "set up" box (1-3 ratio0 which is made for the agg' ind' to fit behind a tractor pto. fitted to the box was a 60cc pump. this set up allow me to flow 70 to 100l/m with engine at 1500prm in 1st gear. (higher pump rpm creates better psi)

next step is the winch,
cannot remember the flow of the winch motor but is transfers through a 34/1 double planetary gearbox, i know that the motor is around 25kw or 2.5 doffers, initaully i ran a 8.5kw motor which made the winch fast but kricky it ran out of puff pretty quick as well.

back to hydraulic shop and upped the motor to the 25kw unit which was an over kill, should of got something along the lines of 12 - 15kw as i lost a lot of rope speed but shit ropes didnt last long and i broke a lot of fittings/bolts etc until i could learn to control the beast.

the winch drum was 110mm od

now my wagon has morfied a little and i have rebuilt the drum with a better rope configuration. the drum has grown to 240mm od (i think) my rope speed is around 100f/m at 2200-2500psi with a relief valve set at 3000

last thing to consider is hose size, like all blokes bigger is better and there is no maximum as such, just bigger hose becomes very hard to bend around corners etc. im running 19mm hose and at no load i do not have any winch back pressure ( less than 200psi) which is nothing

budget wise its hard and comes down to oil flow
some items required and lets start from the pump
pump - $1k=
set up box - cant remember but maybe $2-2.5k
relief valve - $300-500
control bank - $500 - 800
hoses (19mm) - $1.5k - $2k
winch assuming yours works - $nil
oil tank - $ modded lpg cylinder nil
cooler (if required) - $ 2k

personally i would move your winch to the rear fit a big arse hose fitting into the top of the housing and run lots of oil with a good size reservoir and just keep topping it up. fit a decent handle onto the dog clutch and maybe air or cable operate it.
chop the back off ya wagon and frame it up with rad and winch in the back, weld the rear and lsd the front and lets go wheeling :twisted: :twisted: 8)

if you want to follow the hydro way ive got 12mm stuff here but that will restrict flow to around 60l/m although you could push up to 90l/m but it will generate a lot more heat as the oil will be "squeezed" through the hose rather than flow through. by product is you will also loose pulling pressure but not alot considering. also 12mm hoses and fitting are cheaper and thats a positive spin off

also have a 35cc pump here which if you can get it spinning to 2500-3000prm will flow 80 to 100ltrs (think small zook diff for gearing)

always keen to talk 8)

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:59 pm

Iv got a winch i can use hoses tank an a control bank just need a pump since iv all ready got pto so thort ov usen a pto pump all ready welded rear end just gota put lsd in front iv got a fiber glass 413 caged body im putn on it so thort id go hydro winch while bodys off

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mudlva
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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby mudlva » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:23 pm

Do you know the flow requirements?

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:20 pm

Id say it could be high flow but in sayn that im pritty sure it geard in side as its a big unit

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mudlva
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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby mudlva » Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:10 am

Ive got that 35cc pump here. If you can gear it up it will be a start.
As a test could you hook it up to a known flow like ran it through a digger or bobcat auxiliary.
That way you can count drum rpm on a given flow. Could do it using my bobcat. May just need adaptor to connect up to my hoses.

That way you will have better idea on what flow requirements to target and wheather its worth playing with a 35cc unit or look at a bigger pump etc

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby mercutio » Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:59 am

mudlva wrote:ok here we go.....

speed of winch is dictated by pump capacity/rpm over pto feeding the winch motor which is also capacity/rpm

pulling weight is dictated by pump psi output.

here's the black science bit to achieve high flow and say 2.5k psi off a std pto running in first gear so you can winch and drive is a big ask.

issues are the speed of the pto,
going on memory using my set up which is higher geared due to the auto verse your manual box i had around 600-750 rpm with the engine at 1500rpm.
i was after a bench mark flow of 80l/m. this resulted in me getting a huge pump (like 150cc to 200cc) and pumps that big will struggle to achieve psi at that rpm.
i was advised to run a "set up" box (1-3 ratio0 which is made for the agg' ind' to fit behind a tractor pto. fitted to the box was a 60cc pump. this set up allow me to flow 70 to 100l/m with engine at 1500prm in 1st gear. (higher pump rpm creates better psi)

next step is the winch,
cannot remember the flow of the winch motor but is transfers through a 34/1 double planetary gearbox, i know that the motor is around 25kw or 2.5 doffers, initaully i ran a 8.5kw motor which made the winch fast but kricky it ran out of puff pretty quick as well.

back to hydraulic shop and upped the motor to the 25kw unit which was an over kill, should of got something along the lines of 12 - 15kw as i lost a lot of rope speed but shit ropes didnt last long and i broke a lot of fittings/bolts etc until i could learn to control the beast.

the winch drum was 110mm od

now my wagon has morfied a little and i have rebuilt the drum with a better rope configuration. the drum has grown to 240mm od (i think) my rope speed is around 100f/m at 2200-2500psi with a relief valve set at 3000

last thing to consider is hose size, like all blokes bigger is better and there is no maximum as such, just bigger hose becomes very hard to bend around corners etc. im running 19mm hose and at no load i do not have any winch back pressure ( less than 200psi) which is nothing

budget wise its hard and comes down to oil flow
some items required and lets start from the pump
pump - $1k=
set up box - cant remember but maybe $2-2.5k
relief valve - $300-500
control bank - $500 - 800
hoses (19mm) - $1.5k - $2k
winch assuming yours works - $nil
oil tank - $ modded lpg cylinder nil
cooler (if required) - $ 2k

personally i would move your winch to the rear fit a big arse hose fitting into the top of the housing and run lots of oil with a good size reservoir and just keep topping it up. fit a decent handle onto the dog clutch and maybe air or cable operate it.
chop the back off ya wagon and frame it up with rad and winch in the back, weld the rear and lsd the front and lets go wheeling :twisted: :twisted: 8)

if you want to follow the hydro way ive got 12mm stuff here but that will restrict flow to around 60l/m although you could push up to 90l/m but it will generate a lot more heat as the oil will be "squeezed" through the hose rather than flow through. by product is you will also loose pulling pressure but not alot considering. also 12mm hoses and fitting are cheaper and thats a positive spin off

also have a 35cc pump here which if you can get it spinning to 2500-3000prm will flow 80 to 100ltrs (think small zook diff for gearing)

always keen to talk 8)


Awesome post, most useful information i have ever come across in relation to this topic i have often thought about the hydraulic winch as i have access to dads stock of hydraulic parts this post gives me lots to think about
my 4wd is not a truck

old mercedes never die but sometimes they do need some love

older cars are good,mercedes are better,older mercedes are the best

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby mudlva » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:17 am

Haha all good. Ive spent years and countloads of modds to get to where im at. A lot of it due to there being so little info out there when i started.
Im very happy with my current set up altho its a bit on the heavy side :oops:
That said it will pull all day and ive done a 300m non stop winch pulling a mate up a nasty track after his winch died and truck broke down. Only rest was when extentions were removed and resetting the rope. Oil temps were lessvthan 50d which i was very happy with. Ave pulling pressure was around 1500 to 1800psi. With it moving to around 2500 when dragging him thro big holes and leaning hard up against the bank at the same time. Had a 3000psi moment that was in the process of inverting his truck up side down when the front wheel got trapped and rest of vehicle was pivotting over it.
Havent yet stalled it in self recovery but theres still time.....
Wheel speed v rope speed is very nicely linked

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:36 am

Yea i was just thinking that mite hook it up to the old tractor witch dose 100lm at the most

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:05 pm

20160821_114918.jpg
Was going to use this as the winch
was going to use this as winch

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mudlva
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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby mudlva » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:20 pm

That looks huge 8)

Do you have the drum and rear mount?

Fit the motor up to the tractor and count the rpm at the known flow. Will be interesting to see what that gearbox output is. Im picking it might end up a bit slow tho

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:34 pm

Goin to see if itl work for the job 1st then make a drum for it goin to mount where gas tank is an run a boat tank for desil

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:28 am

At 800revs on the tractor at 100lpm it was turning sharft at 45rpm

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby suzolla » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:48 am

Couple of additional comments.
For my cooler I just used an intercooler on the return line which has a large flow area and is robust and cheap.

For the control I am just using a log splitter valve which has the relief built in, much cheaper.

For hoses, no need to spend that much if you are using JIC fittings, have got 19mm hose and straight and elbow fittings that I imported from the states, much cheaper than in NZ, plus have got the crimp gear so can make up hoses if you want, have got the JIC to NPT fittings as well.

Can do 1/2" (12mm) and 3/4 (19mm) and 3/8" ( 10mm )

Just need to know length, end fitting type and orientation

Cheers
Tim

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:28 pm

Yea i was going to use a log splitta bank may not worrie about a cooler see how it goes 1st as il be runing big lines

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby suzolla » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:36 pm

Don't think line size has a major effect on cooling requirement, unless silly small causing alot of pressure drop, more about reservoir size (amount of oil to heat up) , how hard winch is working and amount of time spent winching versus cooling off time.
Cheers
Tim

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:51 pm

Il use it 1st an if it needs it il add a cooler later just tryn to save money where possable

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:13 pm

I can get a pump that dose 75 l.p.m at 780 rpm for $650 ex gst or a 100 l.p.m at 500 rpm pump for $1100 ex gst

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby suzolla » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:34 pm

What pressure will they do, as that is the other very important factor, often the higher the flow the lower the pressure.
Cheers
Tim

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:51 pm

2000 at those revs so more revs more psi ther tractor pump witch is what i need for the winch motor

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby suzolla » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:09 pm

Need to check what the max design pressure is for the pump, generally the pressure capability of a vane or gear pump does not change with rpm, just the flow. What pumps are you looking at.
Cheers
Tim

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:44 pm

Its a 80 cc dano tha make

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monstr
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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby monstr » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:24 pm

another problem you might run into is at those rpms is trying to match wheel speed while winching and driving

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Re: pto hydro pump

Postby davemeasures » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:03 pm

Its a fast winch itl be pulling 45 ft a minite with a hi flow pump as its all tractor parts it hi flow but low psi

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