Competition Winch Tech

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DMcCready
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Competition Winch Tech

Postby DMcCready » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:46 pm

OK so last weekend gave me a taste that I am excited to see where it may lead 8)

For the last couple of years I have watched the winch competition scene in Europe explode. The recent Ultra4 race in Scotland was epic.

It doesnt really matter what happens. The one thing you can count on is you will need to winch at some point...

This is a call to the winch competition guys. What do you run? electric? Hydraulic? Hows your freespool operated? Mid Mounted? What tricks do you use to help keep the rope layering correctly?

Ive got a few ideas But any input before I crack out the tools would be awsome :mrgreen:
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby Big » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:02 pm

That's what sets competitors apart.. and trying to find out would be like pulling teeth.. for me.. easy pto run by the seat of my pants.. air operated in cab freespool so it's easy.. but I have plans and na you aint gonna find out.. :wink:

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby skid » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:28 pm

Most of the National Winch comp guys ( ie; single truck entries ) are running a pto setup with a backup electric usually mounted in the rear running thru pipe and out the front ;-)
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DMcCready
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby DMcCready » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:30 pm

Big wrote:That's what sets competitors apart.. and trying to find out would be like pulling teeth.. for me.. easy pto run by the seat of my pants.. air operated in cab freespool so it's easy.. but I have plans and na you aint gonna find out.. :wink:


Fair enough :lol: I thought I would get that answer. Serves me right so I will rephrase... How bout the serious 'Club' trucks What do you do to get through the mud fastest and back to the warm fire and cold beers?
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby geckoadventure » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:20 am

God winch or modified 8274

God winch faster lol

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby QUADRACER » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:21 am

Hydraulic, hardwe to set up, but easy to use and reliable.

try and get pump set on a 1-1 and little effort involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5w749iEG30


also can winch backwards ids off engine.
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby The WEHI » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:54 am

http://winch.co.nz/categories/4x4-competition-winches

Plus


http://winch.co.nz/categories/2up-twin-motor


I reackon would be the goods i have the winch but single motor,
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby Big » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:08 am

Been cruising the 2up site but tbh.. I really don't think they are that fast.. :? If budget is not a problem. .then hydraulic would be fast but also at a cost..weight is very heavy compared to say electric 8274 modified. . Shit even a modified pto would be lighter. ?

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby QUADRACER » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:22 am

pto does not go backwards and modded 8274 needs a few batteries.
your right hydro is expensive but do you want to do it right ??
:D :D
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby derk » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:48 am

QUADRACER wrote:pto does not go backwards



have I missed something or when did pto's stop spooling out in reverse gear :D

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby LR90NZ » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:49 am

QUADRACER wrote:pto does not go backwards and modded 8274 needs a few batteries.
your right hydro is expensive but do you want to do it right ??
:D :D


8274 doesn't need a 'few batteries' but one good one is sufficient.
I have only ever had one battery in mine and over 20 years of use has never come close to flattening the battery. Have even winched without engine running as well, but secret is a good quality battery.

A modified 8274 with 24v is the winch of choice in Aussie for winch competitions, including the big GU Nissans etc.

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby rotordogg » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:18 pm

Was impressed with your rig on the weekend, thought you'd just drive everything!! 8)
I was co-driving in Nissan with PTO, plenty of grunt and it winches in and out, sticks out the front a little too much for my liking but incab air operated freespool is a god send!!
We put winch camera above it the week before kiwi, (turns on with micro switch under pto lockout cover) means not only does the driver get a view of winch and how its spooling he knows when he has cover open and doesn't leave winch on by mistake.

2nd truck in our team (Hilux) I had a bit to do with building, supercheap winch (rather slow) mounted behind driver under rear deck (driver can reach freespool from seat!) through a few pulleys including one out the back and along guides to the front, we have 1.1m from drum to first pulley and it spooled up nicely everytime. One of the reasons we did it rear mount was to move more weight over the back in this truck. Other than broken winch cable and being a little slow it all worked well. I think winch will be upgraded before too long.... (just don't tell his missis!!)

On my trials truck I have a simple superwinch to bolt on the front (take it off for trials), enough winching power for my sub 1200kg truck! and easy to take on/off. Down side is freespool still on front and no camera yet...

Dogg.
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby Checkerhead » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:25 pm

DMcCready wrote:What do you run? electric? Hydraulic?


Think of it this way.
If you over load an electric. Motor stalls or rope breaks.
If you over load a pto. Shear pin/weak point breaks or rope breaks.
If you over load a hydraulic. Relief pops with zero consequence, try again.

DMcCready wrote:Hows your freespool operated?

Pneumatic is easiest for me, but it's personal. Some cable set ups work well.

DMcCready wrote:Mid Mounted?

Do you want to be able to pull in a full length of rope on a funny angle and not wory about your rope building on one side?
Do you want to be able to pull the rope out easily, ie, do you want it to load on the drum consistently and cleanly?
If yes to these, then you must run a rear/mid mount the winch.

DMcCready wrote:What tricks do you use to help keep the rope layering correctly?

Try to get a meter between your first guide and the drum. (depends how wide your drum is of course). In my shortest set up I had nearly 900 to the first guide and the drum about 450 wide. Always spooled beautifully (speed makes a difference, slow ass elec runs slow and spools nice). Only spooling issues were when we used the "rapid recovery device" and that built a nice pyramid of rope in the middle of the drum (nearly 3 meters per second rope speed though).

Elec, hydro and pto can all be made to freespool nicely, how much effort are you prepared to put in?

If you want a fast anything, then you may pay a weight penalty. (bigger pump, multiple elec motors, bigger drums...)

Elecs are very useable. Completely independend of the drive train, start stop as you please, no lever/valve dance to do. They maybe slower pulling, but if you can set it up and stow it fast, that may make the difference.

Basically, if you have one winch, it prob wants to be elec. (what else will get you back on your wheels when you're upside down).

If you have two winchs, make the second one mechanical (pto/hydro) and good for the hard but less technical pulls (obviously make it as good as you can at everything, but being realistic). Make your elec as quick as poss for the technical pulls.

That is based on my amazing wealth of knowledge coming from never having won an event (though I have used all three winch types in competitions).

Be warned that this advice may well be worth what you paid for it.

Arron.
(aka shortylux, if I can ever get back into my old account)
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby Big » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:47 pm

Oh also got a cheap reverse camera looking down onto drum.. as said before. .can keep an eye on things. . Its even in color. . :wink:

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby LR90NZ » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:18 pm

[quote="Checkerhead
That is based on my amazing wealth of knowledge coming from never having won an event (though I have used all three winch types in competitions).

Be warned that this advice may well be worth what you paid for it.

Arron.
(aka shortylux, if I can ever get back into my old account)[/quote]

Don't be so hard on yourself Aaron .............
You placed 3rd in class on the weekend, and only 15 points behind 2nd.
Had you managed to get to last stage in time even with a DNF you would have come second ..........

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby QUADRACER » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:08 pm

derk wrote:
QUADRACER wrote:pto does not go backwards



have I missed something or when did pto's stop spooling out in reverse gear :D



ok, does not go backwards , when you are driving forward.

Ask Stan Goodman.
and for you that dont know Stan, hes the legend of winch comps.
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby Madaz » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:26 pm

Doesnt really matter what type you go for, it just needs to be 100% reliable all the time.

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby muddy » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:46 pm

[/quote="QUADRACER"]
ok, does not go backwards , when you are driving forward.
[/quote]
Why would you want the winch going backwards when you are driving forwards? I can't think of a situation you would want to....

Although the Nissan PTO will allow you to spool out while driving forward and there is a quite rare version of the Landcruiser PTO output drive which has a forward / reverse selector like the Nissan PTO - but you then select the speed via the gearbox - so you can actually spool OUT in 5th gear.
Last edited by muddy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby derk » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:47 pm

QUADRACER wrote:
derk wrote:
QUADRACER wrote:pto does not go backwards



have I missed something or when did pto's stop spooling out in reverse gear :D



ok, does not go backwards , when you are driving forward.

Ask Stan Goodman.
and for you that dont know Stan, hes the legend of winch comps.


it will if you've got a forward/reverse pto you can spool out or wind in in any forward gear....... or reverse gear if you want but it'd be pretty slow :D

anyway back to the rest of the argument this isn't about which direction you can spool on a pto winch :D

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby QUADRACER » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:48 pm

driving around a tree or peg on an off camber, you can lower yourself down , and control the rate of decent.

ask any one that does winch comps. :D


can do this with electric also.
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby skid » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:22 pm

In regards to getting it to spool on drum nicely............

if you cannot fit it either mid or rear mounted.........

did you get a look at Scaifeys truck from the bush pigs with his hinged eye on the front ;-)
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby taz01 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:07 pm

DMcCready wrote:OK so last weekend gave me a taste that I am excited to see where it may lead 8)

For the last couple of years I have watched the winch competition scene in Europe explode. The recent Ultra4 race in Scotland was epic.

It doesnt really matter what happens. The one thing you can count on is you will need to winch at some point...

This is a call to the winch competition guys. What do you run? electric? Hydraulic? Hows your freespool operated? Mid Mounted? What tricks do you use to help keep the rope layering correctly?

Ive got a few ideas But any input before I crack out the tools would be awsome :mrgreen:


i noticed a few trucks with the sprung loaded a-frame with a round hawse in front they seem to work great approx 800mm to 1m away from the winch so rope was winding to centre then naturally spooling out to the sides will be going on my truck for sure.
as for winching Im toying with making a god winch running off the safari pto this then means no need for brake to be fitted as the pto in gear is it.
however std safari pto can be quick just depends on how hard ya stamp on the noise peddle just watch that lunatic Arron (aka shortylux).
the main thing i did notice is 30m doesnt cut it most teams on my hazard were resetting 3 times when once or twice would have worked much better and faster.
The key to this type of comp is teamwork........
the driver has all faith in the navis ........
for teams a hazard that requires winching while first truck is being set 2nds rope is connected to 1st freespalling 3rd to 2nd as 1 goes it taking others rope with him saves time and effort .
as for winch cam couple yrs ago I had mine setup worked great but nobody else id seen then had one i will be add another to new truck well worth the cost of about $80
i have a few other ideas im thinking of using on new toy if your keen give me yell
WARNING:
Insanity has replaced reason in the modification of this vehicle

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby Crash bandicoot » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:17 pm

QUADRACER wrote:
derk wrote:
QUADRACER wrote:pto does not go backwards



have I missed something or when did pto's stop spooling out in reverse gear :D



ok, does not go backwards , when you are driving forward.

Ask Stan Goodman.
and for you that dont know Stan, hes the legend of winch comps.


I wouldn't go that far, Any one could have that sort of truck with the resources he's got invested in those three cruisers.

And as for spooling out a PTO winch when your running up a muddy incline dragging a strop bow shackle block and a winch cable the P.T.O can run it off faster in gear then you will ever pull it.

we had 60 meters on the drum plus another 20 on the front bar work. I think we did the river up to the airstrip in 2 pulls with the patrol and 3 and 4 with the hilux's
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby Checkerhead » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:19 pm

LR90NZ wrote:Don't be so hard on yourself Aaron .............
You placed 3rd in class on the weekend, and only 15 points behind 2nd.
Had you managed to get to last stage in time even with a DNF you would have come second ..........


You are very kind. 3rd of three is not the result we were looking for. Next time will be better.
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby derk » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:49 pm

Crash bandicoot wrote:we had 60 meters on the drum plus another 20 on the front bar work.



shit how big is your drum and what size rope are you using to get that much on there :D

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby Crash bandicoot » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:02 am

derk wrote:
Crash bandicoot wrote:we had 60 meters on the drum plus another 20 on the front bar work.



shit how big is your drum and what size rope are you using to get that much on there :D


Image

dyneema 12mm it's about 580 to 600 odd dollars for 60 meter's, depends where you shop..

figured it'd snap it so just wound on as much as we could get on the drum. lol
Waiter...there is a drought in my glass.

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby kbushnz » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:20 pm

Being a newbie in the winch comp scene (Navi) we have set up the truck with a Toyota PTO on the front with air operated freespool.
And an electric high mount in the rear again with air freespool.
After running a few comps we have settled into a routine of using the PTO for long simple hard pulls thru bogs etc etc.
And then the Electric for more technical stuff.
The electric can also be setup to winch ourselves backwards using a pulley block.
Also with two winches we can use one to hold us in position while we reset the other if required.

For my club truck I have a mid mounted Toyota pto with air freespool. It works great... And also fitting a rear mount electric after being inspired by my Drivers winch truck....
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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby derk » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Crash bandicoot wrote:Image

dyneema 12mm it's about 580 to 600 odd dollars for 60 meter's, depends where you shop..

figured it'd snap it so just wound on as much as we could get on the drum. lol



what sort of drum setup have you got in there you don't get much more than around 25m of 12mm rope on a factory drum, have you got some pic's :D

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby Crash bandicoot » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:45 pm

derk wrote:
Crash bandicoot wrote:Image

dyneema 12mm it's about 580 to 600 odd dollars for 60 meter's, depends where you shop..

figured it'd snap it so just wound on as much as we could get on the drum. lol



what sort of drum setup have you got in there you don't get much more than around 25m of 12mm rope on a factory drum, have you got some pic's :D


Can't give too much away but the winch is ex army.
Waiter...there is a drought in my glass.

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Re: Competition Winch Tech

Postby DMcCready » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:25 pm

skid wrote:In regards to getting it to spool on drum nicely............

if you cannot fit it either mid or rear mounted.........

did you get a look at Scaifeys truck from the bush pigs with his hinged eye on the front ;-)


Yea Skid I did have a quick look at his contraption looked like it worked well.

I am thinking about something similar... When I move the radiator to the back of the buggy I am going to have a think about moving the winch back into that space. Would give me about 500mm of straight pull from the fairlead to the drum. Way I see it anything helps
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