Another crown wheel and pinion bights the dust

[ice4x4]

Have a look at this Batfastard.

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=86617

The attached gearing claculator will tell you exactly what you need to keep your gearing as close to stock as possible. With 35" tyres I do think the 4.75's might be a bit high for the fast events in high range. Ashcroft do a 4.37 HD CWP that might be where its at for you.

[lax2wlg]

Not sure what you mean when you say they 'downsized the axles" with the Salisbury. The Salisbury axles are larger than the 'rover' type and are stronger. Or are you referring to the older ENV type diff?

Oh I mean the axle shafts themselves... not the entire assembly.

Basically there are three major manufacturers of gearsets/axles in the USA. Dana Spicer and Borg Warner. Dana manufacturers the majority of axles and gearsets found in most American trucks, from your Jeeps and Chevy Colorado size up to 10 ton dump truck.

The Salisbury Diff was designed by the Dana Corporation, in the USA. It is known as the Dana 60 and It is still used today and recognized as (arguably) the most durable 1-ton diff available. GM, Ford and Chrysler have all used it under their full size trucks. Offroaders see it as the ultimate before portal axles. It is easily capable of 40" boggers and 350 cubic inches of alcohol injected horse. When Dana designed the diff, they designed the axle shaft diameter (mini. 1.51" IIRC, all the way up to almost 2") and minimum spline count quite specifically, in order to suit the intended application - full size pick up trucks. But also to suit the differential itself in terms of physical dimensions.

Land Rover purchased local reproduction rights from Dana corporation for the Dana 60 in 1971 (?) or around the time of the Series 3 release. They called it the Salisbury diff. But they decided the axles were too large, dropped the size to 1.24" (again IIRC), and reduced spline count. They went below the manufacturers specification. Why? I dont know why.

So what you ended up with was a 10" monster diff designed for a vehicle double the 110s weight, with axles shafts rated at a duty far lower than the differential itself.. From an engineering standpoint, how is that a good, efficient design?

You are confusing the issues here by talking stuff from 50-60 years ago. Times and vehicle components have changed. The Salisbury diff hasn't been used in LR products for 12-13 years now.

Right right but its still used today, right now as OEM equipment in a 2014 Cummins powered RAM towing 20,000lb, So in some ways its more relevant than ever.

[Batfastard]

Looked at a few ratio calculator .but its hard to no for shore.its very hard to work out when u want your truck to do more than one type of event .there is such a huge diffrance between offroad raceing and winch challange type events .

[LR90NZ]

Not sure what you mean when you say they 'downsized the axles" with the Salisbury. The Salisbury axles are larger than the 'rover' type and are stronger. Or are you referring to the older ENV type diff?

Oh I mean the axle shafts themselves... not the entire assembly.

Basically there are three major manufacturers of gearsets/axles in the USA. Dana Spicer and Borg Warner. Dana manufacturers the majority of axles and gearsets found in most American trucks, from your Jeeps and Chevy Colorado size up to 10 ton dump truck.

The Salisbury Diff was designed by the Dana Corporation, in the USA. It is known as the Dana 60 and It is still used today and recognized as (arguably) the most durable 1-ton diff available. GM, Ford and Chrysler have all used it under their full size trucks. Offroaders see it as the ultimate before portal axles. It is easily capable of 40" boggers and 350 cubic inches of alcohol injected horse. When Dana designed the diff, they designed the axle shaft diameter (mini. 1.51" IIRC, all the way up to almost 2") and minimum spline count quite specifically, in order to suit the intended application - full size pick up trucks. But also to suit the differential itself in terms of physical dimensions.

Land Rover purchased local reproduction rights from Dana corporation for the Dana 60 in 1971 (?) or around the time of the Series 3 release. They called it the Salisbury diff. But they decided the axles were too large, dropped the size to 1.24" (again IIRC), and reduced spline count. They went below the manufacturers specification. Why? I dont know why.

So what you ended up with was a 10" monster diff designed for a vehicle double the 110s weight, with axles shafts rated at a duty far lower than the differential itself.. From an engineering standpoint, how is that a good, efficient design?

You are confusing the issues here by talking stuff from 50-60 years ago. Times and vehicle components have changed. The Salisbury diff hasn't been used in LR products for 12-13 years now.

Right right but its still used today, right now as OEM equipment in a 2014 Cummins powered RAM towing 20,000lb, So in some ways its more relevant than ever.

You sure know how to get way off topic. No wonder you think people are against you.

Just to remind you we are in the Land Rover topic and not some American GM, Chrysler, injected Dodge Ram on 40" boggers section. They are all irrelevant to the topic, including the point that the dana diff is still in use in the USA.

Apart from your history lesson on the Amercian Dana diff's, which I am sure most of us can Google for ourselves, the LR Salisbury diff has always been a stronger/diff axle set up in series LR's with the axles that were provided as standard. The Salisbury axle used in LR's was larger and stronger than the current rover axle at the time. For the application at the time, Rover got it right.

But lets get back to the diffs in Batfastard's RR that are abused far more than any roast buster could imagine.

[lax2wlg]

Wow, emotional stuff. Lets not get personal or anti American, FTR I'm not American.. and I dont know what a roast buster is, something insulting I'll guess...

Just to remind you we are in the Land Rover topic and not some American GM, Chrysler, injected Dodge Ram on 40" boggers section. They are all irrelevant to the topic, including the point that the dana diff is still in use in the USA.

You see, its actually very relevant, because it rebuts your claim that the Salisbury, which is a locally made Dana 60, is old and outdated. You said I was talking about stuff from 50-60 years ago which was confusing the issues. I am illustrating that the same running gear is still used as OEM equipment today in much bigger applications with much larger tyres and much more horsepower, without problems. See, you understand!

You're right, back on topic.

Low ratio transfer gears in the LT-95

[Batfastard]

Yes that is an option.to fine tune final drive ratio but will not strenthen my drive line .if u look on the kam website u will see there crownwheel and pinion is far far tuffer than ome .i do run f&r arb lockers.fyi im about in the middle of the tranfercase ratios ,so once get diff close enough still got a wee bit of fine tuning up my sleave

[lax2wlg]

i do run f&r arb lockers

That changes things bigtime...If I knew that I would not have said Patrol front/80 rear swap.. IMO you're 80% there, of course you would next upgrade the gears/axles

I wonder if your ARB carrier would accept a Series crownwheel. Then you could throw some standard 4.7 gears in, and see if you like it for your driving style combo of high speed/low speed. And then if they work well for your needs, break them & then commit the $$ into some Kam etc. 4.7s. Assuming you are running original 2-door housings, believe the pinion gear should be interchangeable with Series pinion gear.

Quite a lot of pissing around regearing twice but possibly worth it to avoid the regret of accidentally gearing too low.

[shortylux]

Was thinking of dropping diff ratio useing cam crownwheel and pinion,thought 4.1 but they also do a 4.75 will 4.75 be two low .but it would enable me to pull 3rd and forth lowbox alot more under load. But im worrying that it will be too low in high box for events like t100 and other off road raceing events.anyone got any thoughts

Easy! Run 38's for off road racing.

[muddymatt1973]

Gear the diffs for winch comp and fit an overdrive to the LT95 for high speed stuff??

Unless yr running a pto winch.....

[Batfastard]

Gear the diffs for winch comp and fit an overdrive to the LT95 for high speed stuff??

Unless yr running a pto winch.....

Yup run a pto winch.also the gears in the over drive set up are very light and u would not be able to use the overdrive in anger

[Batfastard]

Easy! Run 38's for off road racing. [/quote]

S lux my old mate u could be on to something there .in muddy type events I run my 35" simex and off road racing I ran 31" so if I went to 4.75 and ran out off legs on the 31" I could disconnect my front drive shaft as a trial and go bigger rear wheels inch by in till I get it just right there would be plenty of people I can borrow off to try ,so no cost involved then sell 31" and buy what I need . More food for thought.

[91Rangie]

Went through the same a few years back trying to figure out what would suit me best and cost effectively. My problem was welding spider gears.
So did some research instant strength pointed to the Salisbury and
some history I found.

While everyone agrees that the Land Rover Salisbury Axle assembly is indeed a Dana 60 and the strongest axles that the Rover factory put under series Land Rovers, there have been some myths built up over time regarding the origin of these axle assemblies.
Most people believe that these heavy duty Land Rover axles were built in Salisbury England under license from Dana, a division of Spicer. Well as it turns out there is no axle manufacturer in Salisbury England
The Salisbury Wheel Company was founded in Jamestown, New York, in 1901 when C.W. Salisbury, a key-maker and mender of umbrellas, patented an automobile wheel, then pooled his life savings with two colleagues, Scott Penfield and E.D. Sherman, and started manufacture.
Salisbury's first customer was the E.R. Thomas company, maker of the Thomas Flyer. In 1905, the company started manufacturing front axles. Two years later rear axles were added to its product line.

Acquired by Spicer in 1919, Salisbury was moved to Toledo in 1929, closer to the center of the automotive industry. Salisbury axles became standard equipment in thousands of automotive vehicles. At the outbreak of World War II the light, Salisbury's rugged axles proved ideal for the Jeep. The Jeep proved so popular that in 1945 Salisbury had to build a new plant in Fort Wayne, Indiana. In 1970, the Salisbury Axle group was renamed the Spicer Axle Division.

The Salisbury axle was well known in England during and after WWII because of the Jeep. So in typical English fashion, the English never stopped calling the axle type "Salisburys" even after the division and their products were renamed.

Think of "Salisbury" as being the English term for "Dana 60". This means of course the Dana 60 parts fit into Salisbury carriers.
Salisbury axle housings are larger than the weaker Rover axle housings. As a result you loose around a half inch of ground clearance. The one ton Land Rovers made this up by using the Land Rover extended shackles and 900X16 tyres (34 in. dia). The extended shackles added 2 inches of body clearance for the two inch taller tyres. This combination raised the ground clearance about an inch over the stock 760X16 tyres and more than made up for the deeper Salisbury.

So decided to go Salisbury rear and keep the front the same size.
Next was ratio as I'm running 35's bit more research returned this:

One of the common misconceptions about Rover ring and pinion gears gears is that 3.54 gears are substantially stronger than 4.70. This is not correct. The inaccurate information that propagates this myth is that the size of the pinion gear is the major determining factor of the overall durability of the gear set. In reality the most crucial factor is the size of the ring gear teeth. A 3.54 gear set has 46 teeth. A 4.7 has 47 teeth so there is very little difference in ring gear tooth size and hence not much difference in overall durability.

Why are the ring gear tooth size more important? Think of it this way, the pinion gear teeth are always larger than the ring gear teeth. It doesn't matter whether you have a 3.54 or 4.7 ratio's. Whether you have a hypoid or non-hypoid design. It just doesn't matter because the pinion gear teeth are always larger. So assume you shock load a differential gear set hard enough to break a tooth. Which tooth is going to break? The larger tooth (pinion) or the smaller tooth (ring). If you answered - the smaller tooth, you are correct. The cross section diameter of the pinion gear is not really much of a factor.

So based on that info and advice from a well known engineer I ended up:
Salisbury rear with custom 24 spline axles and a Detroit locker
Original front (although I had to use a later model diff head for the 4.7 to fit) with Detroit 24 spline Tru-Trak with factory axles and had it "pegged" now impossible to weld spider gears as I don't have any.
Since fitting only thing to date I have had a problem with is spinning a drive flange. 100km/h about 2800rpm

[lax2wlg]

Interesting tech article from Great Basin Rovers in Utah, and Terri-Anns expeditionlandrover from Northern California. Wonder if shes right or if they really were made in a town called Salisbury like a lot of LR people claim.

I find the 'hypoid or non hypoid doesn't matter' claim made by GBR very interesting.

I would argue that the inherent strength of a hypoid gearset (ie its higher tolerance against shock loading & anti-deflection) serves as a preventative measure against R&P failure. Its a small technical detail that increases the overall durability of the unit. Of course the smaller gear teeth are going to be the first to fail when it finally comes to 'breakage time', but the whole purpose of a hypoid design is to (all but) eliminate 'breakage time' of the ring & pinion, Or, gradual weakening over a period of time, which eventually manifests itself in a BANG when you're pulling into the workshop or in the desert with no radio, and results in a complete loss of mobility

[uptomynutsinruts]

91Rangie is spot on with what he says,

Close family friend is all about his landies and he and I have had many a long discussion about this very same subject, he even cracked out spare R+P's that he had and showed me, and the only real difference in the crowns was the 1 extra tooth. He has never blown a set yet, he swears by the Terrano driving method, load your driveline up before hitting anything e.g. Not dumping the clutch on solid surfaces or giving it a bit of loud pedal as you approach an obstacle. Obviously that is not always possible but it certainly helps.

[Batfastard]

Uptomynuts. I'm shore that what you said is true if u belong to the landrover club and are going on a Sunday run , or going on a trip with a few mates.BUT... When ur in an event that's timed even the simplest things canes your drive train.on ur Sunday drive winching is easy unwind ur electric winch and winch gain traction stop winching ,lose traction clutch in start to winch and then a nice controlled winch and drive.no stress no shock loading.
In my world loose traction up a hill stop pull winch rope out ,engage pto winch up slack now in gear 3000 rpm winch and drive f&r lockers in four wheels spinning then u get some traction now ur on that much of an incline u can't see the ground in front of u so u drive for 9m and have 9 m of slack rope even though u are still winching loose traction sit there bunny hoping then side back real fast brake will not hold u still drive in and winching crash the winch rope takes the load .repeat this 20 times to get up the hill in a 5 minute window ,then finish that hazarded repeat this kind of quite often uncontrolled abuse of the drive train,then load it onto the trailer and off to the next event.
For me the taupo1000 ,that will be real easy to do not dumping the clutch or shock loading the drive line.in this event ur truck gets thrashed more in two day than most do in two life times,did 3 laps on the first day loose the clutch slave clyd no clutch so if u don't finish the lap it don't count so I drive 43 km with no clutch ,fixed clutch and started the second day9 mins in f r wheel hits some thing hard in a deep hole tears the bottom three bolts of the swivel housing and rolls at speed.gets winched back on to its wheels dose four more laps then I get in the drivers seat...fr leans out at the top 60 mm truck seems very second hand the track is cutting up ruts out off the corners are getting deeper every lap,the truck is becoming almost uncontrolible we are using fiddle brakes to get around corners we drove around before .then we hit the bank hard .snap the rf axle stuck in soft pumice on our 7 the lap after rolling with 40 mins till the end of race need to finish or ever thing is a wasted of time. And money. So 4000rpm in reverse drop the clutch and go after a minute we are out.4 km to finish go to change gear no gears off the track into the little pine trees.so now no high box .only low no reverse only first and third low so we off again crawled to finish line.

So what im trying to say is .i started this thread because I wanted to make my rear end stronger and have the right ratio,don't need driving lessons but thanks for the advice via pm this thread and the phone ,I've owened land rovers and Rangerover since I was 14....

Don't need to be told to fit parts from other car makers .i campaign a range rove not a hybrid like most others in class 6 or a lot of others in the winchchallange .so please don't insult me .if I did not be leave in the capability of Reggie the range rover .i would be ls1 powered Holden auto ,Nissan diffs, Crome molley cv and axle .so all I ask is a little respect for sticking to my love of range rovers not hybrids

[ice4x4]

Well said Batfastard. You are a man after my own heart

Even if it is a "myth" that the LR 4.7 CWP is weaker and actually just as strong as the 3.54 CWP it doesnt really matter at all, giving that the 3.54 is made of cheese!!

I am going through the same dilemma with my Rangie at the moment. With the gearing calculators I have looked at I am edging towards the Ashcroft 4.37 only because its "somewhere in the middle" .......

Trail and error.... Engineering at its finest

[shortylux]

Batfastard. I do not understand your crazy passion (the Rover bit, I fully undersrand the rest) but I salute you my friend!

[Batfastard]

Im now looking at it as the rangie was a boat.when we build our boat we fitted two motors 10 m cat and yamaha had no idea on what props i need.they said u need to be abel to pull the red line rev wise give or take a couple of hundred revs.loaded.
So if i can pull over 6000rpm and i want to be tapped out at 180kph so worked out ratio and wheel size and 4.7 gets me tappet out around the speed i want.so as its acheved by changing diffs only .so it still lets me play around with transfercase ratios to get a wee bit more top speed with out messing with your low range ratio so i can use 3rd and 4th low and still spin the wheels up hill in the mud to clear the mud of the tyres. But im open to segestions

[shortylux]

Well, were you happy running 31's at Taupo?
or do you think you might like to run something bigger for offroad racing?

If you are happy with 31's then it sounds like 4.7's is your answer.

[uptomynutsinruts]

Hey batfastard,

I understand what you're going through, and how much abuse poor old Reggie gets in your events, and to be honest I think its pretty awesome that you're trying to stick with land rover parts as much as possible, all I was trying to say was that you wouldn't lose any strength between the 2. Hopefully you'll get it sorted pretty quick and will be back out thrashing Reggie in no time.

cheers

[Batfastard]

Well no turning back now ,spoke the nice man at mainland landrover and ordered some kam 4.7 crown wheel and pinions .so now its a waiting game till they get here from the uk .so we can fit and see if i was right or wrong

[ice4x4]

Nice one! I'll be looking forward to hearing the results

[Big]

Red ya first post.. and all I can offer is advice.. take it leave it..
I don't want to be flamed here BUT TBH ditch the LR axles all together and
put landcruiser or Pootrol axles under it and it'll save you almost everything you are going to do, have done, want to do from them breaking.. Bert in our club has got a HUGE range of broken LR stuff and has finally conceded ( I mean he must have had to spend a small fortune7-10k fixin shyt) and is building a LJ78 truck with 80 series axles.. I mean he has broken heat treated,frozen treated, fine splines, fking, upgraded the CV's to the 90 ones( I think) everything he has done to try to make it so it doesn't.. and it still breaks.. that is running close to 33's too or maybe a little bigger, but not much
I just trying to tell you that really you are wasting your time and money.. NOTHING you will do to make it so it doesn't break will fix it unless you change the whole problem..
Your truck is cool and all but LR running gear is just shyt house.. Ask Bert if you want and I can pm you his number..?

[Batfastard]

Red ya first post.. and all I can offer is advice.. take it leave it..
I don't want to be flamed here BUT TBH ditch the LR axles all together and
put landcruiser or Pootrol axles under it and it'll save you almost everything you are going to do, have done, want to do from them breaking.. Bert in our club has got a HUGE range of broken LR stuff and has finally conceded ( I mean he must have had to spend a small fortune7-10k fixin shyt) and is building a LJ78 truck with 80 series axles.. I mean he has broken heat treated,frozen treated, fine splines, fking, upgraded the CV's to the 90 ones( I think) everything he has done to try to make it so it doesn't.. and it still breaks.. that is running close to 33's too or maybe a little bigger, but not much
I just trying to tell you that really you are wasting your time and money.. NOTHING you will do to make it so it doesn't break will fix it unless you change the whole problem..

Thanks for ur advice .i hope ur wrong and im right .if im wrong u can laugh at me .the research iv done .i feel i have done the right thing .... All i can say is watch this space
Your truck is cool and all but LR running gear is just shyt house.. Ask Bert if you want and I can pm you his number..?

[lax2wlg]

ordered some kam 4.7 crown wheel and pinions

Quality
Are these cut differently for front/rear or interchangeable like the factory gearsets?

Hang on, it was your rear diff that failed wasn't it?

[Big]

Red ya first post.. and all I can offer is advice.. take it leave it..
I don't want to be flamed here BUT TBH ditch the LR axles all together and
put landcruiser or Pootrol axles under it and it'll save you almost everything you are going to do, have done, want to do from them breaking.. Bert in our club has got a HUGE range of broken LR stuff and has finally conceded ( I mean he must have had to spend a small fortune7-10k fixin shyt) and is building a LJ78 truck with 80 series axles.. I mean he has broken heat treated,frozen treated, fine splines, fking, upgraded the CV's to the 90 ones( I think) everything he has done to try to make it so it doesn't.. and it still breaks.. that is running close to 33's too or maybe a little bigger, but not much
I just trying to tell you that really you are wasting your time and money.. NOTHING you will do to make it so it doesn't break will fix it unless you change the whole problem..

Thanks for ur advice .i hope ur wrong and im right .if im wrong u can laugh at me .the research iv done .i feel i have done the right thing .... All i can say is watch this space
Your truck is cool and all but LR running gear is just shyt house.. Ask Bert if you want and I can pm you his number..?

I can only hope for your sake..Reason I posted was because of your driving style.. thrash it..oh and you're putting a supercharger on it..? it'll only add to the problem.. park it up and then thrash it some more.. if im wrong you bring the tom sauce so i can eat my hat..

[LR90NZ]

ordered some kam 4.7 crown wheel and pinions

Quality
Are these cut differently for front/rear or interchangeable like the factory gearsets?

Hang on, it was your rear diff that failed wasn't it?

You can do either or with KAM.

[Batfastard]

Swt as big i will even bring steak to go with the sauce...

[wjw]

Keep digging, this is good


(BTW another potentially useful thread bites the dust in the space of a week )

Time for some Land Rover porn.

Here's a couple of stock standard Disco 2s playing in the mud

[Batfastard]

Well alot of water has gone under tge bridge since i last posted in this thread
I went ahead and bought kam 4.75-1 fitted front and hope to fit rear next week and see if i was right or wrong