Ball Joint Spacers

[bronx89]

So I've found a set of ball joint spacers to lift the front of my truck another 2.5" allowing me to back off the torsions a bit as they're currently sitting on max bump stops.

I asked how thick the actual spacers were themselves, expecting him to say 2.5", and he said they were 1.5". He said that although they are 1.5" they will lift the truck about 2.5" without (or with minimal) torsion adjustment.

Has anyone here got ball joint spacers on their Surf (KZN130 in particular)? Able to clarify how this works? I would have thought the lift would be exactly the same as the spacer thickness itself?

[vinceparts]

well the spacer is about 200mm from where the wheel bolts to the hub, so you take "leverage" into account, think of it how your elbow joint moves 10mm but your hand will have moved 100mm , same shit

[bronx89]

Aahhhhhhhhhh. I see now. So saying a 1.5" thick ball joint spacer will lift a truck 2.5" is correct?

Unsure whether I should get 3" lift spacers or 2.5", I've got a 3" spring lift but still want the torsions semi-tight so it's not sloppy up front (no anti-sway bars). But definitely need some ball joint spacers in there as the top arms are about 1mm from the max bumpstop as-is.

[UBZ]

Anymore than a 1" ball joint spacer and you are going to run into wheel camber problems and fitting issues with the top A-arm.
requiring modification or the A-Arm to fit the spacer and move the bolt holes outward .. you might want to check with a certifier before doing this .

[bronx89]

Anymore than a 1" ball joint spacer and you are going to run into wheel camber problems and fitting issues with the top A-arm.
requiring modification or the A-Arm to fit the spacer and move the bolt holes outward .. you might want to check with a certifier before doing this .

Really? Was told up to 1.5" thick spacer requires no modifications to anything else but longer shocks are recommended (which I have).

Could you explain exactly what issues I'm going to run into? Negative camber or positive? What are the fitting issues with the top A-arm?

[UBZ]

the underneath of the A-Arm needs to be clearanced to fit the spacer and its mounting bolts , even a 1" spacer needs clearance , the bigger the spacer the more you have to chop out of the A-Arm

in factory configuration the top and bottom A-arms are parallel . you add a spacer ,the bottom arm drops and goes out of parallel with the top and creates positive camber .
the only way that you can fix it is to move the bolt holes on the top A-arm as there is only limited adjustment on the lower arm camber bolts .

[Dirtydog]

Anymore than a 1" ball joint spacer and you are going to run into wheel camber problems and fitting issues with the top A-arm.
requiring modification or the A-Arm to fit the spacer and move the bolt holes outward .. you might want to check with a certifier before doing this .

Really? Was told up to 1.5" thick spacer requires no modifications to anything else but longer shocks are recommended (which I have).

Could you explain exactly what issues I'm going to run into? Negative camber or positive? What are the fitting issues with the top A-arm?

Just remeber people will say anything to get a sale.

you may be able to fit them straight in with no mods, but doesnt mean it will be a good thing.

[MK1TNA]

Have a read of this:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/Bal ... acer.shtml
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/Doc ... owTo.shtml
Might help you understand what you in for if you go down this road.

At max droop against bump stops the cv angle is getting near to its max before stuff starts binding so by adding bj spacers so it can droop further your bound to f them at some stage but it goes over that in that link im sure also wheel offset starts to get important as by lifting the top arms up they start to get close to the inner tyre

[bronx89]

Seen that first page before and as far as I can see only mild grinding is required to fit the spacers - no biggy and not what I call "modding" I guess.

It also says a 1.5" thick spacer = a 1.5" lift. I've had the owner of the company contact me saying the previous employee misinformed me and a 1.5" thick spacer will = about a 1.5" lift depending on condition of other suspension components and other modifications to the suspension and truck.

Yes, CVs are almost at max droop now, but I said I'd be installing spacers and then backing off the torsion bars exactly the amount the spacers lift it by - so wouldn't the droop remain constant?

Wheel offset won't be an issue.

Do you know how major the camber if affected with the differing spacer thicknesses? I have a bit of negative camber as it is and there looks to be a tad more adjustment each way.

[vinceparts]

If your persistent on BJ spacers, the A arm needs clearancing (id doubt they figured out a way around that problem) , also id reccomend a front diff drop to help with cv angle, i have seen BJ spacers get 0 camber so alignment should be able to get near 0 degrees again. Put pics up once your done installing as theres bound to be another who searches this forum and asks the same questions...

[bronx89]

If your persistent on BJ spacers, the A arm needs clearancing (id doubt they figured out a way around that problem) , also id reccomend a front diff drop to help with cv angle, i have seen BJ spacers get 0 camber so alignment should be able to get near 0 degrees again. Put pics up once your done installing as theres bound to be another who searches this forum and asks the same questions...

What other options do I have? Won't need diff drop as the angles will be exactly the same as they are now which isn't too bad at all! Yea grinding the top A arm to fit the spacer is no biggy.

[tallsam66]

im sure BJ spacers need to be certed , as would modified bump stops.
Id check with a certifier before starting.

[UBZ]

I know "Muddyhilux" had camber issues with just 30mm Ball Joint Spacers

after the ball joint spacers were in we discovered that the original cams of the adjustment dont have enuf movement to correct the camber of the lhs wheel,so ive now made a new plate which is currently being welded to the top of the a arm which will effectivly move the ball joint out 6mm from original which should hopefully correct this error,

Unfortunately the pics were lost when the old server crashed.

[bronx89]

Certification isn't an issue.

Ah darn, ok, I'll try give him a PM and see if he'll shed some light on whether they stuff up the camber or not. Or if anyone else reading this has pit BJ spacers on a KZN130 pls share your info! Ta

[suzolla]

Hi,

Yes, CVs are almost at max droop now, but I said I'd be installing spacers and then backing off the torsion bars exactly the amount the spacers lift it by - so wouldn't the droop remain constant?

What other options do I have? Won't need diff drop as the angles will be exactly the same as they are now which isn't too bad at all! Yea grinding the top A arm to fit the spacer is no biggy.

From the comments above I am not sure what you are trying to achieve.
Putting the spacers in will increase the amount that the wheel/CV can droop by the thickness of the spacer. If you back off the torsion bars with the spacers fitted then yes the ride height/CV angle will be the same as it is now but it will mean that the CV will see increased angles some of the time as the suspension articulates.
Cheers
Tim

[bronx89]

Correct. I would rather have increased CV angles 1% of the time rather than 99% of the time though. I'm thinking of just a 1" or perhaps 1.5" BJ spacers to allow a tad more droop travel to make it a bit better cornering on the roads and for a little more travel on the beach or in the bush. If it turns out the CV angles are too extreme that 1% of the time then I would make my own diff drop spacers and do that.

[suzolla]

Hi,
Ball joint spacers will not reduce the CV angle for the same ride height, they only allow more wheel droop for the same bump stop height.
Cheers
Tim

[bronx89]

Hi,
Ball joint spacers will not reduce the CV angle for the same ride height, they only allow more wheel droop for the same bump stop height.
Cheers
Tim

Yes I've said I know this. I'm not trying to reduce CV angle, I'm trying to allow for some more droop so it's better than the 2ish-mm I have now. Cheers though.

[DEATH_INC]

Not real familiar with the surf, but some things apply to anything so....
With the torsions on the top arm like the surf has, a 1.5" spacer will lift it 1.5"
It will however increase the droop by 1.5"X whatever the ratio is from the inner bushes to the bumpstop to the outer bj.
Which is where the 3" lift comes from, it ALLOWS you to wind it up more, if you want.
The camber will depend on the angle of the top arm, more than the longer lower (which will affect it a small amount) If the arm slopes up toward the bj, it will tend to give it positive camber, flat won't change it bugger all, and sloping down will make it negative.
What MK1TNA says about clearance.

I'd take the bj off the top arm and see how far you can go before the cv's bind, then get the appropriate spacer to suit. Tho you can always space/get bigger bumpstops if need be, or drop the diff, tho you loose some of that extra ground clearance you gained if ya do that.....

[tweake]

1" bj spacer will do a 2" lift without touching torsions.
i think a 2.5" will do a 5" lift.
there is a write up on the au surf tech site on it. http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/techsite/c ... ension.htm

on the big spacers you can get them made at an angle which reduces camber problems.

whole point of BJ spacer is to achieve lift without having to add preload to the torsions or replace the torsions.
downside side is the top and bottom arms are at different angles which causes camber to change as the wheel goes up/down.

[bronx89]

This is why I'm confused haha different people keep saying different things re: the size of the spacer and the amount of lift. Does anyone know this for sure?

I'm wanting to gain 1-1.5" of droop. Currently torsions are wound up to pretty much on bumpstops. Wanting to keep truck same height. So, to wind down torsions 1-1.5" to gain 1-1.5" of travel do I need a 1-1.5" BJ spacer or smaller?

Have read that surf tech site article before, he doesn't actually mention if the spacers lifted it the thickness of the spacers. But he does say he used 30mm right 25mm left to fix camber probs. that really work?

[tweake]

the surf site write up is adding a 1" spacer and adjusting torsions to give 3" lift. on mine 1" spacer gave ~2" lift without torsion adjustment.

i think the 30mm/25mm comment was for the diff drop kit spacers not the suspension spacers.

i would just fit 1" spacer. they just fit in without moding the arm and are reasonably well hidden. that will get the arm off the bump stops.

[vinceparts]

If your persistent on BJ spacers, the A arm needs clearancing (id doubt they figured out a way around that problem) , also id reccomend a front diff drop to help with cv angle, i have seen BJ spacers get 0 camber so alignment should be able to get near 0 degrees again. Put pics up once your done installing as theres bound to be another who searches this forum and asks the same questions...

What other options do I have? Won't need diff drop as the angles will be exactly the same as they are now which isn't too bad at all! Yea grinding the top A arm to fit the spacer is no biggy.

Going to state this loud and clear......WITH THESE SPACERS YOU HAVE APPROX ANOTHER 50% GREATER CHANCE OF GRENADING YOU CV'S WITH OUT INSTALLING DIFF DROP SPACERS.......

[bronx89]

the surf site write up is adding a 1" spacer and adjusting torsions to give 3" lift. on mine 1" spacer gave ~2" lift without torsion adjustment.

i think the 30mm/25mm comment was for the diff drop kit spacers not the suspension spacers.

i would just fit 1" spacer. they just fit in without moding the arm and are reasonably well hidden. that will get the arm off the bump stops.

Sweet thanks bud, going to see if a mate can make up some 1" ones for me. Will probably buy the bolts and washers for diff drop at same time or even get him to make the spacers if he has time.

[DEATH_INC]

No. A 1" spacer cannot give a 2" lift without touching the torsions.
How the f**k can it unless you have your torsions loaded against the bumpstops before you start????
All you are doing is spacing the hub assy down 1", so 1" lift. Simple.

But try it, and post your results. Some before and after pics, and measurements would be cool. Make sure there is some gap between the upper arm and bumpstop before you start.

[tweake]

http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/forum/view ... cer#226812

[MK1TNA]

No. A 1" spacer cannot give a 2" lift without touching the torsions.
How the f**k can it unless you have your torsions loaded against the bumpstops before you start????
All you are doing is spacing the hub assy down 1", so 1" lift. Simple.

But try it, and post your results. Some before and after pics, and measurements would be cool. Make sure there is some gap between the upper arm and bumpstop before you start.

Id have to agree with this there isnt enough leverage from where the bj spacer is to lift much more than the thickness of the spacer. Unless you do not fix the camber then by having REALLY wide tyres and offset you could get heaps of lift with less spacer but youd be riding the outer edge of the tyre to achieve that

[bronx89]

Death Inc, I think it's quite obvious that it's not that simple; otherwise loads of people wouldn't be saying 2 different things!!! What you think it "should" do and what it "does" do may be 2 very different things. By the number of people I have spoken to that have installed them and said the lift was more (if only slightly) than the spacer thickness I'd tend tomthink that it depends on other suspension mods and condition. But I don't think a 1" BJ spacer will give EXACTLY 1" of lift.. In saying that we'll see. I'll hopefully be getting some 1" ones soon, and yes DW I'll be doing measurements and pics before and after to perhaps finally clear this up!

Tought more people on here would have done this to their Surfs and would have posted up exactly what the story is.

[MK1TNA]

One other thing to think about is up travel, with my old surf in standard form and tyres could never touch/rub on the guards so i always was temted to slim down the bumpstops to add to the little amount of flex the ifs has. cant remember if it rubbed when lifted on 33s on the top of guard arch but worth checking

[tweake]

Tought more people on here would have done this to their Surfs and would have posted up exactly what the story is.

well for what its worth i have 1" BJ spacers and it matches the 2" lift rear coils. no torsion adjustments done.