185 Surf vs 90 Prado

[amboguy]

Hi all,
What's the differenace between the driveline of these?
I've been told same motor. Is gearbox and transfer case the same?
Which is stronger offroad?

Thanks

[rokhound]

Everything is identical with the exception of having selectable 4wd in the surf.
Both are crap as a decent off road wagon in std format due to a weak as piss ctr diff.

[BlakeNZ]

same chassis and suspension i've been told.
As far as i'm aware, all the 90 series Prados are Fulltime four wheel drive(correct me if wrong), whereas you can put the Surfs into 2WD.
In my opinion, there will be no/little difference in off road capability.(assuming you aren't talking about a SWB prado).
I recently parked my 185 series beside a prado of the same vintage(1996). Virtually same length, but the Prado was taller, and more bulbuous. Plenty of head room in the surf though. I estimate a person would need to be 6'6" before his head would touch.
Be aware that some 185 Surfs have a central diff that can be locked, and some don't. I'm wondering if the locking mechanism contributes to the weakness, or if the non locking ones are continually locked, hence advised not to drive on tarmac in 4WD in those models.
However, if Rokhound is correct, and Prado is weak in this area(despite not having the lockable centre diff), then it negates my theory.
The 185 series is quite popular in the States, and i haven't seen many articles addressing this issue. Though the extreme rock climbing dudes go to a solid front axle, which i think entails changing the transfer case etc due to outputs being on the other side.

[drive it ...]

They are both really road cars with 4x4. I used a LWB 90 Prado with 50mm spring lift as a shiny club truck for 4 or 5 yrs. Was surprisingly capable (in to Lake Daniels, Godley, Rakia, No Name Rd, etc) but in that time I did a transfer case chain & gears, a couple of CV's, the front diff (its tiny) and 3 or 4 steering racks. Gone back to a solid axle prado now but do miss the better handling IFS on the road trips.

[rokhound]

[quote="BlakeNZ"
However, if Rokhound is correct, and Prado is weak in this area(despite not having the lockable centre diff), then it negates my theory.
[/quote]

Almost.. All 90 series Prado's have locking ctr diff and are full time all wheel drive.
Was not aware that the 185 could be purchased without a centre diff.
I have put over 200 000kms on my 90 series and wouldn't consider it even half decent in off road ability, but then I guess I expect a fair bit out of a vehicle to wear the "it has good offroad ability" badge
Mine has 4" lift and runs 285/75/65 what most of you call mud terrains, to me they are just a decent all terrain tyre

[BlakeNZ]

wow rokhound you are a hard man to please:) I'd like to think something with 4" lift and big tires like that would be pretty capable. Thanks for your input. Can't beat experience shared, like you and "drive-it".
Why all the steering rack replacements? Wear and tear, or component failure?
I do actually(belatedly) recall a USA site suggesting not to go bigger than 32 or 33" wheels on the 185 series because of the extra stress the wheels place on the drivetrain(centre diff and CVs?).
My 185 series' Range lever has H2-N-L4 on the stick(with 4wd button on the side, to select H4) whereas the lockable centre diff models range shift lever moves in a "U" pattern, and has extra positions, H4L and L4L, signalling the Locked centre diff with the "L".
At first i was disappointed to realise i didn't have the locking diff, and thought that perhaps mine would be less capable, but as time goes by, I'm not sure that it will be less capable.
Point of interest... there seems to be a LOT of 4WD dudes in the CHCH region!

[amboguy]

Fyi
What i'd like to do with the surf/prado is primarily safari type trips.
Along with like woodhill and basic/medium club trips.

[drive it ...]

At the "easy" end of the off road scene the 90 / surf is as good as any other IFS truck. But unless you're into some real hi tech setups then IFS just dosen't articulate enough. So if wheel's are in the air you need to hit harder to carry momentum through the obstacle. And then you have spinning wheel in air suddenly hits ground = drivetrain stress, busted CV's etc. You can resolve that with lockers but that's still only 1/2 an answer - the wheel in the air isn't getting traction, even if it is restrained from spinning. Wheels on the ground is what you need, flex trumps lockers.
Steering gear - I think the setup is just too light. I do a lot of Canterbury river bed travel, often with 4 guys and tramping gear or the family and camping stuff. Hours on end bashing over rocks (even the dozer tracks are still bloody bumpy travel), just hammers the steering, the ball joints are too small to spread the stress so tie rods flog out quick as.
Still rate them as great trucks (must be OK if roc puts up with one )

[vvilly]

i've owned both in standard form
and prefer the 185 for off road due to size of the cab
running gear is much the muchness they are a bit weak in standard form. i snapped my rear swaybar mounts on first outing fishing just getting to the river lol

i have a friend just down the road from me and he has 35's on his 185 too with a 3 inch suspension and 2 inch body lift and he hammers the hell out of it and still hasn't broken a CV

steering rack front ball joints and swaybar mounts the weak points i found

[rokhound]

Front ball joints are an area for concern in the 90 series. Not a lot of fun when you drive over the top of the wheel and hub.
There are pics on here somewhere, as well as pics of rebuilding the transfer case due to the aforementioned Ctr diff issue.
Still, it is the first toymota that I have had that I can say isn't up to the standard that I would expect. Having said that, it does drive nice and it has been asked to tow some loads it probably shouldn't (like the mutt fully loaded for a mish on the trailer)

Blake, you are not missing out on anything by not having the ctr diff lock. You do know that all it does is make your rig the same as any other truck with 4wd selected and the hubs locks eh?
It still only turns you into a glorified 2wd (1 wheel driving rear and 1 wheel driving the front)

[BlakeNZ]

Great info guys.
Yeah i hear you Rok, will be getting a LSD installed in the rear soon. (mud/soft paddocks/'shiny' trips)

[badnuz]

flex trumps lockers? interesting call....

[rokhound]

Pics of the two main issues I have had

[3VILC]

I looked at several 90's when I was looking for a new truck, and seen them with and without locking center diff, but was only interested in daily driver and towing ability so wasn't looking for offroad ability, thats what the 'towed' truck is for

[rokhound]

What models of 90 series are part time 4WD?
That is the only way you will find one with out ctr diff lock.
As I have stated, a ctr diff lock is not some magic traction aid. All it does is turn your full time all wheel drive into a four wheel drive (or 2wd as it should be known).

[BlakeNZ]

VVilly, when you say "sway bar mounts" what bits do you mean. I first thought you meant sway bar links, but after re-reading this thread, I feel i may have misunderstood you.

[lax2wlg]

flex trumps lockers? interesting call....

Interesting call indeed...

Skip to 2:25:
1000 RTI coiler open vs spring under leafer locked

[vvilly]

The two mounts that hold it to the chassis. I ripped one clean off

[drive it ...]

nteresting call indeed...

Skip to 2:25:
1000 RTI coiler open vs spring under leafer locked

Excuse the thread jack sorry Blake...

Not much flex going on in the front end of the defender so its lifting all the weight off the L rear even with that wicked disconnect spring setup. But yeah - point taken, the series walked up pretty easy. OK - Now say that climb was wet clay or slippery rock, would the series still get up with 2 wheels in the air? Bet an open diff trials buggy with good suspension would?

[bob_or_jim]

flex trumps lockers? interesting call....

x2



I currently own a 90 prado and a 185 surf (surf is now SAS)

Love the prado for its size and stability, loves gravel roads and easyish off road trips with the family. Great for towing and general day to day stuff.

The surf was built with harder 4x4 in mind. As for grip if the driveline was up to it I would have bought lockers and left it at that. The SAS allowed me to remove the centre diff and cvs etc so strong as now.

If you were really worried about it you could just SAS it. Like everyone says the chassis is the same so shouldnt be too much diff than the surf. I have threatened the wife with SASing the prado a few times haha.

Seriously though if you bounce up hills then your gunna get to know your truck but if you take it easy then shes all good.

[lax2wlg]

Excuse the thread jack sorry Blake...

No thread jack.

OK - Now say that climb was wet clay or slippery rock, would the series still get up with 2 wheels in the air? Bet an open diff trials buggy with good suspension would?

What?

Lockers trump flex.