A question for the Samurai, SJ's enthusiast's

[Chairmen]

I have a question in regards to the front axle track width difference between the SJ413 an the Samurai, From what i can find in a on-line search is that the Samurai is defiantly wider but supportively weaker an will not accept the Vitara R&P gear in there front diff head's but the SJ413 will accept the R&P gear's??

How wide is the SJ413 front solid axle from disk to disk ?

How wide is the Samurai front solid axle dish to disk ?

Can these axle's handle 33's comfortably ?

For the people out there that are mad enough to run 33's on the SJ/Sami axle's What are your thought's in term's of reliability an strength of all the inner working parts of the soild axle ?

Cheers guys winter's here I hope you'll enjoying the mud hole's NZ has too offer..

[zukmeista]

Vit front diff gears will fit all 1.3 SJ/Samurai centers. The only strength difference I can think of is in the front diff 413's have a 4 pinion center and Samurais have 2 pinion. Found a good info thread with widths etc.http://www.suzukiclubuk.co.uk/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2801 Strength wise yes I believe it is possible to run 33's long term without excessive breakages, however you need to gear it correctly for it to work and it would be highly recommended to fit chromoly front c.v.'s and axles, the hub bolts are the next weak point. The main thing that seems to cause them to break is incorrect torque setting which causes them to loosen then shear off.

[4wdstuff]

Hi,
Have got CrMo axles and CV's for the Samurai if required, there are supposed to be more than 1 3/4 times as strong as standard ones.
See http://www.4wdstuff.co.nz/front-and-rear-axle/suzuki-samurai-rock-assault-33-spline-front-axle-kit-trail-gear
Need some 26 spline side gears or locker with 26 spline
Cheers
Tim

[Chairmen]

Vit front diff gears will fit all 1.3 SJ/Samurai centers. The only strength difference I can think of is in the front diff 413's have a 4 pinion center and Samurais have 2 pinion. Found a good info thread with widths etc.http://www.suzukiclubuk.co.uk/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2801 Strength wise yes I believe it is possible to run 33's long term without excessive breakages, however you need to gear it correctly for it to work and it would be highly recommended to fit chromoly front c.v.'s and axles, the hub bolts are the next weak point. The main thing that seems to cause them to break is incorrect torque setting which causes them to loosen then shear off.

Hi "zukmeista" thanks for your input an the link

[Chairmen]

Hi,
Have got CrMo axles and CV's for the Samurai if required, there are supposed to be more than 1 3/4 times as strong as standard ones.
See http://www.4wdstuff.co.nz/front-and-rear-axle/suzuki-samurai-rock-assault-33-spline-front-axle-kit-trail-gear
Need some 26 spline side gears or locker with 26 spline
Cheers
Tim

Cheers Tim, Them CrMo look the bizzo, i will contact you in the near future see if we can strike deal

[UBZ]

you can bolt a vitara front diff head Straight into a 413 or Samurai front diff housing .

most people swap the vitara R&P into a 413 3rd member to get a steel housing and 4pinion centre . but this requires a spacer ring as the the vitara ring gear has a greater ID than the 413.

to use cromo axles/cvs you need to fit 413 or Samurai 26spline side gears into the centre.

having said that , I'm assuming you want to SAS your vitara ....

the samurai front diff will still be narrower than the vitara rear (can't remember by how much) and will require wheel spacers to increase the track width to match the rear .
if your wanting to cert the SAS I'm pretty sure your only allowed 27mm spacers each side .

[Heath]

From memory (could be wrong), Hilux axles are almost the same width of the vitara rears if that helps.

[Rotazuk]

Now if you are going to SAS a vitara I have the perfect diff housing for you
Hybrid solid housing that will take a vitare read diff head and Samurai axles . Be the best setup for thefront of a vitara , thats what it was made for but the guy sold the vehicle before it was installed .

Still has a little width issue as UBZ said but I would have thought 27mm spacers each side would have been enough to match it , maybe not .

Chris

[Chairmen]

you can bolt a vitara front diff head Straight into a 413 or Samurai front diff housing .

most people swap the vitara R&P into a 413 3rd member to get a steel housing and 4pinion centre . but this requires a spacer ring as the the vitara ring gear has a greater ID than the 413.

to use cromo axles/cvs you need to fit 413 or Samurai 26spline side gears into the centre.

having said that , I'm assuming you want to SAS your vitara ....

the samurai front diff will still be narrower than the vitara rear (can't remember by how much) and will require wheel spacers to increase the track width to match the rear .
if your wanting to cert the SAS I'm pretty sure your only allowed 27mm spacers each side .

Hi UBZ thanks for all he great information, an yes your hit the nail on the head with the SAS.. How do you find the front bearing's in your suzi's ? that's my biggest worry with the extra weight of a vitara an extra leverage of bigger rubber an 50mm wheel spacers.

[Chairmen]

From memory (could be wrong), Hilux axles are almost the same width of the vitara rears if that helps.

From memory hilux are like 20mm narrower (could be wrong), an the stronger option but it would be a complicated SAS being non suzuki bolt patterns, drive shaft, diff ratio's an im a first timer at this type of thing lol it could require swapping in the yota rear axle

[Chairmen]

Now if you are going to SAS a vitara I have the perfect diff housing for you
Hybrid solid housing that will take a vitare read diff head and Samurai axles . Be the best setup for thefront of a vitara , thats what it was made for but the guy sold the vehicle before it was installed .

Still has a little width issue as UBZ said but I would have thought 27mm spacers each side would have been enough to match it , maybe not .

Chris

Hi Chris, Now your talking my language
The funny thing is i have thought this idea up in my head like 20 time's it's so cool someone went through the trouble too build one !!
Could you pm me some pics of this cool little set up with more info

Cheers Clay

[Rotazuk]

Hi Chris, Now your talking my language
The funny thing is i have thought this idea up in my head like 20 time's it's so cool someone went through the trouble too build one !!
Could you pm me some pics of this cool little set up with more info

Cheers Clay

I will rattle through my thoughts on a solid axle vitara , most of this I expect you have thought off and considered .

For the record to all that read I have never built a solid axle vitara , so this is all theoretical so to speak . I was going to pick one up and do it to see if a reasonably simple ( yes I know its not a simple job ) kit could be made up . However by the time I got off my but vitaras are now gold plated and getting on a bit .

Bearing size , I do not think you would find much difference in the bearings between a 413 and vitara front hub so the slight increase in weight would not concern me . There was a lwb vitara doing the aussie winch challenges with a samurai front diff , I did not hear that the wheels fell off .

Due to the cost of the steel IFS diff housing I never considered it a viable option ( esp after I sold the one I had ) . So it is either a toyota axle swap or a suzuki front diff .
Pro's of the toyota , wide axle mod is just wider than a standard vitara , strong , big brakes . Con's are - ratio match and wheel bolt pattern make you do both ends , need 5.29 ratio's to match , need new wheels .

Pro's of a suzuki based diff , ratio's easy to match , wheels still fit , lighter than toyota . Con's are - with issue .

A samurai axle with H/Duty axles and cv's should run up to 33's reasonably ok ( just fine with any suzuki based engine ) . In my opinion if you want anything bigger than that tyre size start with a different vehicle or expect major mod's ( and that is not my intention ) .

If I was going to do one I would either widen a samurai housing and run h/duty cv's and custom shafts or the same with a vitara rear diff head housing etc . The issue may be housing space in the front of the vitara .

Suzuki diff info , 413 rear has 26 spline axles and the front has 22( I think ) , the h/duty axles are 26 spline so you need 413/samurai rear side gears . Vitara rear diffs are 26 spline , just the same as the 413/samurai rear . Vitara rear shafts are no bigger than 413/samurai shafts , ie the outer bearing inner dia is the same size . I have built a rear diff with two samurai long sides in a rear vitara diff housing for my 4x4 . This shows the width difference over a standard vitara .



Anyway back to the front .
Its not very exciting



My phone does not like taking pic's in the dark
The l/h side is an abortion here , I would do it differently next time . I would machine the 413 housing at the second joint and not double splice the diff . Also it is probably not a good idea to just weld straight around like I have done (remember this was a quick wack together to try in a non road legal vehicle , but never happened )



The right side is fine , just weld the knuckle straight in



Thats another good thing about suzuki housings over toyota , suzuki are made out of tube and are round , so they are easily sleeved like this . Toyota ( hilux anyway ) housings are made of two half tubes welded together and the few I have cut open are not lined up so you can't press a sleeve in there like I have with these joints .

Oh and here is a pic of the front axle I had made by an engineer to match the rear I made above . Its a 413 housing widened by 140mm per side , running h/duty cv's and custom shafts . these are not bad to have made as they are just a straight piece of material with the splines cut in each end .



If you imagine you can see the V he put in the spacer at one end , top of the clean bit of the diff .
Boss has turned up so time to get to work . Ask any q's and I will get back to you .

Not talked about brakes yet

Cheers
Chris