Safari GVM

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tuckertrucker
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Safari GVM

Postby tuckertrucker » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:24 am

Afternoon everyone,
Looking at the GVM and GCM of Y60 Safaris here

I am perfectly happy with the 2.5t towing capacity. I might push it every now and then but only moderately.
What I'm not happy with is the 2600kg GVM. Is this accurate? The kerb weight is already 2050kg.
Meaning I can carry 550kg worth of diesel, tools, gear, people and towbar down weight.

Is there any way of upgrading the GVM of a Safari? I only ask because towing 2.5tonne is enough for me, but I can't seem to keep the weight of the wagon down once you add fuel and tow ball weight.

cheers

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby MihiT » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:18 pm

I don't know if it helps you any, but as far as I know you can't actually break a saf. I've had mine over the weighbridge with a trailer and come out at 6,170, and didn't have any issues starting, stopping or braking.

I have uprated the springs and shocks all round (and mine is cut down to a ute). But I do think I need to go up a level again with the rear as 3/4 cube of metal on the tray has my 33s rubbing. :shock:
- 1990 LWB Safari flatdeck, TD42 -
- 1988 LWB 7-seat Safari, TD42 -
1989 LWB 5-Seat parts hack. TD42

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby MihiT » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:35 pm

You probably have a pretty good idea already, and I don't know much about this, but double check the terms, because there's CGVM (combined gross vehicle mass - includes towed) GVM, GTM/tare weights, gross laden, and various other measures.

If it's plated with a GVM of 2600, they may have given that as the rolling "unladen" weight. (ie fuel and passengers but no "load")
I could be wrong about this though, but it would pay to check.
- 1990 LWB Safari flatdeck, TD42 -
- 1988 LWB 7-seat Safari, TD42 -
1989 LWB 5-Seat parts hack. TD42

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby tuckertrucker » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:39 pm

"can't break a saf" well said.

interesting point though - I've regularly pulled a float with two horses, id say 1.5tonne, it was unbraked and handled no different to pulling a 3 tonne braked trailer.

Yea I've checked all my terms and I think Im good with them. I didn't know CGVM, I assumed it was the GCM (Gross Combination Mass) and wasn't sure that Nissan actually specified a GCM for the Safari. I thought they only provide a GVM and tow rating. Noting that GCM isn't always a combination of GVM and GTM.

Just been on the phone with a Nissan guy (who was talking to a guy in Aussie) and, for my model, the kerb weight is 2160, GVM is 2800. And GCM is 5300. The GCM in this case is a combination of GVM and GTM. They've said increasing GVM will, in this case, increase GCM as well.
Does towball downforce affect the GVM? As in is the towbar rated to 350kg at GVM or does that 350kg take up precious payload capacity. Again - I'm asking model specific as I know it varies from car to car.

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby mudlva » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:02 pm

To the god squad gvm is gvm as in gross vehicle mass or max loaded vehicle simple. Gcm isnt gvm plus gtm.
Gcm is gross combined so the tow vehicle may need to off load if towing a gtm trailer to get under gcm.
Currently studing gsl booklet.

Biggest issue here is that the vehicle would need that information on it for a copper to know.

C.o.f trucks etc must have those dets on the windscreen so its easy for them to check once they have you in there web.

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby mudsurfv6 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:12 pm

MihiT wrote: I've had mine over the weighbridge with a trailer and come out at 6,170, and didn't have any issues starting, stopping or braking.


thing is if you have an accident the insurance company will/might see things differently.

also legally, with a diesel the RUC weight should include trailer weight, I know the cops rarely weigh vehicles towing trailers but I know someone ( was working ) who got weighed and wasn't allowed to leave weigh bridge until the ute and trailer was down to a safe towing weight, plus they got a $7000 fine. he was towing 4 tonne on a tandem trailer and 1 tonne on the back of a shagger though, well over 7 tonne on a 2 tonne RUC, and over the 6 tonne max for car licence.

just saying.
1996 vzn185 surf, TRD supercharger, SAS, 35s, 4" lift, 2 lockers, ute chopped + more happening. Andrew 0272226292.

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby tuckertrucker » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:33 pm

mudlva wrote:To the god squad gvm is gvm as in gross vehicle mass or max loaded vehicle simple. Gcm isnt gvm plus gtm.
Gcm is gross combined so the tow vehicle may need to off load if towing a gtm trailer to get under gcm.
Currently studying gsl booklet.


Yup thats right - but very generalised. Most vehicle manufactures, or certifiers will issue a GCM based on the vehicles capabilities. Some manufactures deem the GCM to be a reflection of what the vehicle is capable of towing.

According to Nissan, their GCM rating on the VRGY60 Safari is based entirely on GVM and towing capacity. A lot of vehicles aren't rated this way. And modern Nissan don't do it that way anymore either. Conveniently though, for the GQ, it is. And, according to nissan, if i raise the GVM, its factory GCM raises accordingly to maintain the towing capacity. However, this isn't the way NZTA sees it, and it would require recertification to increase the GCM.

But I know the later rangers, for example, have a GCM that isn't the sum of GVM and tow capacity. And increasing the GVM will decrease the realistic tow capacity due to their being not as much difference between the vehicles weight and GCM

It took about an hour of phone calls to learn this practically useless information

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby mudlva » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:13 pm

tuckertrucker wrote:
It took about an hour of phone calls to learn this practically useless information


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby tweake » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:41 pm

mudsurfv6 wrote:also legally, with a diesel the RUC weight should include trailer weight,
.

not with light trailers. they changed it a few years back.

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby mudsurfv6 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:15 pm

tweake wrote:not with light trailers. they changed it a few years back.


ok, didn't know that.
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Re: Safari GVM

Postby tuckertrucker » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:37 am

tweake wrote:
mudsurfv6 wrote:also legally, with a diesel the RUC weight should include trailer weight,
.

not with light trailers. they changed it a few years back.


Is it light trailers or light diesels? What's the rule say now.

I could probably find it myself.

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby tweake » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:58 pm

its light trailers.
not sure on exact wording but afaik they ditched all requirements for light trailers to have RUC.
which is good as no one ever bothered. don't forget petrol vehicles where meant to get RUC for the trailer. like that would ever happen.

only trailers that need RUC now is heavy trailers ie over 3500kg.

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby doddzee » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:49 am

tuckertrucker wrote:Just been on the phone with a Nissan guy (who was talking to a guy in Aussie) and, for my model, the kerb weight is 2160, GVM is 2800. And GCM is 5300. The GCM in this case is a combination of GVM and GTM. They've said increasing GVM will, in this case, increase GCM as well.
Does towball downforce affect the GVM? As in is the towbar rated to 350kg at GVM or does that 350kg take up precious payload capacity. Again - I'm asking model specific as I know it varies from car to car.


The GVM for a motor vehicle in NZ means either:

a) the maximum permitted mass of a vehicle, which includes the mass of the accessories, the crew, the passengers and load, and is, unless (b) applies, the gross vehicle mass specified (subsequent to the latest modification, if any) by the manufacturer of the vehicle, or

b) if a person approved for the purpose by the NZTA determines that the gross vehicle mass should differ from that specified by the manufacturer, taking into account evidence on the capability of the systems and components of the vehicle, or the effects of any modification, that mass determined by that person.

The rating provided by someone in Australis is irrelevant, your GVM is whatever NZTA has approved for that vehicle model at entry compliance. Punch your rego number into carjam, it should provide you the vehicle GVM. If not send me your reg and I can look it up for you. You will find that the majaroty of SWB Safaris only have a GVM of between 2300 - 2400kg which leaves bugger all payload capacity. Towball downforce is taken into consideration for the vehicles GVM , it is considered 'load'.
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Re: Safari GVM

Postby tuckertrucker » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:59 am

doddzee wrote:
tuckertrucker wrote:Just been on the phone with a Nissan guy (who was talking to a guy in Aussie) and, for my model, the kerb weight is 2160, GVM is 2800. And GCM is 5300. The GCM in this case is a combination of GVM and GTM. They've said increasing GVM will, in this case, increase GCM as well.
Does towball downforce affect the GVM? As in is the towbar rated to 350kg at GVM or does that 350kg take up precious payload capacity. Again - I'm asking model specific as I know it varies from car to car.


The GVM for a motor vehicle in NZ means either:

a) the maximum permitted mass of a vehicle, which includes the mass of the accessories, the crew, the passengers and load, and is, unless (b) applies, the gross vehicle mass specified (subsequent to the latest modification, if any) by the manufacturer of the vehicle, or

b) if a person approved for the purpose by the NZTA determines that the gross vehicle mass should differ from that specified by the manufacturer, taking into account evidence on the capability of the systems and components of the vehicle, or the effects of any modification, that mass determined by that person.

The rating provided by someone in Australis is irrelevant, your GVM is whatever NZTA has approved for that vehicle model at entry compliance.


Yup thats what NZTA said to me, but they said that the GVM they rate it for is what the manufacturer rated it at. NZTA can't rerate a vehicle from its factory ratings, unless it is certified by the LVV people

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby Lchundy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:28 pm

As mentioned check your gvm on car jam as no-one can tell you by just your model number.
E.g
My 80 series is 5 seater so has a higher gvm than a 8 seater 80 series
I've had a cop stop me to check my towing weight on my 100 series and he went off the tow bar rating which was 3500kg brake so let me go
He did say most tickets they give out are for over weight unbraked trailers

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby tuckertrucker » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:43 pm

Thats why I'm asking here. NZTA have 2800, carjam says 2650.

And if you go to the manufacturer with the factory identification numbers, they can tell you exactly what that particular vehicle was designed for. Hence why talking with Nissan, they were able to bring those details up. And they can tell you a hell of a lot more about the vehicle when it came out of the factory than NZTA can. NZTA only have on record what Nissan gives them. or if the vehicle is modified, what your LVVTA certifier gives them.

Anyway, as we now know, the GVM of the wagon is 2800kg. Not much. Is it possible to legally uprate this in a light vehicle in NZ? I know in Aussie they do GVM uprates on the GU's with strong springs, shocks and upgraded brakes. Would this and a cert be all thats needed here? I'm only looking for another 300kg.

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Re: Safari GVM

Postby doddzee » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:55 am

Where did you obtain the NZTA rating from? There should not be a difference between NZTA and Carjam as they both come from the same register. I use both carjam and the motorvehicle register (landata) on nearly a daily basis, the information has never differed.

NZTA does have the authority to change vehicle ratings despite what the manufacture states at time of entry compliance. There of course must be justification for change so for un-modified vehicles it will not occur often. Changes to GVM after entry compliance requrie certfication with the exception of the GCM, only NZTA has the authority to approve a GCM change or issue one if manufacture data is unavailable.

I am unsure about the process for up-rating the GVM of light vehicles, you can with Heavy Vehicles if a modification takes place which justifies the increase. There is likley a process for light vehicles, contact LVVTA.
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Re: Safari GVM

Postby tuckertrucker » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:49 am

doddzee wrote:Where did you obtain the NZTA rating from? There should not be a difference between NZTA and Carjam as they both come from the same register. I use both carjam and the motorvehicle register (landata) on nearly a daily basis, the information has never differed.

NZTA does have the authority to change vehicle ratings despite what the manufacture states at time of entry compliance. There of course must be justification for change so for un-modified vehicles it will not occur often. Changes to GVM after entry compliance requrie certfication with the exception of the GCM, only NZTA has the authority to approve a GCM change or issue one if manufacture data is unavailable.

I am unsure about the process for up-rating the GVM of light vehicles, you can with Heavy Vehicles if a modification takes place which justifies the increase. There is likley a process for light vehicles, contact LVVTA.

thanks thats helpful :D

I dunno about the discrepancy, they couldn't explain it. I called NZTA directly to ask why it had been down rated. Considering the factory GVM is 2800 and carjam said 2650, and the truck is unmodified. I wanted to know why it. The guy suggested that someone might have slipped up when they did original register or something. I dunno. But it is unmodified, and the factory GVM is 2800kg. And the NZTA people agreed. Which is a pain cause I use carjam all the time too. I don't trust their weights though. A number of cars I've looked at have had the same tare weight as their GVM.

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