Farm land usage for 4wd events

dvkmunta1kzsurf
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Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby dvkmunta1kzsurf » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:16 pm

Hi team
I'm after some info on the changes on the health and safety act reguarding the usage of farm land for a small open to public 4wd event. The land owner is worried that if someone hurts themselves on his land he could get done for it by work safe.
Has anyone run a event like this before and if so what do you do to provent this.
Do we need to become apart of the nzfwda to run these events?
Any info would be great cheers

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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby mudde1taketwo » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:28 pm

NZFWD has done a lot of work on this and we know the situation well, and it can be complex. Who is managing the event? is this a commercial event? club event>? Who is insuring the event? Is anyone employed or a regular volunteer? is the land owner receiving money? is the landowner providing any other services other than providing land? what is the normal usage of the land? is the event going to make use of any such as bridges or buildings? The list goes on but if you can answer these questions I can give you guidance.
Tony Burgess On behalf of NZFWDA

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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby mudde1taketwo » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:20 pm

or you can email me on burgesst@xtra.co.nz

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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby dvkmunta1kzsurf » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:54 pm

Cool cheers I did wonder if you guys at the NZFWD had come across this issue before and know how to deal with it. The event would be run through the small group of guys we have in dannevirke here and also the farmer. I guess you could call us a unofficial club. Would run the event through our Facebook page. The land is used as a farm. No bridges or anything like that. The farmer himself would like a entry fee for use of land etc. insurance is the issue I guess. You would need public liability insurance to cover if someone did hurt themselves from what I understand. With that could you use the farms insurance to cover this.
This seams like a pain in the bum to sort to open up to anyone to come. Might just be easy to keep to a bunch of mates on a mates farm having a good time??????

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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby Crash bandicoot » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:29 pm

if you can get a registered club to sanction the event you could possibly use that clubs liability insurance.
we have a similar arrangement with a block of land we use for 4wd events.
however it is only the job of the club to ensure a paper trail of safe practice and record attendies (day member ship form) and the insurance is only there to protect the land owner from loss in the event of a claim(example of this would be if a 4wds hot exhaust started a fire in his block of pine trees), it does not cover personal loss of vehicles or damage to vehicles as that should be covered by the vehicle owners insurance or own pocket.

similarly we have a disclaimer that points out the responsibilties of the attendies (all care no responsibilty) when it comes to there health and saftley whilst at the event and recovering there vehicle.
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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby mudde1taketwo » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:13 pm

some of that is correct and some is not. I presume that you are charging a fee to the public. There are several issues you need to be aware of. Firstly, I don’t want to scare you off running events, but they need to be done properly
The use of disclaimer that points out the responsibilities of the attendees (all care no responsibility) is almost a complete waste of time. You cannot contract out of your legal reasonability’s. they will not stand up in court.
Adventure Activities Regulations. These regulations require that any one charging a fee to drive a vehicle off road requires to be licenced under these regulations and have safety audits etc. It is possible for you to comply with this if you have the expertise, but it will be costly. Minimum of $10,000 and take several months. Genuine 4x4 clubs who belong to NZFWDA are exempt from this, for MEMBERS only. Non-members must become day members under the rules of the club concerned. Just having a bunch of mates calling themselves a club is not enough, you need to be a properly incorporated with proper rules accounting processes etc and preferably members of NZFWDA or you are in breach of the regulations, and the penalties are severe.
Insurance
The insurance that NZFWDA holds covers several things, rural fires, public liability and the big one is Legal defence. There have been many examples of people running sports events where things have gone wrong and they have been charged under the crimes act or similar with an offence. Even if eventually found not guilty, the biggest cost is usually legal defence. If you don’t have that insurance cover, you will need very deep pockets to pay those bills. It would bankrupt most people and has happened more than once.

Health and safety regs.
Complex issue for us, but in simple terms if no one is employed, or receiving a reward, there are no building or bridges etc involved, no payment is made to anyone personally, no “regular volunteers” and no work taking place, then the farmers main requirement is a duty to warn of dangers. Much less of a requirement than he has to his staff or other visitors to the “workplace” A paddock where no work is taking place is not a work place, so regs do not apply. however in this case becouse the landowner is charging customers will be entitled to the same protection as staff. the exemption will not apply to this situation.
Crimes Act.
There are many clauses in the crimes act that have been used to prosecute organizers of sports events where there have been accidents. In simple terms, everyone is required to do everything reasonable to keep others safe. A very broad and wide-ranging clause.
Keep in mind that if something goes wrong, Police, Worksafe and possibly the family of the victim will be taking a shot gun approach and having a shot at everyone involved in whatever way they can.
Personally, knowing what I know now after 20 years in 4x4 clubs and 10 years on the National Exec taking a special interest in these issues and running many events, there is no way in hell that I would run a 4x4 event as a private person. the risks are far too high. Clubs and NZFWDA have that risk managed. It’s the only way I would do it. If I was the land owner the same would apply. a club can run this event if done propley. you wouild be mad to do it yourself with out club protection

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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby DieselBoy » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:23 pm

So, let's say I advertise on ORE to have a camp out, bonfire and tear up grass weekend at our place, 22 acres of hills and bush, it's an open invite to all ORE members (muppets not included)

It's an "event" as far as in the dictionary definition of an event.

No money changes hands, it's an informal gathering of mates from an internet group, invite only. I have nothing to gain other than ego for having a cool place for people to do skids.

We do skids, we camp, we burn stuff, sink a few beers etc.

There's a very real chance someone will do damage and break/roll truck and get injured, get really stuck and catch a disease from the mud, stumble off into the bush after a few beers and fall into the creek and break a leg, try and walk across burning coals on the fire in bare feet etc ..........

What's your take on that these days??

We had a few epic ORE gatherings at my parents old property once upon a time, be cool to do it again, but this time at mine :)

Cheers,
Pete.
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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby NJV6 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:41 pm

Hi Pete, I asked that exact question of my worksafe inspector when we had an organised visit.

My question was, can I still get some friends around and set up a track in a paddock for a time trial and not be held liable. The answer was yes providing it was not a workplace at the time. I can move my stock to another paddock and therefore that paddock is no longer a workplace ruling worksafe out.
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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby mudde1taketwo » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:33 pm

I would agree with NJV6 that if there is no work taking place, and no money or reward (Koha, donation, free goods, and services etc) is changing hands, Work safe are unlikely to be involved.
If no money or reward Adventure Activities Regulations will not apply.
However, if you can drive a vehicle there, it is a road and transport regulations apply, and the crimes act will always apply. It becomes a Police matter. I can point to examples such as a golf cart being driven in a private carpark, where there was a serious injury and the crimes act was used to charge the organizer of the event and the driver charged under land transport regs. There is also a case of a person driving a car in a secured yard that was fenced and locked off from the public and the driver was convicted of drink driving.
Over recent years we have seen the family of victims wanting to punish someone they see as responsible for the loss of a loved one and are increasingly looking at private prosecutions under the crimes act, even after Police have decided to take no further action. This happened recently to a motorcycle event where the family persuaded a case against the organiser of an event because they didn’t check that the motorcycle involved had the correct steering and breaking. People who were once mates’ family, can very quickly turn against you when something goes wrong.
Remember that if a group of people organize an event they become equally and severally reasonable, so any one of the organizers can be held responsible, regardless of how big or small their involvement is.
Even beyond the legal aspects, when you stand in the Coroners Court in front of the victims family and the Coroner says to you, “ what did you do to make sure the victim was safe” you will need to have a bloody good answer.
Don’t get me wrong, I arrange lots of events, but always within the club. It is unlikely that anything will go wrong, but if something happens, you need to be ready for the worst.

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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby Sausager » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:27 am

I can't believe that in the world we live in you can't simply invite your mates around for a hack in the mud without thinking about this sort of thing!

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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby mudde1taketwo » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:37 pm

sad i know, but is the way of the world. Be thankfull you dont live in USA where it is far worse.

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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby DieselBoy » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:56 pm

I would also draw a line in the sand too.

Haveing ya mates round for a play is quite different from advertising and organising a gathering on a website.

Obviously the potential for the above mentioned issues still exists with ya group of mates, but the dynamic is quite different when compared to having a gathering that includes folks you have never met in the flesh
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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby mudde1taketwo » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:19 am

Thats all very well, but its not you who gets to "draw the line in the sand" its the revelent authoritys and the courts, I am simply pointing out what what is happening now days.

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Re: Farm land usage for 4wd events

Postby DieselBoy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:20 pm

mudde1taketwo wrote:Thats all very well, but its not you who gets to "draw the line in the sand" its the revelent authoritys and the courts, I am simply pointing out what what is happening now days.


Yep, and we thank you for that, we have taken note of your advice, and will be sure to bare it in mind in the future.

I think it's a case of excerising a degree of caution and being aware of the potential consequences, and not an excuse to stay home and watch TV ;)
lax2wlg wrote:Is that like saying 'she's hot, for a crackwhore??

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