Auto gearbox prejudice

[imac]

Okay so here’s a question.

Am I unreasonably prejudiced against auto gearboxes?

I am looking for a fairly modern 4x4, something softroady but with some capability i.e an X-Trail, Prado, etc but they are all auto.  I have never owned a auto and I like the perceived control I have with a manual.

The reality is that I will do 80% of my driving on roads, 15% on tracks and maybe 5% genuinely off road getting to hunting areas, I don’t have a boat so it won’t be a tower.  I would like to play off road more just for fun and I am not concerned about my ‘shiny’ getting bit bashed and scratched.

Looking at the price range I am buying in (circa $35k) everything is auto and I don’t have the mechanical ability to maintain an older, higher ks vehicle which is manual.
Is my auto prejudice unreasonable?   

What are the pros and cons?

Cheers

[TJ]

In simple terms, yes your prejudice against autos is dated and based on old wives tails from the 1960s and 1970s. Modern autos are equally, if not more, capable offroad. You cannot stall an auto (well, not under normal circumstances). You have the ability to crawl better with easier and more controlled starts. You can up or down shift while wheel spinning in mud without worrying about clutch worries. If you can find an auto that can be controlled to act like a manual (i.e. you can drive it with up/down shifting), that would be a huge benefit than an auto that only has P R N D options - run away from those.

Down side, you have to manage heat in autos. Also, not all autos are equal. Some upshift on their own even though you are trying to hold them down in 1st... Downhill engine braking can be interesting, but if its properly geared it should not be an issue. Besides left foot braking can easily be mastered if required.

Drive a modern auto for a test drive and see what it feels like. What make of 4x4s are you looking at?

[Crash bandicoot]

Go for a ride in a truck with a manualised auto. You,ll never want a clutch again. Crawling. Gear change underload, keeping the wheels moving in mud bogs when shifting. Down side cant crash start it.

[TJ]

Go for a ride in a truck with a manualised auto. You,ll never want a clutch again. Crawling. Gear change underload, keeping the wheels moving in mud bogs when shifting. Down side cant crash start it.

Push start, typically needed when battery is dead or starter is stuffed. Battery dead, you can jump start. Starter stuffed, well... We don't live in a perfect world. Its a trade off

[imac]

In simple terms, yes your prejudice against autos is dated and based on old wives tails from the 1960s and 1970s....
What make of 4x4s are you looking at?

Bwahaha well I am from the 60s and 70s so fair call
Your answer now opens up a raft of possibilities, Prado, Pathfinder, something more road than off but has some chops.
Open to suggestions, budget of around $35k including new feet, protection and maybe a lift

Thanks

[Crash bandicoot]

In simple terms, yes your prejudice against autos is dated and based on old wives tails from the 1960s and 1970s....
What make of 4x4s are you looking at?

Bwahaha well I am from the 60s and 70s so fair call
Your answer now opens up a raft of possibilities, Prado, Pathfinder, something more road than off but has some chops.
Open to suggestions, budget of around $35k including new feet, protection and maybe a lift

Thanks

Alota truck for 35K....http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/land-rover/auction-869855507.htm................
gonna need the service and parts department on speed dial though.

one already to roll...errr. go.http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/land-rover/auction-866178775.htm

[TJ]

Bwahaha well I am from the 60s and 70s so fair call
Your answer now opens up a raft of possibilities, Prado, Pathfinder, something more road than off but has some chops.
Open to suggestions, budget of around $35k including new feet, protection and maybe a lift

Thanks

I'm a Jeepaholic, so:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/jeep/auction-867799834.htm This is diesel / automatic.

But then manual 4x4s do exist:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/jeep/auction-869147104.htm

You have the budget, but do you want petrol or diesel? SWB or LWB? Removal top? Fixed top?

I will never recommend a Toyota or Nissan.

[lax2wlg]

In simple terms, yes your prejudice against autos is dated and based on old wives tails from the 1960s and 1970s. Modern autos are equally, if not more, capable offroad. You cannot stall an auto (well, not under normal circumstances). You have the ability to crawl better with easier and more controlled starts. You can up or down shift while wheel spinning in mud without worrying about clutch worries. If you can find an auto that can be controlled to act like a manual (i.e. you can drive it with up/down shifting), that would be a huge benefit than an auto that only has P R N D options - run away from those.

Down side, you have to manage heat in autos. Also, not all autos are equal. Some upshift on their own even though you are trying to hold them down in 1st... Downhill engine braking can be interesting, but if its properly geared it should not be an issue. Besides left foot braking can easily be mastered if required.

Drive a modern auto for a test drive and see what it feels like. What make of 4x4s are you looking at?

Nup.
Automatic transmissions will never allow you to put down torque as usefully as a manual transmission.
Because the wheel speed will increase with the engine speed, it may seem like better low speed crawl control, but the AT will give you 'fake' crawler gears, and never come close to replicating a properly selected differential/gearbox ratio combination.
It is impossible to calculate crawl ratio with an AT because of the constant TC slippage.
Auto transmissions suck engine power.
Auto transmissions cannot provide compression braking.
Auto transmissions cannot be tow started in the event of electrical failure.
A manual transmission harmonizes the operator with the drivetrain and gives total 'feel' of what is going on underneath you.
A manual transmission requires a more skilled operator.
A manual transmission allows the operator to utilise 100% of the torque available and obtain maximum benefits from his differential/transfer reduction gearing selection.

[MihiT]

I'm in the anti-camp:

Auto uses more fuel, heavier vehicles, not readily user-servicable (more expensive to fix in general), wastes engine power, cannot be towed, more electrics to go wrong, beggar all engine braking.
The day I want a computer thinking for me, well, it's a long long way off yet.

The "extra traction" supposedly found on those wagons is not done by skilfully putting engine power to any wheel by a driver, but rather stopping (braking) it away from others - so you have <75% your engine working against a braking system - wtf??

I can see no situation I would ever prefer an auto over a manual.

[Crash bandicoot]

In simple terms, yes your prejudice against autos is dated and based on old wives tails from the 1960s and 1970s. Modern autos are equally, if not more, capable offroad. You cannot stall an auto (well, not under normal circumstances). You have the ability to crawl better with easier and more controlled starts. You can up or down shift while wheel spinning in mud without worrying about clutch worries. If you can find an auto that can be controlled to act like a manual (i.e. you can drive it with up/down shifting), that would be a huge benefit than an auto that only has P R N D options - run away from those.

Down side, you have to manage heat in autos. Also, not all autos are equal. Some upshift on their own even though you are trying to hold them down in 1st... Downhill engine braking can be interesting, but if its properly geared it should not be an issue. Besides left foot braking can easily be mastered if required.

Drive a modern auto for a test drive and see what it feels like. What make of 4x4s are you looking at?

Nup.
Automatic transmissions will never allow you to put down torque as usefully as a manual transmission.
Because the wheel speed will increase with the engine speed, it may seem like better low speed crawl control, but the AT will give you 'fake' crawler gears, and never come close to replicating a properly selected differential/gearbox ratio combination.
It is impossible to calculate crawl ratio with an AT because of the constant TC slippage.
Auto transmissions suck engine power.
Auto transmissions cannot provide compression braking.
Auto transmissions cannot be tow started in the event of electrical failure.
A manual transmission harmonizes the operator with the drivetrain and gives total 'feel' of what is going on underneath you.
A manual transmission requires a more skilled operator.
A manual transmission allows the operator to utilise 100% of the torque available and obtain maximum benefits from his differential/transfer reduction gearing selection.

Since my trans is manualised, might shoot a few holes in your argument there Josh.(nothing personal)
the whole point of manualising them though,is so the auto doesn't have a choice but to lock into the gear chosen...it's easier on the CV's too .....no shock loading,
Comppression or (engine braking) is effected by not allowing the over run clutch to do it's job.(once again manualised) older trans have a sprag clutch which would give you no choice but Jatco's run a hydrauilc clutch that locks the out put to the internal planetary drive.
They only suck about 10% of your engine's power...a truck's engine that is 20 years old has probably lost more then that through wear and tear.... (manualised)
Skilled operator... even the best drivers put there trucks on there roof.? it just happens. I put mine on it's side and had nothing to do with what gearbox is in it.
T/C lockup...utilise 100% of the engine's power
feel? line pressure circut disconneted will give you all the feel of a manual, just without the slipping clutch you get with mud and river crossings.

[mudlva]

auto all the way

learn to left foot brake

torque converter allows supper slow crawling with heaps of control

if you can manuelise even better but not the end of the world if you cant

auto will not substitute for poor driving skills although it will help cover it up better

autos do not have water and mud stuck between clutch issues whilst sitting in bogs waiting for winch wench to sort out your recovery string

[KIWI_TERRANO]

To that comment above i can shoot that down to..

My ranger was auto.. Had great engine braking.. Used same if not little more than same spec manual ranger.. Pulled harder than same spec manual model and went a hell of a lot more places off road putting that down to auto as it seemed to lock it self into a sweet spot when climbing rutty very step farm tracks that mate manual couldnt make it up as he kept loosing traction...

And then on roads another story.. Smooth easy to drive and can tickle the missus if you really wanted while your driving

Thats just my 2c i wish that i could run auto in my project

[Gyxx]

I also used to be very prejudiced against automatic transmissions but since I've started using one off-road I've come to prefer them for that application. If we want to get into the whole "auto vs manual" argument we'll be here until the cows come home and you'll find equally knowledgeable and experienced people opining strongly on both sides of the argument. There are pros and cons for both but for me, for the kind of driving I do off-road I believe the pros of an AT outweigh the cons. Bear in mind however that not all ATs are created equal and some are definitely superior to others. Having said all that there are other times when I'd prefer a manual such as when I'm on the road winding my way through hill country and I'd still consider the idea of a "sports car" with an automatic transmission to be a contradiction in terms.

I wouldn't try to sway you one way or the other on your choice of a vehicle with an automatic or a manual transmission other than to say don't let prejudice put you off an AT necessarily. If your keen on a particular model do your homework on it - there are plenty of resources online and if a models more than a few years old any faults will usually be known. Try before you buy and buy what you like and what suits you.

[churchill]

Biggest problem with the manual is the control system, the human. An auto is an automated gearbox so each shift is the same and calculated and very good nowadays. A manual completely depends of the skill, mood and amount of sleep the driver has had the night before. Upshift an downshift is faster and with less thrust loss on an auto and they are starting to get as efficient as a manual. Hill starts don't depend on a hand brake and getting that clutch just right and the direct drive of a manual will break traction faster then with an auto with the TC unlocked. Far better control of crawl and creep with an auto due to idle speed not being the lower limit for speed.

There's a reason ~90% of vehicles are sold as autos but remember when things go wrong it will probably cost more!

[TJ]

Nup.
Automatic transmissions will never allow you to put down torque as usefully as a manual transmission.
Because the wheel speed will increase with the engine speed, it may seem like better low speed crawl control, but the AT will give you 'fake' crawler gears, and never come close to replicating a properly selected differential/gearbox ratio combination.
It is impossible to calculate crawl ratio with an AT because of the constant TC slippage.
Auto transmissions suck engine power.
Auto transmissions cannot provide compression braking.
Auto transmissions cannot be tow started in the event of electrical failure.
A manual transmission harmonizes the operator with the drivetrain and gives total 'feel' of what is going on underneath you.
A manual transmission requires a more skilled operator.
A manual transmission allows the operator to utilise 100% of the torque available and obtain maximum benefits from his differential/transfer reduction gearing selection.

Hmm, personal experience or actual facts? A more skilled operator? Yup, sure whatever makes your ego feel better.

As I said, not all autos are the same. Chose one that is designed for the conditions and you will be pleasantly surprised. JK autos with 3.8l V6 were horrible (2007-2011), but the ones after 2012 behind the 3.6l V6 are something else. I actually do have engine braking, which BTW is not called transmission braking for a reason. Engine braking on tractors (and Nissans) comes from the diesel engine design, you cannot replicate that in a petrol tractor even with a manual transmission. So apples vs apples, not oranges.

As for fuel economy, that is a myth as well. It might have been true in the old days, but with modern 6/8/9 speed autos it has changed.

As for electrical failure and push start argument, unless there is enough life in the battery you can't push start a modern manual either. The argument is for a 35k budget modern vehicle, don't start comparing apples (modern autos / smartphones) and oranges (old autos / candybar phones).

Don't let the transmission be your only dislike for a particular 4x4 make or model, try them as a package and see what you like.

[mudlva]

Just a quick side line about putting power to the ground...
Why do 1/4 mile top end vehicles use autos them?

Maybe its applying friction without overpowering the track. Same theory applies out on the track.
And if autos cant crawl then how come i can still move forward at a duper slow speed without the engine stalling?? Cause the t/c is working

[catalystracing]

Its great to hear everyone's opinions, thats what the forums about
I have had both manual and auto 4wd, given the option to choose my favorite for off road in would be auto.
It surprised me as I was always in the manual camp, Im driving a manual now and that works fine, but if was to build my dream machine, it would be manualised auto.
my 2c worth

[Gyxx]

Anyone else remember back in the day when the old fullas would say synchromesh gearboxes were for nancy-boys who couldn't use a clutch properly?

[catalystracing]

Yup
http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1968hondamatic/

[TJ]

Anyone else remember back in the day when the old fullas would say synchromesh gearboxes were for nancy-boys who couldn't use a clutch properly?

Power steering, what's that.

[wjw]

After 12 years driving autos offroad, I've just gone back to manual, wish me luck.... what made me change my mind???? repair costs!

On the road its great, wish I had done it ages ago... taken a bit of getting used to in traffic, but meh.... feels like I'm actually driving again.

Offroad... well I havent been there yet

[lax2wlg]

Hmm, personal experience or actual facts? A more skilled operator? Yup, sure whatever makes your ego feel better.

Try to keep your pants on this time, soldier.
Its all personal experience and facts, nothing I said is actually an opinion. You're welcome to debate the facts, but theres really no opinion involved. And lets not do the 5-year old thing when someone disagrees with us, okay?

Anyway the difficulty here is that (based on your post history), you have only ever driven/owned automatic Jeeps offroad, so you don't really have the insight that some more experienced people on this forum do. Although you make some reasonably compelling points, your posts sort of read more like a Wikipedia article rather than anything based on comparative experience. It sort of seems like you are trying to convince yourself that you have made the right purchase decisions rather than looking at the bigger picture.

I don't think you really understand the difference that differential/transfer gearing selection will make to a vehicles capability.

As for your comment about never recommending Toyotas or Nissans.... well.... that's just narrowminded arrogance.

[Pedro]

most of the competition guys have autos /manualised, allows gear change on the move without loosing momentum, as for engine braking there is another pedal to the left of the accel called a brake, learn to left foot it, and you have just as much control as a manual, when rock hopping or travelling over uneven ground a good method is to dial up some revs in drive, and then use left foot brake to control the speed, you end up with the drive train loaded and you dont get the bunny hopping effect over lumps,

had a manual cruiser for a few yrs, auto trials truck and now auto disco, never had any drama with run aways or down hill issues,
as for crash starting, maintain the truck and crash starts are not reqd, water and autos dont mix, if water gets into the auto its stuffed, lining held on with water based adhesives, so they dissolve and fall off.

if i were to buy another truck, auto for me.
comes down to what you like driving, and what the missus likes driving if she happy everyone happy.

Pedro

[bombaybasher]

Nothing beats dropping the clutch in third whilst stuck neck deep in a big old mud bog , the harder you drop the clutch the funnier the noises, love to see a nancy boy auto do a nuetral drive out of a hole without dropping it's guts everywhere , on a side note my 9 sec escort runs a 4 speed dog box , heck I still file every second tooth of my synchros in my gearbox in my street car for that good old stomp change butchery

[mudlva]

Ah just to throw another stick into the fire here.
Diesels dont engine brake as good petrols as diesels only stop fuel and have a bounce effect as the compressed air generates a push.
Petrols close off the air supply and this generates a vacuum.

This is why diesels have exhaust and jak brakes

2c's spent

[mudlva]

Nothing beats dropping the clutch in third whilst stuck neck deep in a big old mud bog , the harder you drop the clutch the funnier the noises, love to see a nancy boy auto do a nuetral drive out of a hole without dropping it's guts everywhere , on a side note my 9 sec escort runs a 4 speed dog box , heck I still file every second tooth of my synchros in my gearbox in my street car for that good old stomp change butchery

Haha yep the sound of screeming engines always sounds good

Although the old cogboxes are becoming a lot rearer down the quarter

[Crash bandicoot]

Nothing beats dropping the clutch in third whilst stuck neck deep in a big old mud bog , the harder you drop the clutch the funnier the noises, love to see a nancy boy auto do a nuetral drive out of a hole without dropping it's guts everywhere , on a side note my 9 sec escort runs a 4 speed dog box , heck I still file every second tooth of my synchros in my gearbox in my street car for that good old stomp change butchery

Haha yep the sound of screeming engines always sounds good

Although the old cogboxes are becoming a lot rearer down the quarter

yea....., and dropping the clutch in third is why they are getting rare....

One may figure to change the final drive ratio if 1st and 2nd are too low

[mudlva]

And rearer and rearer
Tis entertaining watching the clutches and drive line exploded as well

[Checkerhead]

Nothing you said is an opinion? All facts Lax? Don't be so righteous.

Automatic transmissions will never allow you to put down torque as usefully as a manual transmission.

Sounds like an opinion to me. Many would argue that the auto puts down the power more "usefully", it has already been stated in this thread and is part of why you see auto in some comp 4wds and drag cars.

'fake' crawler gears, and never come close to replicating a properly selected differential/gearbox ratio combination.

True, but since we are talking about a gearbox not a transfer case or a diff, there is nothing to stop you having an auto (or manual) AND a "a properly selected differential/gearbox ratio combination."

It is impossible to calculate crawl ratio with an AT because of the constant TC slippage.

So? What, you cant write the crawl ratio on your spec sheet at the show and shine?

I travelled Aussie off road for 7 months in a low power diesel manual. Loved it (wanted more power). I came home to NZ and Bought a Hilux with a holden v6 and Auto. I knew I would convert it to manual when money allowed. To my surprise I really liked the auto off road. Personally (assuming the engine makes decent power) I think I will always prefer and auto off road.

If you are talking about a modern auto in a vehicle that makes decent power and you are not concerned with your sporty winding road feel, then I would imagine you would be happy with an auto. But like others have said, I guess they're not all equal, go and drive what ever you're looking at.

[TJ]

Try to keep your pants on this time, soldier.
Its all personal experience and facts, nothing I said is actually an opinion. You're welcome to debate the facts, but theres really no opinion involved. And lets not do the 5-year old thing when someone disagrees with us, okay?

Anyway the difficulty here is that (based on your post history), you have only ever driven/owned automatic Jeeps offroad, so you don't really have the insight that some more experienced people on this forum do. Although you make some reasonably compelling points, your posts sort of read more like a Wikipedia article rather than anything based on comparative experience. It sort of seems like you are trying to convince yourself that you have made the right purchase decisions rather than looking at the bigger picture.

I don't think you really understand the difference that differential/transfer gearing selection will make to a vehicles capability.

As for your comment about never recommending Toyotas or Nissans.... well.... that's just narrowminded arrogance.

I go away for a little while and you are now going personal, rather than presenting opinions or as you call them "facts". Hmm, I must have touched a nerve somewhere.

Just so you are clear:

Fact - noun: something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence : a true piece of information : a piece of information presented as having objective reality

Opinion - noun: : a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing : advice from someone with special knowledge : a formal statement by a judge, court, etc., explaining the reasons a decision was made according to laws or rules


I have absolutely no idea or care to ponder on what you are on about. You obviously can't hold a discussion in a professional manner without name calling. Shows small-mindedness and inability to stop and think before driveling on. So far whatever you have said is your opinion, not facts. Prove it empirically in an objective manner with evidence, I might take you seriously then. Till then, enjoy school holiday.