PTO Winches

[DieselBoy]

I'm putting a little something together.

The50 is getting pretty close to rebuild time, and part of that rebuild is fitting a PTO winch.

I have got my hands on a Cruiser PTO winch.

I also have a PTO that runs off the Suzuki T.Case.

As you can imagine, these PTO's are rare. Like rare as in nobody (even in the states ) was actually sure they existed in anything other than sales brochures.

Thing is, there's no bloody point it siting on the shelf gathering dust.

I want to hear stories of PTO drives that have let go and why.

You hear plenty about winch gear box's that let go, but nothing much about PTO drives lunching them selves.

I have done a bit of googling and not come up with much.

Is it due to the massive reduction gear in the winch that makes it the first to let go usually?? Does the gearing in the winch dramatically reduce the load on the PTO??

Or is the shear pin the ultimate protector of the PTO drive??

What's engineering theory here??

I'm asking as I want to make sure I don't prematurely wreck the precious Suzi PTO and have zip zero info on its capacity.

I know we all used to throw the shear pins out on our Safais and just use high tensile cap screws and the rope breaks instead, or the worm gear winds its way out of the housing

[wjw]

Looks like they only sold in Japan and Thailand... cool tho





Says it can lift 500KG.

[Checkerhead]

I know Klem in Taupo his twisted a Toyota one (or two?) but never broken one. Mind you he has a big winch with a drum that has been made bigger (to increase line speed) and winches in 5th gear with the supercharged lexus. So you expect it to get a tough time.

Most Pto winches sit around the 30:1 reduction so I guess that protects the pto output a bit.

Besides Safari pto driving the worm out through the case you don't really hear of many winch failures either. And the ones you do can largely be associated with heat (ie driving them to fast in a comp) rather than load.

Not sure that was helpful at all, just what I have seen/heard.

[coxsy]

the bronze drive gear wearies out on Nissan pto , if give a impossible pull with solid share pin s the gear box gives out with a bang , Ali case , big surprise .
my PTO the shaft move toward the gear box by 5 mm ,
will investgate at a later date ,
bung on my spare winch anyway,

[wopass]

the bronze drive gear wearies out on Nissan pto , if give a impossible pull with solid share pin s the gear box gives out with a bang , Ali case , big surprise , my PTO the shaft move toward t he gear box by 5 mm will invest gat at a later date bung on my spare winch anyway,

[coxsy]

fixed it a bit to read better

[wopass]

it will be fine bro, the only reason the PTO drive would shit is if the output got locked solid and the engine tourqe ripped the teeth off and buggered it... we both know the little 2 banger isnt gonna do that. and even if it does somehow miraculously damage something... you can rebuild it better than before!!

[DieselBoy]

Yeah, here's to hoping huh!!!!

Looks like I might be missing the dog clutch part that slides on the shaft to engage the drum??

Gonna have a crack at setting the fee spool up via a direct mechanical linkage from the cab, so the dog clutch could be useful

[Big]

Yeah, here's to hoping huh!!!!

Looks like I might be missing the dog clutch part that slides on the shaft to engage the drum??

winch.jpg

Gonna have a crack at setting the fee spool up via a direct mechanical linkage from the cab, so the dog clutch could be useful

were they the ones one trademe a while ago?

[DieselBoy]

Yeah, ex Mikes (Mr Runva and MCC ) winch challenge Hilux, hence the monster oil reservoir on the gearbox

[Big]

Yeah, ex Mikes (Mr Runva and MCC ) winch challenge Hilux, hence the monster oil reservoir on the gearbox

so nothing special but bigger oil capacity ..?

[mudmike]

Think I have a spare dog clutch in my spares if you need one.

[Clint]

I've seen a Nissan PTO box housing break away sideways - one gear wants to climb over the other essentially.

You need to be careful as the PTO is usually driven by a transfer case shaft that can happily deliver way more torque than the PTO box, driveshaft, or winch can handle. Hence the need for a shear pin.

The more reduction you have at the winch the stronger the pull for a given torque at the PTO box. Anything at the winch end (like less reduction or a bigger drum) that gives you a faster line speed at a given load will increase the torque on the PTO drive.

In theory you should have a shear pin of a size & material that fails at a little under the max torque rating of your PTO box. Which isn't rocket science to work out IF you know that torque rating.

Cheers
Clint

[DieselBoy]

Yep, that makes sense. Alter the gearing at the winch end, as in anything that reduces the amount of reduction gearing at the winch end, and it puts more load on the PTO drive.

Unfortunately, no idea what the PTO torque rating is. Probably not much, as the motor is only 540cc

Another question, being that the PTO is Transfercase driven, how does the selection of gears in the gearbox effect things??

For example, if I had the gear box in first, the PTO runs slow, but you get max grunt through system. If you hook 4th in the gearbox, the line speed is awesome, but the engine doesn't have enough grunt to power PTO under load.

Is the PTO under more load when the gearbox is in 1st, or 4th??

[Checkerhead]

Short answer is no.

Your engine develops a certain amount of torque. The gear box is a torque multiplier such that we can use the engine in it's usable torque range. Basically, if your PTO can handle the max engine torque in first gear (max torque multiplication) then it can handle the torque in any other gear, as it is actually seeing less torque.

Note that the above is "looking" from engine to PTO, and assumes that the engine is the limiting factor. "Looking" the other way, winch to PTO is different. Ie a bigger drum will increase the torque that that the winch could place on the PTO. This is no problem IF the weak link is the motor.

In summary. There are a few things you can change that will effect the torque your PTO experiences. Changing to a higher gear is not one of them.

The PTO will experience a higher max torque in 1st gear.

[DieselBoy]

Yep, that makes sense to me. Cheers.

We are dealing with a mighty 539cc (32.9 cu in) three-cylinder two-stroke. Monster power 19 kW (28hp) at 4500 rpm and a whooping torque figure of 5.3 kg·m (52.0 N·m; 38.3 lb·ft) at 3000 rpm.

It's less than not much, but still, who knows what the PTO is rated too.

So basically I have to be careful giving the winch full noise in 1st.

[Checkerhead]

Did they ever have pto winchs on from factory (I realise it's a factory pto output).
If so try to find a rated line pull and then splice a small diameter (6mm?) Bit of rope in to the end of the rope (at hook end) and use this as a fuse while you get a feel for it. Just a thought.

[DieselBoy]

Best info we can find is a cable drum winch designed for lifting that bolted to the rear tray. It was certified to safely lift 500kgs.

Considering the vehicle only weighed in at 680kg, a 500kg lift was pretty good going, before it either lifted the vehicle or dragged it backwards

So no, no actual PTO winch was ever fitted for self recovery purposes.

The output on the end of the PTO shaft on my LJ had a big V belt pulley on it for running a water pump, sprayer or something like that.

Now I understand a bit more about the mechanics of the gearing etc, I think I will just experiment with shear pins until I can get it to winch bellied on its diffs with out popping and take it from there

Now I just need the winch to turn up ........... Mike

[mudlva]

Just throwing an idea out there

Thought about using the pto to drive a hydraulic pump

[Clint]

Mmmm... Hydraulic... A PTO driven hydraulic setup can work real nice - quite a few of the more competitive winch trucks use this. Can be expensive though by the time you get all the bits & pieces to make it work. Space to fit it all in might be a problem in the wee zook too.

To give an idea of the ball park that PTO loads operate in, the aftermarket Aussie made Winch Industries PTO box in my Landcruiser is rated to 90Nm IIRC. It's connected to the common garden Toyota PTO winch as above.

Cheers
Clint

[Checkerhead]

Surely Hydro is starting to add a bit much weight to the 600kg Zook?

[mudlva]

Basic hydro wpuld only need to be extra 20 odd kgs
Add 1 pump are 10ltr oil tank.

Have a winch with controllers all in one unit and shes away.

Set relief valve to low and adjust up to suit pulling power wanted

[Disco Gofer]

Love em. I had one on my 40 Series with a 350 Chevy which I sold last month and mannnn could that winch pull hard and fast as needed. In fact once I left PTO engaged after winching a friend out and it snapped the winch rope and the second time on the Wires at Easter it ripped the winch off the chassis as the new rope was 10mm............snapped the casing. Again I forgot to disengage the box (dual PTO take off as well) after righting a rolled mud truck. It broke the universal as well. Easy to fix and cheap.

[DieselBoy]

I had toyed with Hydraulic a few years ago, but decided on just straight PTO:

Cost - no special tanks and plumbing required. I can butcher it all myself, have welder, lathe, press etc

Simplicity - PTO, drive shaft, winch.

Weight - no need for extra tank and oil etc, just as above.

Going to give it a go and see how it goes