A frame design

[Sausager]

Hey guys

I want to build an A frame for my SJ413. Is there any design parameters I need to make sure of - either to make it legal or to make it easier/nicer to tow? For example, optimum or legal length of the A arms?

I'm thinking 50x50 SHS with some high tensile plates welded to the chassis, some big bolts/quick release pins for pivots and we're away laughing.

Cheers guys!

[chrome]

bit of 32mm grade 500 rebar poked thru the tube crossmember and those big passivated ring pins works well

[Mudde1]

is your 413 road legal?

[DieselBoy]

^^^^ It's not relevant if your going to A Frame it. Get up with the play

[Crash bandicoot]

motor home forums are the best place for ideas

[eins]

^^^^ It's not relevant if your going to A Frame it. Get up with the play

Law has now been tested so in order to not get finned it will need valid registration and wof unless you are towing it temporally on the road. And temporary will not be interpreted as ever once in a while when you go for a 4wd.

Not sure about this but could also be on doggy ground with braking as most vehicles can only tow 750kg max unbraked

[DieselBoy]

^^^^ It's not relevant if your going to A Frame it. Get up with the play

Law has now been tested so in order to not get finned it will need valid registration and wof unless you are towing it temporally on the road. And temporary will not be interpreted as ever once in a while when you go for a 4wd.

Not sure about this but could also be on doggy ground with braking as most vehicles can only tow 750kg max unbraked

Has it??

Not seen or heard of anything about that through the usual channels. I suspect it's just another tall story/rumor with misinterpreted information

A vehicle under tow is a vehicle under tow, no distinction is made about the reason for which the vehicle is under tow.

[Ralfie]

^^^^ It's not relevant if your going to A Frame it. Get up with the play

Law has now been tested so in order to not get finned it will need valid registration and wof unless you are towing it temporally on the road. And temporary will not be interpreted as ever once in a while when you go for a 4wd.

Not sure about this but could also be on doggy ground with braking as most vehicles can only tow 750kg max unbraked

Has it??

Not seen or heard of anything about that through the usual channels. I suspect it's just another tall story/rumor with misinterpreted information

A vehicle under tow is a vehicle under tow, no distinction is made about the reason for which the vehicle is under tow.

An Auckland 4WD Club member has been battling NZTA and Police over this issue recently after getting infringement notice.
The argument, it seems, is that you should only A-Frame for temporary purposes (I.e. broken down) and not a means to transport a vehicle on regular basis.

see Auckland clubs magazine online on their website.

[3VILC]

So your going to take your portable engineers shop with you just so you can weld up an A-frame mount if you break down? Because its just too easy to carry a rope in the boot. Besides if thats the arguement, what about all the motorhomes, that about all the contractors towing utes behind thier machinery.. I'd consider that to be a regular method of transporting the vehicle

[Ralfie]

So your going to take your portable engineers shop with you just so you can weld up an A-frame mount if you break down? Because its just too easy to carry a rope in the boot. Besides if thats the arguement, what about all the motorhomes, that about all the contractors towing utes behind thier machinery.. I'd consider that to be a regular method of transporting the vehicle

Generally those vehicles already have a registration and WoF, unlike most 4WD vehicles that don't have either.

[3VILC]

That much is true..but the law has only ever stated that the towed vehicle must be fit for towing no lose parts etc.. but as usual I think they change the laws to suit themselves, realised we using it as a way to avoid paying licenses probably.
Since your A-framed vehicle has a drawbar, wonder if it could be reg'd as a homebuilt trailer, at least would work for zook since its under 2000kg and doesnt need brakes.
The official A-frame factsheet mostly just wanks on about not fitting A-frames to vehicles with airbags etc makes no mention of what you can and cant tow or how often you can tow it

[mudlva]

Hymm to have A frame brackets installed may then imply that the breakdown was premeditated.

That in it self may also become an issue.
I do agree with the towed vehc weight verse towing vehc weight unless the tow vehc has some form of added brakeing assistance.
Could always pull a starter or ign cable to say it wont start of course to confirm its broken down and now requires A framing. Long bow but heading in the direction of only towing due to breakdown and requiring repair

[DieselBoy]

Funny how these things roll round huh.

People have been A Framing vehicles since the 70s right up to the current day, it's taken 40 odd years before anyone has caused a fuss. It's most definitely not the first time someone A Faming has been under the scrutiny of the law on the side of the road.

Infact I can think of at least two instances where there have been crashes caused by careless driving with a vehicle on a A Frame and nothing was done.

[3VILC]

Havnt read the club article, but it does sound like something fishy is going on there.. as mentioned we've been doing it for years. How would they even determine if you are regularly towing with it..sit outside your driveway and watch you do it 2 weekends in a row, that it your nicked! haha. Cos they havnt got murderers or rapists to catch or anything better to do.
The only arguable point I can see, which is guess most people that do it are probably guilty of..is the towed weight exceeding the unbraked rating of the tow vehicle..which generally even on the heaviest rated towbars is only 750kg

Glad I brought a trailer

[Sausager]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

As far as I was aware, it was/is legal to tow an unwarranted/unrego'ed vehicle. Because if it was completely road legal, I wouldn't be towing it haha.

The only piece of legislation that I can find is this one: http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/facts ... towing.pdf Which mentions nothing about roadworthiness of the towed vehicle. In my head, common sense would prevail. If you're towing a piece of crap which is threatening to fall apart, it's obvious you're asking for trouble. But towing a "decent" vehicle with a working light bar is a different story.

I might email the coppers, see what they reckon. Do we have any cop members on here that could shed their light?

[3VILC]

There used to be another document but can't find it at the moment regarding towing another vehicle which as you say pretty much only says that it must have a visable light board (or factory lights wired through to tow vehicle) and must be in a fit state to be towed or not going to fall apart as you say, and should display an 'On Tow' sign (i think thats an urban legend, in the UK we use them but I dont think I've ever once seen one here lol).
Yeah I wouldn't worry about it, just build an A-frame an tow it anyway..Its still got the old plates by the looks of your pics just leave those on lol.
In the UK it would've been easier, I dont know about these days, but when I lived there 'towed vehicles' didn't have a license, you just displayed the tow vehicles rego on the back of your trailer.

[DieselBoy]

Here's the link to the Auckland 4WD Club news letter with the Article.

Scroll down to KeriKeri Trip Aftermath

http://www.auckland4wd.org.nz/downloads ... 202014.pdf

[3VILC]

Ive tried searching NZTA and nz legislation sites and can't find anything anymore..its a blurred line of useless information. The document used to specifically say as long as it was in a suitable condition to be towed on the road, but now theres no sign of anything like that or anything which states that you can't. It furthermore states that a 'trailer' cannot be a vehicle normally propelled by its own mechanical power that is temporarily being towed so that rules out trying to register it as a trailer. I think they might've screwed us on that one. Im sure theres countless posts on here already where people have stated that vtnz or whoever have said its ok but it seems that may no longer be the case

[DieselBoy]

See, I still reckon he's all good. Courts work on Technicalities and wording.

The ticket says he DROVE the vehicle. The vehicle was clearly under tow. Based on that technicality alone, the case would be dismissed as the ticket was issued in correctly.

Forget about all the other rubbish around the A Frame legalities, the fundimental aspect of the fine is incorrect. The vehicle wasn't being driven, it was being towed.

I don't see how a court or lawyer could see it any other way ???

[derk]

towing your bashed up muddy old de-reged 4x4 around on an A frame with or without stop lights and indicator's is always going to have an element of risk and legal grey area's, you're truck is typically un-WOFed, un-registered and uninsured and most likely going to be liable if something goes wrong and are also left at the descression of Jafa cop's that decide they don't like what they see as that Auck 4x4 club joker copped (no pun intended ) on busy SH1 heading out of Auck , the motor home jokers probably get off a bit easier considering there more likely to be A framing road legal and compliant vehicles

sometimes you've just got to suck up the shit from that cop despite the principle of fighting for your rights (and everyone elses ) its often easier and less stressful to just pay the fine and chances are you'll spend the next 10 years towing your un-registered, un-WOFed, un-insured heap up and down busy SH1 past thousands of Jafa cops incident free

[Sausager]

Well said I think. And with that, let's wrap up the legality side of things.

Back to the design side of things, no issues here, just make something that works? If so, that's easy

[DieselBoy]

True that

Ok, from what I have seen, if the A Frame is to short, there seems to be an issue with the wheels on the vehicle being towed not coming back to straight after a tight turn.

We have an A Frame on our S1 L.R that has worked extremely well for the 30 odd years we have owned it with out any drama. Will get dimensions for ya

[Sausager]

Cheers mate, that's cool as

[Mudde1]

^^^^ It's not relevant if your going to A Frame it. Get up with the play

There was a test case in Hamilton on 22 October 2013. It makes it very clear that A framing an non road legal vehicle is illegal. The only way to override that decision would be to take it to High court and possibly court of appeal.If you would like a copy of the court decision I can send it to you.
Get up with the play.
Tony.

[Swamped]

There was a test case in Hamilton on 22 October 2013. It makes it very clear that A framing an non road legal vehicle is illegal. The only way to override that decision would be to take it to High court and possibly court of appeal.If you would like a copy of the court decision I can send it to you.
Get up with the play.
Tony.

If it was so clearly illegal wouldn't it be clearly laid out in the nzta documentation? Esp given how long ago it was? The few times I've looked for info hasn't yielded anything much useful at all. So I've just done it. Even been pulled over and officer didn't care.

[DieselBoy]

^^^^ It's not relevant if your going to A Frame it. Get up with the play

There was a test case in Hamilton on 22 October 2013. It makes it very clear that A framing an non road legal vehicle is illegal. The only way to override that decision would be to take it to High court and possibly court of appeal.If you would like a copy of the court decision I can send it to you.
Get up with the play.
Tony.

Ok, if that's indeed true, I stand corrected

Post the court decision somwhere we can all have a read of it. It's relevant to quite a large audience

[doddzee]

A vehicle which operates on the road has to comply with all requirements of the Vehicle Compliance Rule 2002 and other relevant legislation to which is a requirement for that class of vehicle at time of entry inspection and continued compliance.

Just because the vehicle is under tow it does not change the class of vehicle or its requirements to operate on NZ roads i.e. MC (Off-road passenger vehicle) must comply with all relevant legislation including WOF / COF / Reg requirements whether under tow or not.

If its doesn't meet the requirements for that class of vehicle then it should be on a trailer.

Anyone a-framing a vehicle needs to operate within the towing vehicles braked/unbraked ratings to which at the most is typically 750 kg un-braked for most light vehicles so even on a Samurai on an a-frame needs a way of activating the vehicles brakes while under tow.

[DieselBoy]

Got a link to that info yo

[Mudde1]

^^^^ It's not relevant if your going to A Frame it. Get up with the play

There was a test case in Hamilton on 22 October 2013. It makes it very clear that A framing an non road legal vehicle is illegal. The only way to override that decision would be to take it to High court and possibly court of appeal.If you would like a copy of the court decision I can send it to you.
Get up with the play.
Tony.

Ok, if that's indeed true, I stand corrected

Post the court decision somwhere we can all have a read of it. It's relevant to quite a large audience

Court Decision is here
http://1drv.ms/1y6A6OR
Tony

[mercutio]

dam windows won't let me open this on a Linux system

can someone post this up as a pdf file cheers