Suspension links

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mudlva
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Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:49 pm

Ok im looking at ditching the std y60 front control arms and going to links.
Been into afwe in mangere to look at rod ends and c.m tubing.
Their rod ends are non grease units
Bigger is always better so was liking a 3/4 x 3/4 ends and weld in ends that is made to suit 1&1/4 x120" tube.
Q1. Is there other suppliers that supply greasable units?
Q2. Do i need to run greasable units?

Im not after cheap but want to spend me coin economically. Looking at 6 sets (2 spares)

Also need to find out angles of joint movement

Arm lenghts
Q3. Bottom arm lenght re squat ratios?
Q4. Top arms ditto?

Im going to keep panhard as cannot work out how to get top arms around drive shaft and sump hazzard areas.
That said im still looking at going hydro steer once budget allows off warren but need to sort out links first

Advice and ideas appreicated

Rohan

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mudlva
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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:10 pm

Ok being doing more looking thinking of bottom arms same lenght as drive shaft.
Is there a percentage ratio for top arms?
Ie 75% 66% etc

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Re: Suspension links

Postby Big » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:26 pm

I read somewhere on here if for a warrant-able truck.. NON greasable joints only.. reason they fail faster i think..I think it was Skidmarks truck build thread.. have a read there

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:33 pm

Big wrote:I read somewhere on here if for a warrant-able truck.. NON greasable joints only.. reason they fail faster i think..I think it was Skidmarks truck build thread.. have a read there


Full trailor queen here bud.

Still after that winch motor end?

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Re: Suspension links

Postby Big » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:59 pm

ah all gud.. i think i'll pass on the motor end as the repaired one going strong.. but dont sell it though :) keep it for parts unless you do want it gone.. wont be for a bit for me though as gotta get to NZ1 next month.. in Blenheim so evey penny needed for that.. :roll: wish lotto investment would mature.. :lol:

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Re: Suspension links

Postby churchill » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:21 pm

Johnny joints are an option if you want greasable units. They use delrin plastic as the bush which is adjustable so any clearance can be taken up.

Something like these:
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/off-road-builder-parts/creeper-johnny-flex-joints-xaxis/flex-joints-by-low-range-off-road/large-flex-joint-weldable-single-adjuster-2-5-8-width-diy-fjl.html

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Re: Suspension links

Postby 4wdstuff » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:27 pm

Hi Rohan,
Should have some of these this week, also the tubing adapters

http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/off-road ... y-fjl.html
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/off-road ... -rh-k.html
Both LH and RH.

I think a good option for the bottom arm is welded at the axle end and threaded at the chassis end.
Dont think you would need spares as they will be bl__dy strong.

Also as they have no give like hiems, it would be hard to do a 4 link with a panhard unless your arms were exactly the same length and parallel otherwise they will bind up, if you can not go double triangle 4 link and have to use a panhard for transverse location then need to go 3 link and panhard, doing this at the moment on the front of mine.

Cheers
Tim

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:11 pm

Hi Tim
Those look the business ah
Are you doing two lower arms and a single top? as a 3 link.

How come std rear 5 links dont bind? Rubber bushings allows for movement maybe?

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Re: Suspension links

Postby De-Ranged » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:34 pm

If the links are parallel (or near too) then there will be little to no bind and you'll need a panhard if there is triangulation looking from above then there is no need to have a panhard as the triangulation does the same thing the bonus of the 4 link and panhard is the top link mounting tabs don't need as much strength (cheaper to build lol) and wear is better

Plot up your angle of side travel if your looking at alot of flex you may out flex JJ's and need Hiems with misalignment spacers cheapest (decent quality) I've found is buying from the states from Ruffstuff.... cromoly treated with teflon lining and you can get weld in bungs for dom tubing (talk to tim he bought in some lengths of this a while back)
If you do decide to run greasable ones go hardened steel they will last best.... I made the mistake of not paying attention when I bought some a while back.... brass and mud don't mix lol the grease just made the mud stick better I'd rather tight teflon ones that wipe the mud off the ball than greaseable ones

Will grab those bits tomorrow somewhere between 10 and 12 at a guess, cheers

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Re: Suspension links

Postby turoa » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:53 pm

IMO I wouldn't bother with flex joints or heims. Ive run heims before and just standard bushes flex just as hard with none of the knocking and harshness of heims or JJ's/flex joints (like o hallarans).

My old landy used to outflex 18" airshox with ln130 rear surf bushes (cause they were free) but have had similar results with GQ patrol bushes :mrgreen:

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:50 am

[quote="turoa"]IMO I wouldn't bother with flex joints or heims. Ive run heims before and just standard bushes flex just as hard with none of the knocking and harshness of heims or JJ's/flex joints (like o hallarans).

My old landy used to outflex 18" airshox with ln130 rear surf bushes (cause they were free) but have had similar results with GQ patrol bushes


Hi Tu.
The problem. Im having is that im chewing the rear control arm to chassis bushes out. Im lucky if i get 2 to 3 hr hard driving out of either side before the bushes end up breaking. Ive tried e.u. plus a.m. bushes with no real differance except price.

Ideas?

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Madaz
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Re: Suspension links

Postby Madaz » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:19 pm

Have you tried genuine bushes?

I ran aftermarket nissan bushes in the back of my hilux, and they were destroyed after a 3 day comp down south, Replaced them with genuine Nissan ones after that, they have had 5 years of abuse and are still fine.

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:04 pm

Madaz wrote:Have you tried genuine bushes?

I ran aftermarket nissan bushes in the back of my hilux, and they were destroyed after a 3 day comp down south, Replaced them with genuine Nissan ones after that, they have had 5 years of abuse and are still fine.


Yep paid shiit loads for them and lasted 2hrs whilst doing the maratoto wires loop.
The bushes ive got in from aussy seem to last a little better but we are still talking single fiquire hours
The novalty of changing the bushes has well worn off

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Re: Suspension links

Postby Madaz » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:18 pm

mudlva wrote:
Madaz wrote:Have you tried genuine bushes?

I ran aftermarket nissan bushes in the back of my hilux, and they were destroyed after a 3 day comp down south, Replaced them with genuine Nissan ones after that, they have had 5 years of abuse and are still fine.


Yep paid shiit loads for them and lasted 2hrs whilst doing the maratoto wires loop.
The bushes ive got in from aussy seem to last a little better but we are still talking single fiquire hours
The novalty of changing the bushes has well worn off


Hell, there must be something going on to ruin them that fast, Maratotos not that bad?

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:37 pm

Yep and its articulation that killing them.
As the axle moves it compresses the bush making the thickness less and overall dia bigger by over 50%. Once the rubber can no longer compress it splits and falls off
The movement also screws the rebate shoulder off as well.
All is std set up apart from ive cut the left arm front leading eye off.
Std springs and shock lenght.
I have grafe the oe mounts etc onto a cut down vx80 chassis paying attention to locations and positions etc.

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Re: Suspension links

Postby Big » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:24 pm

maybe limiting straps..? but defeats the purpose..or shorter shocks ?Im starting to go through front 80 series bushs.. but am swinging towards OEM as the others just dont last.. mm

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:50 pm

Im running std shocks atm...
Currently im thinking that me old arb leave springs flex better with less wear issues.

Altho that said the coils do absorb a lot better than my old progressive leaves.

Im wanting to keep the coils "just because"

Thinking the way around the wear and fustration of these bushes is to ditch the oe and go links of one form or another

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Re: Suspension links

Postby derk » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:25 pm

are all the bushes flogging out or just on the left hand radius arm you chopped up, if your only using standard shocks and aren't using extra travel/flex you could try putting an unchopped radius arm back in that side, must be something going on with the geometry if your flogging stuff out in the matter of hours there's lots of Safs out there that aren't doing that :D

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:46 am

I was advised to chop the left arm as this removed the huge bind up that the 4 diff mount rubbers created.

That said im not "over traveling" as the arms still cannot travel past the shock lenghts.
What the the diff does is one spring fully compressed and the other full droop with out lifting off the ground.

Im now thinking that with the full cage bracing the chassis that im not getting any flex there where as maybe on a std truck the chassis moved a bit to allow for a bit a articulation. Along the same lines as a leave sprung chassis does but not as much.

Going back to 4x rubber mounts will hold the diff from racking and freely moving. I have a spare arm so will mount it up and measure the differance.

Sort of going backwards realy similar to restraint straps

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Re: Suspension links

Postby De-Ranged » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:41 am

It's the torque twisting that is killing your rubber mounts as a general rule of thumb you need 25% of the tyre dia as seperation at the axle between the bottom and top mounts or in your case the front and back on your right hand radius arm because this is doing the job of resisting torque roll of the axle and at 6" of seperation its just not enough ... add in a 350 chev to the miss and there life span is as you said measured in hrs lol
Bad news is you are going to have to put another normal arm back on the left side

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Re: Suspension links

Postby suzolla » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:39 am

Bad news is you are going to have to put another normal arm back on the left side


Or as you started off, go to some form of link arrangement.

You say that it is difficult to fit a 4 link in , presume this is due to it being difficult to get enough angle between the top links for sideways restraint, one way to reduce the angle required between the top links ( so that the axle ends can be further apart to clear the sump ) is to move the chassis end of the bottom links closer together so that you have a 'W' effect, rule of thumb seems to be as long as the sum of the angles of the 4 links relative to the truck axis is greater than 40 deg then it will provide enough lateral ( sideways ) restraint. Drawback is that you will get some bump steer with std steering.

The above was my plan but couldn't make it work so have gone to 3 link plus panhard, not quite finished so not tested yet.

Cheers
Tim

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Re: Suspension links

Postby Craydiver » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:38 pm

Rowan, theres few different sites that can give you good info on your 4 link setups
try Busted knuckle - tech tips on utube - prob the best simple summary you'll find out there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTWZgVx8Y6o
plus also this off pirate
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/suzuki/1 ... build.html, plus lots of other websites with 4 link advice info
Theres also a 4 link calculator you can down load - excel spreadsheet, im an engineer so all these calcs are second nature,
Im in middle of a project winch truck build, full 4 link front & rear,hydro steer etc
Im using the 3/4 by 3/4 AFWE tierod ends after bit of research, top and bottom was looking at Creepers, jonny joints etc, but for a trailer truck with limited run hrs, worst case is to replace the odd worn joint, however note if I have issues, yes will go to the bigger beefy joints from tim. Some simple basics that ive learnt re your 4 link
Vertical separation distance of your lower and upper links ends at axle -25% of your tyre dia
Top link ideally parallel to chassis line
Lower link ideally no more than 10deg down, lower angle better
link lengths -at least 75% or more of diff width. triangulation 45deg or more
the calc helps with al these measurements and things such as anti squat/dive, rollsteer, rollcenter
PS mine yet to be finished, hence until mine works don't quote me""...... advice is free
88SWB GQ TD Turbo, 35's, lockers

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Re: Suspension links

Postby Clint » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:58 am

If it's mainly the front arm to chassis bushes that are giving you grief then threading & rod-ending the existing arms is an option too:

Image

I've got a set each each of greasable & teflon SKF rod end equipped front arms. Rod ends are about $90ea IIRC. Only done about 500 km on the greasable & 1000+ on the teflon, but there's been a reasonable amount of offfroad in that & they are still ok.

Cheers
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If it doesn't break, drive it harder.

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:20 pm

Mate now we are talking...
Ok who did you get the ends from?
What size?
And as the arms where the end fits is a round shaft. Did you get somebody to machine a tread onto it?
Or just weld someting over the top of the existing shaft?

That is prety much along the lines i would like to go as the movement on the diff is fine it just those bloody rear bushes thats the issue

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:30 am

ok just been measuring up an ixisting y60 arm

diff mounts are 240mm c to c apart (9.4")
rear diff mount c to c of chassis mount 700mm (27.5")

currently running 36 simex tyres so minimum diff arm seperation at 25% is 9" so technically thats fine although it is only on one arm not a pair like the four link is

36" tyres on a 100" wheel base is somewhere near the middle so thats good

im not sure on how the control arm works on anti dive but guess it will pull the suspension down potentially giving more traction, but thats only a guess.

ive shown the control arm idea to a mate who has helped out in the build and got his thumbs up of approval

so just waiting to hear back from Clint on how he got the rod ends to fit onto the saf arms

just a bit mo info
the current bush shoulder is 24 dia x 70mm long with a m16 thread x 37mm long

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Re: Suspension links

Postby Rotazuk » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:58 pm

With one of these

http://tradetools.co.nz/products/6455440 - 24mm die nut

And some or these

http://www.partzonline.co.nz/metric-24m ... 17427.html - 24 mm bore rod end .

Bags not turning a 24 die nut thou , they sell them so it must be possible .

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:48 pm

ok looks like the rod ends will be a go'er
ive drawn the unit up on cad and worked out the 25mm unit has a side travel of 15d each way. that initially sound fine.
i have to draw it up, but i wouldnt think my axle droop on one side only would get even close to that type of fiquire.
a couple more questions,

just a on the dienut to form the thread as ive never realy had much luck with them

how do you keep the nut perfect in alignment to the shaft? as just a fraction off then it will not thread evenly

is there a "machine" that could do it? assuming that one could fit the arm into it.

i have no problem in buying the dienut as such but the std turning tool would be huge at a guess (note. and expensive)

has anybody used the rod ends off parts online? and whats their quality like?

is there any body else that supplies that type of rod end?

cheers in advance

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Re: Suspension links

Postby De-Ranged » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:31 pm

I would suggest not doing the die nut... they aren't for cutting threads they are for chasing threads that need cleaned or fixed... I have used them to cut threads in a pinch, the results were serviceable but very ruff and very tight.... use a nut once tight!
Add to this the possibility this section of the arm because it wears in the rubber bush it is more than likely treated or case hardened

I think the cheapest option would be to take it to an engineers who have a large die nut, ring and ask first if they have that size or the bill will include the purchase price :wink: best option would be to machine the tread on a lathe but this would be backward

As for online parts I've dealt with them.... there product is the same as BNT or Apco so not the flashest stuff but not the crap stuff ether
I would recommend using them... they made a mistake with my order and the courier didn't deliver the other half, they didn't qwibble over it new stuff was sent and they personally delivered the replacements to my work in Auckland

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Re: Suspension links

Postby Rotazuk » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:37 pm

I have brought lots of run of the mill parts of Partz on line , water pumps , belts , seals , rotors and pads etc and never had an issue with quality however I am not sure it would be my go to place for rod ends . It was just the first link that showed up in a google search . Interesting to see they look just like Clints with the , what I am assuming is , a nipple on the side of the joint . Could well be fine but never ordered one .

I ordered all my rod ends in from the USA , was cheaper than local and they had all the spacers and "missalignment" spacers etc . I was replacing std suzuki rear arm bushes as they were to flexy/soft and allowed diff roll :( , so needed to pack them out to the same width as I was too lasy to change the existing mounts . As you only need two or three surely you can find them locally .

As for the die nut , never tried one even close to that size . I topped out at 14mm :) . Given the size I would find a socket the size of the nut and get a power bar on it . If thats an option then I would machine up a spacer the size of the socket with a 24mm hole in it . Feed the die nut in the socket and then the spacer , the spacer should keep it straight enough I would have thought . The spacer does not need to be hexagonal , a round one would still space it off ok I would expect . I can't remember if you have a lathe but I can cut one up here if you want . Assuming you dont find a better way to do it .

Cheers
Chris

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Re: Suspension links

Postby mudlva » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:14 pm

Cheers to Reece and Chris

I will stop off at trade tools and discuss the job with them.
Bought plenty off them over the years and always been very helpful. They tend to sell the right tool as long as an acturate discription is given.

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