WAS fume'ing (now more of a flaming thread...)

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WAS fume'ing (now more of a flaming thread...)

Postby wopass » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:17 pm

ok so as not to jack anymore threads and there is a few on here regarding this topic ...so i thought id start another one :lol:

fumagation of the diesel

KiwiBacon wrote:Yep, run lpg into my diesel and it detonates violently.

Presume you guys all know the legality of such systems in this country?


you did it wrong :roll:

and yes, its all certed legal tegal :wink:

and theres a guy in cambridge (among others around the country) who will do the install if you dont know how to and cert it when its done :wink:

and yes it does have near on 1000nm of tourqe, 970 to be more accurate and yes the ratios were correct as i queried him on it :roll:

theres plenty of guys that do and have good results.
Last edited by wopass on Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: fume'ing

Postby mudzilla » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:23 pm

you did it wrong :roll:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:
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Re: fume'ing

Postby vvega » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:06 pm

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Re: fume'ing

Postby KiwiBacon » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:10 pm

wopass wrote:and yes it does have near on 1000nm of tourqe, 970 to be more accurate and yes the ratios were correct as i queried him on it :roll:

theres plenty of guys that do and have good results.


Got a dyno sheet for that?
As I said earlier, to get 1000Nm from a 4.2 diesel you need around 60psi boost. There aren't many single turbos that'll do that, if someone had compound turbos you'd hear about it.
A 4.2 petrol still needs around 40psi to deliver that much torque.

What does lpg detonating inside a diesel engine tell you?
What does the 9:1 compression ratio on cummins dedicated lpg engines tell you?
What does every diesel engine manufacturer say about gas fumigation and warranty?

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Re: fume'ing

Postby vvega » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:17 pm

8 liter petrol can make over 1200 nm on just 14 psi of boost .. just out of intrest
also quite strange i know of a few dedicated lpg engines running over 13:1 static compression ....
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Re: fume'ing

Postby vvega » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:25 pm

LPG Fumigation
Page One



Lately, I've been getting quite a lot of e-mail from folks who are interested in the LPG Fumigation system that I have installed on the Pusher, so it makes some sense to have a page dedicated to that subject, with at least as much as I know about it, and some links to other resources.

What it is...and why:

Simply stated, Propane (LPG) Fumigation is the introduction of gaseous propane into the air intake of a diesel engine for the purposes of attaining more power, economy, or both. The parallel is often made between fumigation and using Nitrous Oxide on gasoline vehicles to achieve a power increase. This analogy is similar, although the properly implemented use of LPG on a diesel engine will actually result in a better-running engine without the possible damaging effects that N2O has on gas motors.

Exhaust emissions are reduced as a result, with lower quantities of unburned hydrocarbons and fewer particulates (smoke). LPG fumigation will even clean up the odor of diesel fuel in the exhaust, making the smell from the tailpipe of an engine utilizing it much less objectionable.

How it works:

Introducing LPG gas into the combustion air intake of a diesel engine acts as an accelerant, promoting the even burning of the diesel fuel, and more complete combustion, resulting in more power being produced. Many web pages and forum posts will call LPG a "catalyst" but this is not correct, as LPG creates no change in the molecular makeup of either the air or the diesel fuel.

Propane by itself resists self-ignition inside a diesel-fuel compression-ignition engine due to it's high flash point and narrow fuel-to-air ratio. During the compression stroke, the air/LPG mixture is compressed and the temperature is raised to about 400°C, not enough to ignite the LPG, which has an ignition temperature of about 500°C. In the small concentrations that LPG fumigation uses, the LPG mixture is not rich enough to be overly flammable and is more difficult to ignite. When the diesel fuel is atomized into the cylinder under high pressure, it immediately self-ignites (diesel ignites at about 385°C.), and causes the LPG to burn as well. Since the LPG is in mixture with the air, the flame front from the diesel spreads more quickly, and more completely, including igniting the air/fuel mixture which is in contact with the cylinder walls, which are cool in comparison to the super-heated air inside the combustion chamber. Much of the cleaner burning of the fuel is attributed to this ignition against the "cooler" components of the engine, and accounts for raising the percentage of combustion from a typical 75% for a well-tuned diesel engine running on pure diesel fuel alone, to 85-90% with the addition of LPG. Obviously, this more complete combustion also gives a nice boost in power, with an accompanying increase in fuel economy and reduction of pollutants.

What to Expect:

OK, here's where we have to draw a distinction between engine types. Normally-aspirated engines require different systems to introduce the gas than do turbocharged engines. The results are different as well.

Normally-aspirated (N/A) engines will realize only a modest gain in power by the use of LPG gas. Displacing 0.5% of the intake air with LPG will result in a small power increase, perhaps 5-8%. Nearly no increase in power will be noted at full throttle, assuming that your injection pump is correctly adjusted already. Attempting to provide more gas to the engine will not increase performance, and will in fact lead to a condition not unlike pre-ignition in a gasoline engine. This has been attributed to excessive peak pressure inside the combustion chamber, and may have a lot to do with the fact that most N/A engines are also IDI (Indirect Injection), which means that the diesel fuel is not injected directly into the combustion cylinder, but instead enters a "swirl chamber" where ignition takes place. The flame front then shoots out of the swirl chamber into the combustion chamber, where it combines with the air (and LPG) to force the piston down in a power stroke. Apparently, these engines have a problem in that the flame front exiting the swirl chamber ignites the LPG/air mixture, all of which burns instantly instead of in a metered, controlled manner as it would during the normal diesel injection window.

I have had satisfactory results on my VW 1.6 N/A engine when adding LPG at a rate of 8-10% of the BTU rating of the diesel the engine is using. It may be possible to turn the fuel up, but I do know for sure that too much fuel does not increase power, and causes the engine to make very unhappy noises.
It's worth noting that if you experience a big increase in power on a naturally-aspirated diesel engine after installing an LPG fumigation system, then you should go back and check to see that your injection pump was adjusted to provide a nearly stoicheometric air-to-fuel ratio at maximum throttle without the LPG turned on. It's possible that the significant power boost you are seeing is due to the engine now being adequately fueled for the first time. The additional BTU content of the LPG is simply being substituted for the diesel fuel that you haven't been injecting all along.

Turbocharged diesel engines are able to realize a significant increase in power by using LPG fumigation. While the usual suggested increase is considered to be approximately 20%, by careful management of the gas introduction, power gains of up to 40% are possible. My understanding is that it is a very fine line between lots of extra power and a dose of LPG that will render an engine scrap metal in a hurry, so consider carefully before you decide to "turn it up".

Turbo engines are by design blessed with a lean air-to-fuel ratio, and can be fed concentrations of LPG up to about 6-8% of the intake air volume. TDI (Turbo Direct Injection) engines have shown dramatic power increases when properly fumigated with LPG, combined with an "Upsolute" chip, or computer engine management upgrade. (Of course, these modifications will void any manufacturers warranties...)

Types of systems:

I am aware of two basic fumigation systems.

The first, I call the "dump" system, which means that you pick a value of propane to feed to the engine, either by calculation, or by trial-and-error, and you simply "dump" it into the air intake. Little provision is possible for correcting gas flow depending on engine load, so the system is probably only optimized for one type of load demand. The advantage is that this type of system can be cobbled to together by backyard experimenters like myself at a low cost. The disadvantages are that you will probably need to error on the side of caution to make sure that you aren't overloading your engine with too much gas, and that the system doesn't compensate for variations in engine speed, load, etc.

The second system is much more sophisticated, and uses a variety of sensors and controls to monitor engine performance and load, and adjust the gas flow to suit the need at the moment. Most commercially available systems will be of this type.

In order to determine the load on the engine in a N/A system, a venturi must be placed in the air intake, as diesel engines have no natural intake manifold vacuum. A sample of the vacuum produced by the venturi is fed to a metering system, either electronic or mechanical, which adjusts the gas flow to suit the circumstances.

Turbo engines have a great indicator of load built in. It's a fairly simple process to take a sample of the boost pressure developed by the turbocharger and use that to control the metering system. Most commercially made systems are designed for turbo engines, both for this reason, and because of the greater power gain that the turbo realizes from fumigation. Since boost is such a reliable indicator of engine load, higher values of fumigation can be realized, with tighter control over the results.
Last edited by vvega on Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: fume'ing

Postby vvega » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:27 pm

LPG Fumigation
Page Four



Calculating the amount of gas to apply:

For the simple dump system on the Pusher, I calculated gas flow in BTU's, since this was about the only way that I could understand how to correlate diesel-vs.-LPG. Here's what I started with:

The Pusher, using a 1.6 liter diesel engine gets around 30 MPG of diesel fuel. A gallon of diesel contains 128,000 BTU's of thermal power. Assuming 60 MPH, the consumption would be 2 gallons per hour, or 256,000 BTU/hr. I was aiming at 10% LPG for a start, so I simply divided 256,000 by 10 = 25,000 BTU of LPG.

Consulting the chart at in the appendix of this section, we see that in order to get 25,000 BTU/hr from the regulator that I planned on using (11" WC), I'd need an orifice of 1.5mm diameter, or a # 53 number drill bit.

Calculating for an ordinary VW Rabbit, which gets 50 MPG, we see that fuel consumption is 1.2 gallons per hour at 60 MPH = 153,600 BTU. 10% would be 15,400 BTU, or about 1.2mm/#56 bit. Using the larger orifice from the Pusher would yield about 16% LPG.

Determining gas rates for turbocharged engines is a bit more troublesome, as there is a lot more air available to add fuel and gas to. What I have been told is that gas pressures can run in the 6 PSI range, with orifices of ¼ to 3/8 of one inch. This is a *lot* of gas, and will require a regulator capable of the increased flow, as well as a much larger storage tank for the gas. See the gas flow calculator in the appendix of this page.

Tuning it up:

Adjusting the orifice and/or gas flow for optimum performance could be tricky. Basically, increase the LPG flow incrementally until you see/hear detrimental effects. The first, and most noticeable is hard knocking, or pinging from the engine. If it sounds like someone threw a handful of ball bearings inside your motor when your turn on the gas, by all means TURN IT DOWN!!! The rattling you are hearing is the excessive peak pressure, and is also the sound of your pistons being turned into molten aluminum. If anything, adding LPG to a diesel engine's intake air should make the engine quieter.

Adding too much LPG can result in your diesel engine's timing being thrown for a loop. The normal injection window of fuel delivery of a diesel engine is that the fuel is metered into the combustion cylinder (or the pre-chamber if it's indirectly injected) in a controlled manner, which is calculated either mechanically or electronically to correspond to the position of the piston during the power stroke. A excess of LPG will upset this fuel-to-piston timing. A combustible air-to-fuel ratio of LPG will be ignited by the very first introduction of diesel to the superheated combustion charge. (Remember, LPG/air mixtures should not normally be ignited by compression temperatures alone. The first atomization of diesel into the cylinder will act as a "spark", setting off the LPG/air mixture.) The flame front of the LPG will contribute to cylinder pressures, and the remaining diesel injected during the injection window will cause the peak pressures inside the cylinder to be overly high, resulting in the "pinging" you hear. This should be avoided at all costs!

Another thing to watch for if your engine has a pyrometer (exhaust gas temperature gauge), is EGT's dropping. LPG promotes more complete combustion, so some of the heat that used to escape through the exhaust pipe is now being converted into mechanical power and transferred to the wheels.

Diesel engines do not react well to LPG fumigation when they are cold. Turning on the gas before the engine has warmed properly will result in rough idle and bogging, or lack of pulling power. Let the engine come up to something near operating temperature before turning on the gas. Another reason to have a dash-mounted control switch.

Exhaust Gas Temperatures:

Before you begin fooling around with any aspect of diesel performance, you should already know the design limits of EGT's for your engine, and have a method of measuring them accurately. This is usually accomplished by the addition of a pyrometer to the exhaust manifold so that the temperature of the exhaust gas can be monitored. EGT's are the best and most accurate method of monitoring the load on a diesel engine, and can be used along with observation of exhaust opacity to determine effects of changes to fueling, timing, breathing, LPG quantities, and other performance modifications to your engine.

The best place for the thermocouple that detects the exhaust temperature on a TD engine is pre-turbo. This will give the fastest response and the most accurate reading. In some cases, it may not be possible to put the thermocouple before the turbine, in which case the reading on the gauge must be corrected by a small factor to allow for the cooling effects of the turbo. Adding 300-400 degrees Fahrenheit to the reading should get you back to the actual temperature of the exhaust.

There are many suppliers of EGT gauges, as well as many manufacturers such as Isspro. Also don't neglect that pyrometers are common in aviation, and gauges used on airplanes are likely to be more rugged and accurate than those used in automotive applications. A good source for used EGT gauges might be your local heavy truck wrecking yard.

What to Expect:

If my experiences using LPG fumigation on a normally-aspirated VW diesel engine are any indication, don't expect a lot, and you won't be disappointed. I don't get any huge surge in power, in fact, it's unnoticeable for the most part. If I'm holding a steady speed and turn on the gas at, say, 60 MPH, I see a gradual increase in speed of about 4 MPH. Someone with better math skills than me calculated that accounting for wind and rolling resistance, the increase in power was about 21%. Since my EV and Pusher are heavy (4,500 pounds, together), and the diesel engine puts out a paltry 52 horsepower, even a 20% increase in power is welcome for passing and climbing mountain passes.

Turbocharged engines will realize a dramatic increase in power when fed an adequate quantity of gas. I've heard stories of long-haul trucks using fumigation burning up transmissions and melting tires after storming up a long steep grade, the rest of the truck's drive train wasn't adequate to handle the power boost the LPG provided. Of course, tweaking the boost pressure, installing a modified engine control management computer chip, and providing intake and exhaust flow enhancements are all a part of race-prep for diesel engines. If you have a turbocharged vehicle, you are probably going to want to look into a commercially manufactured fumigation system to make sure that you get the most from your engine, with the least likelihood of engine damage.

Notes about air flow

Probably the single most important thing you can do for a diesel is to improve the air flow into and out of the engine. This is particularly important in a N/A engine.

Intake Air:

First and foremost, remove any and all possible flow restrictions. Several low-restriction air filters are available, such as the K&N brand filters. Increasing the diameter of the intake ducting is also important. On the VW diesel engines, the "snorkel" which leads into the air filter box is designed to minimize intake noise ~not~ maximize flow. Converting to a larger pipe will mean that the engine has less pulling loss, resulting in more air per piston intake stroke, which means you can stuff more fuel (and/or LPG) into the engine, resulting in more power. Check out the 3" ducting on my engine in the photo above in the "Supplying gas to the Intake" paragraph above. This ducting is fed by a cowl scoop at the back of the hood. I like to think that it at least decreases intake air restriction by allowing the outside air to be a positive pressure.

Temperature of the air is also important. Cooler is better. Cool air is more dense, more oxygen to aid in combustion. The intake end of the pipe leading into the air filter should be supplied with the coolest air possible. Usually, this means from either the grille, a hood scoop or under the front bumper of the car. What you don't want is air that has been warmed after coming through the radiator, in other words, engine compartment temperature air.

Turbo engines benefit from installation of an intercooler, which is essentially an air-to-air heat exchanger that removes the heat produced when the intake air is compressed by the turbine. Cooler boost air will allow greater gains in power through increased fueling, either through adjustment of the injection pump, by fumigation, or both.

Exhaust Gases:

Getting rid of exhaust gases quickly is also very important. Diesel engines do not benefit from controlled back pressure like gasoline engine do. In all cases, larger diameter exhaust pipes are better. Low restriction exhaust manifolds, down pipes and mufflers all add to power and performance, in dramatic ways. Less exhaust restriction is also beneficial to keeping exhaust gas temperatures lower.

If you are trying for ultimate power, a good old fashioned cylinder head port-n-polish of the intake and exhaust ports works wonders.

Other Mods:

Most anything you do to enhance performance will result in the engine running outside of it's design parameters. It may be necessary to compensate for this by adding high performance parts such as racing head bolts/studs, ceramic-coated pistons, additional cooling system enhancements, larger clutch disc and pressure plate, and even a locking differential transaxle to minimize wheel spin. It all depends on how far you intend to go in your diesel power quest. Like anything, the only limit is what your wallet can support!
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Re: fume'ing

Postby vvega » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:42 pm

KiwiBacon wrote:
A:What does lpg detonating inside a diesel engine tell you?
B:What does the 9:1 compression ratio on cummins dedicated lpg engines tell you?
c:What does every diesel engine manufacturer say about gas fumigation and warranty?


A= you have supplied to much lpg .. turn down your supply
B = its probably a industrial engine ...
.Features and Benefits of the LPG-Liquid-Inject System

1. Power—The LPG-Liquid-Inject System shows an increase, typically 10%, over that obtainable from the same engine using petrol as a fuel. The balance in favour of LPG can be increased by increasing the compression ratio (say 13:1 maximum), or adding boost pressure (turbocharger / supercharger) to optimise the higher octane rating (RON) of LPG. Vaporiser systems are normally 15% down on power versus petrol.


C = same as raising the boost and fuel on a stock engine ... but your a avid supporter of that

there are a lot of success sorties out there
perhaps if its not working for you .. perhaps just maybe .. you are doing it wrong .. and please dont be offended but there has to be a reason that you cant acheive what others have ,, perhaps your engine is just not suited for it
there are a LOT of american logging companies running fumigation in there trucks .. and they do MASSIVE miles ... i really cannot fathom them doing it for no reason at all
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Re: fume'ing

Postby KiwiBacon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:44 am

vvega wrote:8 liter petrol can make over 1200 nm on just 14 psi of boost .. just out of intrest
also quite strange i know of a few dedicated lpg engines running over 13:1 static compression ....


That is believable.
The best you get from a NA petrol is about 100Nm per litre of displacement.
8 litres = 800Nm
14psi well intercooled can give you 50% more air density.
150% of 800 is 1200Nm.

Diesels do 70-80Nm per litre NA.
That gives you about 300Nm for a 4.2L engine.
To get 1000Nm you need 3.3 times the air density.
To get 3.3 times the air density you need 60psi boost.

1000Nm at 4000rpm is 418kw.
If someone has 418kw from a cruiser engine then they'd be screaming about it.
My money is still on someone screwing up the drive ratio calcs in the dyno (if indeed it made it to the dyno). Calculating torque from power is very easy but something not many dyno operators seem to get right.


vvega wrote:A= you have supplied to much lpg .. turn down your supply
B = its probably a industrial engine ...
.Features and Benefits of the LPG-Liquid-Inject System
C = same as raising the boost and fuel on a stock engine ... but your a avid supporter of that


A, that's just the volume (noise) control, the fact it can and does detonate shows the damage it can cause.
B, yes it's an industrial engine. The type where fuel efficiency is paramount. You can bet that if they could run higher compression safely then they would.
C, manufacturers raise the boost and power themselves, many have advocated aftermarket turbo kits while retaining factory warranties. But not one of them has offered a gas fumigation kit or warranty support for one.


vvega wrote:1. Power—The LPG-Liquid-Inject System shows an increase, typically 10%, over that obtainable from the same engine using petrol as a fuel. The balance in favour of LPG can be increased by increasing the compression ratio (say 13:1 maximum), or adding boost pressure (turbocharger / supercharger) to optimise the higher octane rating (RON) of LPG. Vaporiser systems are normally 15% down on power versus petrol.


Not sure where that came from, can you point to the source? It is petrol vs lpg liquid injection so it's not quite the same situation as fumigation. Some people have LPG direct injection which avoids pre-ignition by only injecting fuel when you want it to burn.

vvega wrote:there are a lot of success sorties out there
perhaps if its not working for you .. perhaps just maybe .. you are doing it wrong .. and please dont be offended but there has to be a reason that you cant acheive what others have ,, perhaps your engine is just not suited for it
there are a LOT of american logging companies running fumigation in there trucks .. and they do MASSIVE miles ... i really cannot fathom them doing it for no reason at all


Yes there are people using it and getting away with it. But that doesn't make it a blanket safe option, nor does it make sense for the $ you spend for the power gains. When you consider that $/kwh lpg is a lot dearer than diesel it makes no financial sense either (in aussie lpg is really cheap and they get govt rebates to fit the systems).

I'm pointing out the downsides, which most people either completely ignore or just gloss over.
Get it wrong and you can kill your engine quickly in ways that diesel fuelling cannot do.

I get a lot of people telling me that lpg can't detonate in a diesel and it's perfectly safe to just keep pumping in more gas. Surely everyone can see the point in showing these people what the downsides really are and that detonation is very real.

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Re: fume'ing

Postby vvega » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:21 am

ive done a fair bit of tuning over the years .. and detination is a natural part if finding the (petrol based) limit of yoru engine
i use whats called a det set .. i pezo microphone(knock sensor) connected to a filter and a set of headphones
while you can acurately guess what will be "ok" as timing without this little tool (or a stethiscope) you cannot really hear the inaudiable detination which is what kills petrol turbo cars in a matter of minuites

because your "retuning" one would accept that there is risk and there is skill involved in doing it
the risk is really no greater than changing boost or refueling as far as melting bits goes but you are correct in the fact there is risk .. and even more so without the right gear

for proper tuning were limits need to be found i use the following tools
a link det set
a lc1 widebandsetup + perhaps a pyro .. depending on application
and more often than not .. a dyno (mate owns one)

IMO if you wanna play with fume ... i woudl expect you woudl have the same to make sure the lontivity of your engine
and if you have all those things..... the risk is very minimal

that power figure is from a bugati veyron :d

as for screwing up dyno's ... rolling roads gives you at at the wheels ..... hub dynos calculate and there the problamatic ones
really IMO dynos are indicative of power only and i only really use them so i dont have to drive and tuning .. or do stupid speeds on the road ... i think thats there best purpose

i do realise that your probably very familure with d tuning and perhaps not so with petrol
but as far a a petrol engine goes.. these are all normal issue you need to watch when you are tuning so to me.. its normal

something to note was that there are some engines that do not like fumigation at all ... yours could well be one of them

referancing my posts is just google so while usefull its hardly admisable

oh and you do have a good point to make about risk but i would have thought it was a given

cheers
wayne
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Re: fume'ing

Postby KiwiBacon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:48 am

vvega wrote:ive done a fair bit of tuning over the years .. and detination is a natural part if finding the (petrol based) limit of yoru engine
i use whats called a det set .. i pezo microphone(knock sensor) connected to a filter and a set of headphones
while you can acurately guess what will be "ok" as timing without this little tool (or a stethiscope) you cannot really hear the inaudiable detination which is what kills petrol turbo cars in a matter of minuites

because your "retuning" one would accept that there is risk and there is skill involved in doing it
the risk is really no greater than changing boost or refueling as far as melting bits goes but you are correct in the fact there is risk .. and even more so without the right gear

for proper tuning were limits need to be found i use the following tools
a link det set
a lc1 widebandsetup + perhaps a pyro .. depending on application
and more often than not .. a dyno (mate owns one)

IMO if you wanna play with fume ... i woudl expect you woudl have the same to make sure the lontivity of your engine
and if you have all those things..... the risk is very minimal

that power figure is from a bugati veyron :d

as for screwing up dyno's ... rolling roads gives you at at the wheels ..... hub dynos calculate and there the problamatic ones
really IMO dynos are indicative of power only and i only really use them so i dont have to drive and tuning .. or do stupid speeds on the road ... i think thats there best purpose

i do realise that your probably very familure with d tuning and perhaps not so with petrol
but as far a a petrol engine goes.. these are all normal issue you need to watch when you are tuning so to me.. its normal

something to note was that there are some engines that do not like fumigation at all ... yours could well be one of them

referancing my posts is just google so while usefull its hardly admisable

oh and you do have a good point to make about risk but i would have thought it was a given

cheers
wayne


Sounds like we're back on the same page.

The typical response I get to detonation on lpg is "oh just turn it down till you can't hear it". Just because you can't hear it doesn't make it okay. By the time you can hear it on a running diesel you've got a thousand little goblins in there with pointed hammers.
Turning it down till you can't quite hear it probably means 500 goblins.

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Re: fume'ing

Postby wopass » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:29 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

i guess that all the guys that use fumagation very succesfully are just lucky then eh

what would they know...dumb experts that spend millions of dollars in research...should have just come to see you for the answers :roll:
If you already know everything, DON'T ask bloody questions!!

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Re: fume'ing

Postby KiwiBacon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:16 am

wopass wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

i guess that all the guys that use fumagation very succesfully are just lucky then eh

what would they know...dumb experts that spend millions of dollars in research...should have just come to see you for the answers :roll:


I haven't seen a gas fumigation system yet that would have a million in research spent.
The companies that spend billions know it's a bad idea.

Yes they are lucky. But many out there haven't been lucky. Here's a pic from an "unlucky" diesel engine which ran too much gas.
Image

Now, about this 970Nm cruiser. 1HD-T?

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Re: fume'ing

Postby Jafa » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:50 am

Bah!, that polish out! :lol: :lol:
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Re: fume'ing

Postby mudzilla » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:12 pm

Jafa wrote:Bah!, that polish out! :lol: :lol:


Read that somewhere before,, Is that the Motto down your way :lol:
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Re: fume'ing

Postby Steve_t647 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:21 pm

In Europe all the new commercial trucks and buses have had to go to this sort of system to reduce emissions, the added power is a bonus for them. The newest standards for comercial trucks in europe require them to run three fuel tanks, One Diesel, One Eurea and one LPG to pass current new vehicle emissions.

The Auckland bus fleet trial converted a dozen to running computer controlled continuous LPG fumigation (from Aussie) for clean green buses but had to remove the system because it was too much power for some drivers (accidents, tickets and complaints) and they were going through the brakes so now they are running LPG buses.

LPG, due to its higher octane rating, allows compression ratios up to 13:1 withoput detonation with consequent higher efficiency. I have seen a couple of diesels running this in Aussie and in europe because of their "green air" standards newer trucks run it for the emission standards.
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Re: fume'ing

Postby wopass » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:34 pm

KiwiBacon wrote:Yes they are lucky. But many out there haven't been lucky. Here's a pic from an "unlucky" diesel engine which ran too much gas.
Image

Now, about this 970Nm cruiser. 1HD-T?


as you said too much gas

if you do it RIGHT(like we and many others did) it works well

and about that 970nm cruiser...its O for Orsum to drive and pulls like a Uni grad who just finished his degree :lol:
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Re: fume'ing

Postby wopass » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:37 pm

Jafa wrote:Bah!, that polish out! :lol: :lol:



hahahhaha :lol: quick polish up and bang it back in with some more fuel it will be sweeeet!!! :lol:
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Re: fume'ing

Postby vvega » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:13 pm

KiwiBacon wrote:
vvega wrote:i know some stuff and have done some things


Sounds like we're back on the same page.

The typical response I get to detonation on lpg is "oh just turn it down till you can't hear it". Just because you can't hear it doesn't make it okay. By the time you can hear it on a running diesel you've got a thousand little goblins in there with pointed hammers.
Turning it down till you can't quite hear it probably means 500 goblins.

hence the point of the det set.. you can hear normally inaudiable det with them so you have no goblins
like everything as you know its how you aproach it
if you have the fueling fundimentals sorted and the right gear .. there really is no risk
if your doing it in ya backyard at home and dial it in conservitally .. you have a little risk
if your greeddy for power .. you really have no chance ... and i really think that this is the most comon denominator

its not different for tuning ...im sure know of a millon cars with links etc that drive like bags of shit because simply put the man behind the programming had no idea
yet my truck drives like factory idles @ 500 rpm and in 3rd gear up a incline will pull from idle without hesitation without pinking its face off(when its runnign 98) and drives like a factory car

i think as with anythign like this its not really just the application of the tech ... its also the person applying the tech

i will say somethign though
id really incorage you to buy a det set form link... you will spend the first month or so just listing to your engine .. it really is a life saving tool

is fume a viable .. yes application dependant
is fume dangerious to your engine... yes dependant on whos applying it
can it be worth while .. most definatly ... but its probably bent left to a expert to install and tune the system
just my thoughts

hope that helps
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Re: fume'ing

Postby KiwiBacon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:19 pm

Steve_t647 wrote:In Europe all the new commercial trucks and buses have had to go to this sort of system to reduce emissions, the added power is a bonus for them. The newest standards for comercial trucks in europe require them to run three fuel tanks, One Diesel, One Eurea and one LPG to pass current new vehicle emissions.

The Auckland bus fleet trial converted a dozen to running computer controlled continuous LPG fumigation (from Aussie) for clean green buses but had to remove the system because it was too much power for some drivers (accidents, tickets and complaints) and they were going through the brakes so now they are running LPG buses.

LPG, due to its higher octane rating, allows compression ratios up to 13:1 withoput detonation with consequent higher efficiency. I have seen a couple of diesels running this in Aussie and in europe because of their "green air" standards newer trucks run it for the emission standards.


Got a link for this? All the major engine makers are meeting euro 5 without needing any of that. The urea bluetec system is only used by some manufacturers, mercedes being probably the highest profile.

According to Volvo they've been meeting euro 5 since 2005.
http://www.volvo.com/NR/rdonlyres/8F780 ... _05008.pdf
Scania only use EGR and SCR to meet euro 5.
http://www.scania.com/Images/P08903EN%2 ... 215942.pdf
Mercedes Actros trucks only list SCR:
http://www.mercedes-benz.com/content/me ... 0pages.pdf
Last edited by KiwiBacon on Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: fume'ing

Postby KiwiBacon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:22 pm

wopass wrote:as you said too much gas

if you do it RIGHT(like we and many others did) it works well

and about that 970nm cruiser...its O for Orsum to drive and pulls like a Uni grad who just finished his degree :lol:


Good to see you guys acknowledge what's possible.
There's far to much of the "do it, do it, do it" without warning of what can happen if it's done wrong. So I instill some balance.

I'm still calling BS on the 970Nm :wink:
Last edited by KiwiBacon on Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: fume'ing

Postby Sadam_Husain » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:25 pm

Image

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Re: fume'ing

Postby coxsy » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:27 pm

there is a aussie company who does the gas fog kits seen it a a 4wd action mag, so they must have their shit together to run a buisness doing it :D :D
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Re: fume'ing

Postby wopass » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:07 pm

KiwiBacon wrote:
wopass wrote:as you said too much gas

if you do it RIGHT(like we and many others did) it works well

and about that 970nm cruiser...its O for Orsum to drive and pulls like a Uni grad who just finished his degree :lol:


Good to see you guys acknowledge what's possible.
There's far to much of the "do it, do it, do it" without warning of what can happen if it's done wrong. So I instill some balance.

I'm still calling BS on the 970Nm :wink:


no we are saying its done, not possible but done. many times over. none of this "you will kill your engine" shite :roll:

you can call what ever you like it remains the same and theres more than just one (my dads)4.2dt thats poking out the same if not more than that. just because you cant get the results and all the numbers dont think you can do it...doesnt mean the rest of us cant. look at the humble bumble, he shouldnt be able to fly...but he does it with ease :wink:
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Re: fume'ing

Postby KiwiBacon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:27 pm

wopass wrote:you can call what ever you like it remains the same and theres more than just one (my dads)4.2dt thats poking out the same if not more than that. just because you cant get the results and all the numbers dont think you can do it...doesnt mean the rest of us cant. look at the humble bumble, he shouldnt be able to fly...but he does it with ease :wink:


So now we've got two 4.2 diesels putting out over 1000Nm?
I'm still calling BS.

I don't think you appreciate the true nature of your claims.
For a start you'd be lighting up tyres in 4th gear.
You'd be delivering around 400kw and would be worshipped worldwide as a diesel tuning master.
This will require a monster turbo setup.
A pump built from god-knows what as no production pump that in any way bolts to an engine that size can deliver those flows.
And don't forget the wizard to get it all working.
Don't forget that nothing in the stock drivetrain will handle that.

Andy from Dieseltec (a diesel wizard) reckons he can get 130kw from a 1HD with the stock turbo.
You're claiming three times that.
What's the secret?

I'm guessing the secret is a badly calibrated dyno. See 2000Nm isn't hard if you get the calcs wrong.

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Re: fume'ing

Postby Jezza » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:00 pm

KiwiBacon wrote:
Steve_t647 wrote:In Europe all the new commercial trucks and buses have had to go to this sort of system to reduce emissions, the added power is a bonus for them. The newest standards for comercial trucks in europe require them to run three fuel tanks, One Diesel, One Eurea and one LPG to pass current new vehicle emissions.

The Auckland bus fleet trial converted a dozen to running computer controlled continuous LPG fumigation (from Aussie) for clean green buses but had to remove the system because it was too much power for some drivers (accidents, tickets and complaints) and they were going through the brakes so now they are running LPG buses.

LPG, due to its higher octane rating, allows compression ratios up to 13:1 withoput detonation with consequent higher efficiency. I have seen a couple of diesels running this in Aussie and in europe because of their "green air" standards newer trucks run it for the emission standards.


Got a link for this? All the major engine makers are meeting euro 5 without needing any of that. The urea bluetec system is only used by some manufacturers, mercedes being probably the highest profile.

According to Volvo they've been meeting euro 5 since 2005.


Wouldn't mind knowing what company uses LPG, I've never heard of it.
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Re: fume'ing

Postby wopass » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:11 pm

never said anything about KW ( i think that was 120?) :roll:

and it would make my 350chev powered 40 look so stupid down the 1/4 it wouldnt be funny :lol: ..actualy that is kinda funny :lol: :lol:

ohh and i do appreciate the nature of my claims :wink:

how many winch comp trucks running 4.2dt engines, nissan and yota poking out similar figures ?... a few. in fact i think my CLAIMS are quite docile compared to some.
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Re: fume'ing

Postby smurf182 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:27 pm

wopass wrote:look at the humble bumble, he shouldnt be able to fly...but he does it with ease :wink:


Urban myth

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/5400/title/Flight_of_the_Bumblebee

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Re: fume'ing

Postby KiwiBacon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:37 pm

wopass wrote:never said anything about KW ( i think that was 120?) :roll:

and it would make my 350chev powered 40 look so stupid down the 1/4 it wouldnt be funny :lol: ..actualy that is kinda funny :lol: :lol:

ohh and i do appreciate the nature of my claims :wink:

how many winch comp trucks running 4.2dt engines, nissan and yota poking out similar figures ?... a few. in fact i think my CLAIMS are quite docile compared to some.


There is a set relationship between power, torque and rpm.
1000Nm at 4000rpm is over 400kw.
1000Nm at 2000rpm is over 200kw.

There are no comp trucks putting out those figures. There are a few putting down 200kw and 600Nm and have a monumentous amount of work put into them.
The gulf between 600Nm and 1000Nm is huge. In fact it's a whole nother mildly tweaked 1HD-T.

Got proof or just hot air?

If you have 120kw at 3500rpm then you have a paltry 327Nm.
That's exactly what toyota claims stock. :lol:

http://specs.amayama.com/specs-toyota-l ... -may/8736/

I have another couple of questions for you.
Did you need lots of gas injection to get back to stock power levels?
Did you ever feel a truck with 1000Nm should take less than 20 seconds to reach 100km/h?
:lol:
Last edited by KiwiBacon on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: fume'ing

Postby vvega » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:45 pm

i dont think hes metioned at what rpm so i think its a little unfair to be making such asumption's
he might have 120kw @ 1000 rpm ....
i think the point of the threed was you told someone that there fume will make your truck blow up .. and right now that is simply untrue
its not the fume that makes it blow up its poor setup and poor tuning
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