Another Hilux with starting issues

elvis
Bush Crasher
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 pm
Location: christchrch

Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby elvis » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:29 am

Hey guys im having problems with my hilux(ln106)starting when its cold.This happens every winter since ive owned the truck(4 years) so ive replaced a bit over the years.the annoying thing is once its warm truck will start straight away and crank over like a trooper.
1st start up of the day Ute is cranking over really slowly like it has a flat battery.
i have replaced battery 600cca (2nd one in 3 years) have taken it back and got it tested and have also swapped batterys in another work ute.I have checked/cleaned up all wire connections and also added another earth from battery to block.The lead from battery to starter motor has been replaced as well as lead from alternator to battery.have replaced alternator and voltage regulator,glow plugs and glowplug relay. have had starter motor rebuilt and took it out last week to check brushes and contacts all look good, and bench tested fine. I have tested for anything draining the battery over night and theres nothin.If i leave a battery charger on over night she will start straight away in the morning and at the moment i have to jump start her in the morning i have bridged the the two wires in the starter relay to rule out ignition and truck still cranks slowly.
Any suggestions on what to look at next would be greatly appreciated
cheers troy

philux
Hard Yaka
Posts: 404
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:00 pm
Location: Kaiapoi/Christchuch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby philux » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:31 pm

is the glow system working correctly? glow timer working correctly pulling in the glow relay giving the correct voltage to the glow plugs, and glow plugs getting hot not just getting 12v?

User avatar
catalystracing
Hard Yaka
Posts: 820
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:14 am
Location: within the matrix

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby catalystracing » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:52 pm

^^^ wot he said, winter will show up the glow system for sure.

User avatar
Crash bandicoot
Hard Yaka
Posts: 2924
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:19 pm
Location: Towing a hilux

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby Crash bandicoot » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:58 pm

yeah if the glow relay is giving issues such as voltage etc it will draw away current from the starter..it is after all powering an element almost the equivalent of what you find in your kitchen jug.
Waiter...there is a drought in my glass.

elvis
Bush Crasher
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 pm
Location: christchrch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby elvis » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:16 pm

Thanks for the info guys to test they are getting hot do i remove them and connect to a battery(positive to bolt tip and run a negative to the thread that screws into the block) have measured voltage at relay and where wire bolts onto the glowplug rail both seem ok at 12.7 v.and voltage stops when i here a click from timer.
tommorow morning when she doesnt start could i disconnect glowplug relay and see if she cranks over any faster?
cheers troy

nzlux
Hard Yaka
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:50 pm
Location: Whangarei

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby nzlux » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:27 pm

Just a thought what grade oil are you using and have you added any stop leak etc to thicken the oil?

elvis
Bush Crasher
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 pm
Location: christchrch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby elvis » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:32 pm

Hey im running shell rimula 15w-40 with no additives cheers troy

User avatar
tweake
Hard Yaka
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:00 pm
Location: start of northland

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby tweake » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:52 pm

elvis wrote:If i leave a battery charger on over night she will start straight away in the morning and at the moment i have to jump start her in the morning


this sounds like battery problem or the battery is being drained overnight.
batteries perform worse in the cold so that doesn't help.

you could try disconnecting battery at night, reconnect in morning and see how well it cranks over.

slidenyo
Hard Yaka
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Hamz remotely on topic

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby slidenyo » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:21 pm

extreme cold would see oil thickening an air density come into play,
I think that's why they run oil heaters/block warmers and such on machinery exposed to those conditions regularly.
I think of it as your truck is injesting a gutsful of the coldest most frozen air,
which is quite dense then mixing it with fuel and trying to compress it until it combusts.
so your air fuel ratio is going to be quite a way out of whack until some heat soaks through the engine and manifold to thin it out a bit.
as an experiment run a hair dryer into your inlet on a cold morning and see if its hesitant to start
problems are only a problem if you not willing to learn how to find solutions

User avatar
trucked
Hard Yaka
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Christchurch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby trucked » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:47 pm

tweake wrote:this sounds like battery problem or the battery is being drained overnight. batteries perform worse in the cold so that doesn't help.

you could try disconnecting battery at night, reconnect in morning and see how well it cranks over.

I would have to agree here, seems more like a parasitic drain that's enough to drain it overnight but not to extreme to do it during the day with the top up to the battery from the alternator when its running.

Have you tried what tweake mentioned above? disconnect the battery overnight and then try start it in the morning.

Did it only give you this grief over winter? or if you left it for a weekend over summer?

elvis
Bush Crasher
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 pm
Location: christchrch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby elvis » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:30 pm

hey guys I've disconnected the battery so we will see how she starts in the morning. Trucked it has done it a few times in summer if left for a few days, I always thought I must of left the lights on or something cheers for the ideas would be great to have a truck that starts 1st time every time.

User avatar
trucked
Hard Yaka
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Christchurch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby trucked » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:08 pm

elvis wrote:hey guys I've disconnected the battery so we will see how she starts in the morning. Trucked it has done it a few times in summer if left for a few days, I always thought I must of left the lights on or something cheers for the ideas would be great to have a truck that starts 1st time every time.


Sounds quite like a parasitic drain to me, can you also put a multi meter over the battery tonight and again in the morning to see if the battery is holding charge as well, constant flattening like that i dont think is overly flash for batteries.

User avatar
tweake
Hard Yaka
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:00 pm
Location: start of northland

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby tweake » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:09 pm

slidenyo wrote:extreme cold would see oil thickening an air density come into play,
I think that's why they run oil heaters/block warmers and such on machinery exposed to those conditions regularly.
I think of it as your truck is injesting a gutsful of the coldest most frozen air,
which is quite dense then mixing it with fuel and trying to compress it until it combusts.
so your air fuel ratio is going to be quite a way out of whack until some heat soaks through the engine and manifold to thin it out a bit.
as an experiment run a hair dryer into your inlet on a cold morning and see if its hesitant to start

not on a diesel.

cold does play a big part but its about the temp the air in the engine gets to when its compressed on the compression stroke. a cold engine wicks away a lot of the heat generated from the compression. having stone cold air cooling the engine internal makes it worse.
hence why they have glow plugs and some even have manifold heaters.
a hair dryer will help, just not for the reasons you said.

old boy used to light a rag and place it in front the air intake. that made the old clunker 2 cyl diesel fire up.

slow turning engine on startup doesn't help or a worn one with low compression.

you can also get problems in really cold weather when you don't have enough load on the motor to be able to burn enough fuel to keep the engine hot enough to ignite the fuel properly.
even with modern diesels some have issues like not producing enough heat to get the heaters in the cab to work. manufactures have to resort to fitting electric heaters.

User avatar
Petemcc
Hard Yaka
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: Queenstown

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby Petemcc » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:49 am

anyone know what sort of current draw is acceptable when the key is off. There will be a bit for the radio and I think my winch wireless remote thing draws a little. I'm getting about 10mA is that too much?

elvis
Bush Crasher
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 pm
Location: christchrch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby elvis » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:46 am

Battery was 12.70 volts last night and 12.69 volts this morning truck still not starting. truck cranks slow when i bridge starter motor relay so does that rule out glow plugs? cheers for the ideas guys keep them coming.

User avatar
trucked
Hard Yaka
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:34 pm
Location: Christchurch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby trucked » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:07 am

Petemcc wrote:anyone know what sort of current draw is acceptable when the key is off. There will be a bit for the radio and I think my winch wireless remote thing draws a little. I'm getting about 10mA is that too much?

10 milliamp's is next to nothing and perfectly fine.

elvis wrote:Battery was 12.70 volts last night and 12.69 volts this morning truck still not starting. truck cranks slow when i bridge starter motor relay so does that rule out glow plugs? cheers for the ideas guys keep them coming.

Battery voltage looks good and if the glows are working all right, have you tried a different known to be good starter motor? even with the rebuild it still might have a unknown fault or bad contact somewhere in it. I have an spare one here if you want to borrow it, its not the best sounding starter but it did start without issues until i replaced it with a new one.

User avatar
tweake
Hard Yaka
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:00 pm
Location: start of northland

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby tweake » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:01 pm

have you checked the earths? battery earth but also block to chassis earth.
if it turns over nice after battery is charged up, which gives it slightly higher voltage for a little while, your probably loosing some voltage on a cable or earth.

the other thing, if you do not glow it at all and crank it over, doe it crank ok?
i wonder if you have an injector dripping or oil in it and its igniting before the injection making it kick back a bit.

elvis
Bush Crasher
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 pm
Location: christchrch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby elvis » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:22 pm

Ive borrowed a starter motor I'm on my way out to put it in and well see if that helps, i have cleaned up all the earths and run an extra earth from the battery to the block with no luck.how would i check for leaking injector or oil? cheers troy

likemagic
Bush Crasher
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby likemagic » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:38 pm

Check your oil level, and make sure you have the right grade of oil.

The first number needs to be low for cold starting and the second number should be what is recommended for the engine for 1kz is 40.

The recommended is 15w-40 but if it is really cold you could go to 10w-40.
Maurice
KZN185, 1KZTE running needing birthday

slidenyo
Hard Yaka
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Hamz remotely on topic

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby slidenyo » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:13 am

get the battery load tested it could have just dropped a cell,
what temp is the air when you get up -2 degrees?
when do you turn the truck off the prior night ie is the block retaining any heat overnight?
when the truck is running, the air is getting preheated through heatsoak which is normal, which in turn will have some effect on the airs density ie hotter = thinner /colder = denser.
so by this when an engine is running it is regulating the density of its own air supply due to the heatsoak in the engine.
For instance leave your truck idling in the drive for ten minutes till the windows clear and it will generally behave quite well.
as the block is heating up the coolant will be flowing and the intake air will be getting thinned out by its passage through the engine.
but if you set off straight away generally the truck will run rough right?
so the difference is you have an intake charge at -2 degrees compared to one of say 20-60 degrees.
that's a big temperature differential which is directly relative to a big density differential.
so first thing in the morning with a dead cold engine you may need to glow the truck a few times before the air in the cylinders is at optimum temperature/density for combustion.
I like to flick the key between glows also so that you open up another cylinder or two before re-glowing.
cold mornings mean dense air which will literally try to hydraulic your engine on starting.
our old ld powered waterblaster was a good case in point you could not start it on a cold morning with the oil cap on,
rings were pretty shot so it'd hydraulic most of its compression stroke into the crankcase which along with slowing the rotation would force oil past the stem seals etc an onto the cylinders. no way to run start a stationary engine :roll:
problems are only a problem if you not willing to learn how to find solutions

User avatar
tweake
Hard Yaka
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:00 pm
Location: start of northland

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby tweake » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:13 pm

slidenyo wrote:when the truck is running, the air is getting preheated through heatsoak which is normal, which in turn will have some effect on the airs density ie hotter = thinner /colder = denser.
so by this when an engine is running it is regulating the density of its own air supply due to the heatsoak in the engine.
.......... and the intake air will be getting thinned out by its passage through the engine.
but if you set off straight away generally the truck will run rough right?
so the difference is you have an intake charge at -2 degrees compared to one of say 20-60 degrees.
that's a big temperature differential which is directly relative to a big density differential.

fancy sounding tech that doesn't mean anything.

air temp doesn't change a whole lot in the manifolds. airflow is to big and surface area to small.
the difference in air density is bugger all, makes very little difference and it runs better not worse.

User avatar
NJV6
Hard Yaka
Posts: 2749
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Southland
Contact:

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby NJV6 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:57 pm

My ln106 is the same, slow/just turns over from cold.

New 750cca battery + jumper leads = no difference. Also checked earths + added others.

Needs rolled down hill to start on a frosty morning as simply won't turn over enough.
SWB V6 Paj with one or two mods ;)

User avatar
tweake
Hard Yaka
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:00 pm
Location: start of northland

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby tweake » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:10 pm

how cold is it?

nzlux
Hard Yaka
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:50 pm
Location: Whangarei

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby nzlux » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:53 pm

You could always move north :D

My LN106 2.8 diesel starts after one glow and a flick of the key, it does however live in a garage in Northland and was rebuilt 5,000 kms ago.

slidenyo
Hard Yaka
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Hamz remotely on topic

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby slidenyo » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:43 pm

tweake wrote:
slidenyo wrote:when the truck is running, the air is getting preheated through heatsoak which is normal, which in turn will have some effect on the airs density ie hotter = thinner /colder = denser.
so by this when an engine is running it is regulating the density of its own air supply due to the heatsoak in the engine.
.......... and the intake air will be getting thinned out by its passage through the engine.
but if you set off straight away generally the truck will run rough right?
so the difference is you have an intake charge at -2 degrees compared to one of say 20-60 degrees.
that's a big temperature differential which is directly relative to a big density differential.

fancy sounding tech that doesn't mean anything.

air temp doesn't change a whole lot in the manifolds. airflow is to big and surface area to small.
the difference in air density is bugger all, makes very little difference and it runs better not worse.


-correct in an engine that is running or has recently been running to the point that the heatsoak has dissipated.
-air density/temp from a cold started engine and one that's recently been run are vastly different.
-that's why you should always compression test on a warm engine.
-density difference is precisely why an engine that is running will run better when its colder ambient temps but also why the engine is slow to start on a cold morning.
-denser air increases your compression within the cylinder to the point it slows the engines rotation down as each cylinder approachs the point of combustion

next time you get up in the morning drive down the road at 100k with you hand out he window you'll notice the dense cold air will place more force on your hand than if you do it on a warm afternoon.
the same thing is happening in a cold started engine compared to one that's recently been started.
the cold air inside is taking more force to compress it.

don't 4m40's run an intake heater? surely grabbing one from the wrecker and running it on a switch over winter would be a good experiment
problems are only a problem if you not willing to learn how to find solutions

User avatar
tweake
Hard Yaka
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:00 pm
Location: start of northland

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby tweake » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:46 pm

slidenyo wrote:-denser air increases your compression within the cylinder to the point it slows the engines rotation down as each cylinder approachs the point of combustion

it would be interesting to do the math but it should be very minor. otherwise everyone would be complaining their diesels don't start in the cold.
the starter motors have enough grunt to handle any increases.

next time you get up in the morning drive down the road at 100k with you hand out he window you'll notice the dense cold air will place more force on your hand than if you do it on a warm afternoon.

you won't notice a thing because your hand would be frozen! :lol:

User avatar
smurf182
Hard Yaka
Posts: 590
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:00 pm
Location: Auckland

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby smurf182 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:52 pm

slidenyo wrote:-that's why you should always compression test on a warm engine.


I reckon this has almost nothing to do with intake air temps and is mostly about pistons etc expanding with heat into their correct tolerances and hence sealing against the bore.

You are probably over estimating the effect of air temp, the difference in density between air of 0 degC and 30 degC is a couple of percent.

User avatar
Petemcc
Hard Yaka
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: Queenstown

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby Petemcc » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:10 pm

NJV6 wrote:My ln106 is the same, slow/just turns over from cold.

New 750cca battery + jumper leads = no difference. Also checked earths + added others.

Needs rolled down hill to start on a frosty morning as simply won't turn over enough.


Well I'm glad it's not just mine that's a prick. However mine works a treat with jumper leads... well it does start. If somebody sorts this out then be sure to let us know! Maybe it's just a lack of compression thing?

User avatar
Crash bandicoot
Hard Yaka
Posts: 2924
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:19 pm
Location: Towing a hilux

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby Crash bandicoot » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:14 pm

smurf182 wrote:
slidenyo wrote:-that's why you should always compression test on a warm engine.


I reckon this has almost nothing to do with intake air temps and is mostly about pistons etc expanding with heat into their correct tolerances and hence sealing against the bore.

You are probably over estimating the effect of air temp, the difference in density between air of 0 degC and 30 degC is a couple of percent.


it's not even a percent as such, a change in air temp of 10 degrees will only change the density by less then 0.01 of one atmospheres.

then the next part of the calculation is if the air is under pressure. in the case say 10 psi it it would only alter density by 0.05. of one atmospheres.
Waiter...there is a drought in my glass.

elvis
Bush Crasher
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 pm
Location: christchrch

Re: Another Hilux with starting issues

Postby elvis » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:39 pm

The starter motor i tried to put in was the wrong one have put right one in tonight we arnt meant to have frosts for a few days so she will probable start okish tomorrow my truck is like yours petemcc as when i jump start it she will start (i have even found if i leave a charger on it over night she will rip right into life) i have had the battery load tested 3 times(its only a few weeks old) every time the mechanic comments on how its better then most batteries he tests, the last time i took it down there in a frosty morning when it refused to start my truck. As for temperatures she gets down to -2 to -5 at the moment but truck is in a garage my work ute will start 1st time and i park that outside i run same oil in both.I have changed batteries in utes and both batteries will not start hilux but they will start work ute.cheers for the ideas guys next time she doesn't start ill try the hairdryer down the snorkel trick cheers troy.

Return to “Diesel Engines and Modifications”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests