Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

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fh2014
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Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:47 pm

So I have encountered a problem with running 25-30psi, and that is when I go from Wide Open Throttle to no throttle, the noise coming from the intake sounds like one of those ricer blow off valves. A really fricken loud "cho cho cho cho choo" except not a train. Sometimes I hear it on really heavy rubbish or concrete trucks taking off from lights when they work through the gears so thought it might be normal, and while it sounds cool, it got me thinking it cant be good for my turbo..

Doing a bit of quick reading it sounds like it is compressor surge or turbo "bark" - how can I fix it.? normally on a petrol you would install a blow off/recirc valve. Theres no way I'd put a blow off valve on it

Edit - sounds almost exactlylike what this guys truck is doing - and i dont want it to if I can avoid it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg5KMPaK9wM

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge?

Postby kbushnz » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:55 pm

Surge is what it sounds like to me...

Snip from another forum,.
Surge is the reversal of air flow through the compressor. The most common cause (in our trucks) is the rapid deceleration of the turbo due to loss of drive pressure to the turbine when you go from WOT to no pedal. Normally this is announced by what is often referred on here as "compressor bark", that sound is the rapid dump of air from the inner cooler back out the turbo compressor and out the inlet filter. Does not hurt the engine but can be VERY bad for the turbo and inlet filter.

And read this
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/99-03- ... te-up.html

or talk to Steve Murch.

https://www.facebook.com/Steve-Murch-Mo ... 636937679/
Cheers Calvin
KZJ78 Landcruiser Prado...

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby sirLachlan » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:28 am

Compressor surge is a whole nother beast . Thats a miss match of turbo wheels and you have air stalling and forcing itself backwards out the comp wheel while you are still on full boost/throttle . That will kill a turbo real fast .

I guess there isnt a propper name for this so compressor surge isnt technically the wrong name .
You tube rb30 or 'vl dose '

It wont really do any harm . Iif u dont like the noise then fair enough .

It will stall or significantly slow the turbo tho so when you change gear it has to get back up to speed .

Does this vehicle have a throttle plate that runs the engine ?
Fitting a bypass valve would improve turbo response and eliminate the chirp noise . Plumb it back into the intake and you wont hear much . Might be able to hear a light woosh if your listening for it .

Something like this would be alright for a try https://touch.trademe.co.nz/motors/list ... 1073107919
Or look at a subaru or nissan one as they bolt on to a flate plate so you could just drill some holes and bolt it on your intercooler etc

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby tweake » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:54 pm

the other thing is to check your pre turbo intake restriction.

to much vacuum in front of the turbo when at full noise. not only do you have boost trying to push back through the turbo, you have vacuum trying to suck the air back through as well.
so once you lift the pedal and the drive to the turbo drops off, the vacuum pulls the air back through the turbo resulting in a loud bark.

i get it when the air filter gets very clogged up, even with a stock setup.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby Crash bandicoot » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:04 pm

And watch the inlet hose isn't collapsing on full boost you could see mine start to pinch a little at 28psi
Waiter...there is a drought in my glass.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby tweake » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:27 pm

Crash bandicoot wrote:And watch the inlet hose isn't collapsing on full boost you could see mine start to pinch a little at 28psi

i would call that a sign of to much inlet restriction.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby sirLachlan » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:14 pm

Agreed .

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:43 pm

tweake wrote:the other thing is to check your pre turbo intake restriction.

to much vacuum in front of the turbo when at full noise. not only do you have boost trying to push back through the turbo, you have vacuum trying to suck the air back through as well.
so once you lift the pedal and the drive to the turbo drops off, the vacuum pulls the air back through the turbo resulting in a loud bark.

i get it when the air filter gets very clogged up, even with a stock setup.



Sounds lie you could be on the money, wouldn't call my intake restrictive but I could go bigger. Consists of turbo inlet 2.5" followed by a 90 deg 2.5" followed by about 250mm of straight 2.5" then another 2.5" to 3" silicon 45 deg then 3" pod filter - will remove intake piping and just run air into turbo - see what happens.

Actually looking at it like this , my intake could be rather restrictive...

Image


sirLachlan wrote:Compressor surge is a whole nother beast . Thats a miss match of turbo wheels and you have air stalling and forcing itself backwards out the comp wheel while you are still on full boost/throttle . That will kill a turbo real fast .

I guess there isnt a propper name for this so compressor surge isnt technically the wrong name .
You tube rb30 or 'vl dose '

It wont really do any harm . Iif u dont like the noise then fair enough .

It will stall or significantly slow the turbo tho so when you change gear it has to get back up to speed .

Does this vehicle have a throttle plate that runs the engine ?
Fitting a bypass valve would improve turbo response and eliminate the chirp noise . Plumb it back into the intake and you wont hear much . Might be able to hear a light woosh if your listening for it .

Something like this would be alright for a try https://touch.trademe.co.nz/motors/list ... 1073107919
Or look at a subaru or nissan one as they bolt on to a flate plate so you could just drill some holes and bolt it on your intercooler etc



While I dont think I have the surge you describe, what might the symptoms of this be? fluctuating/wiggling boost needle while at full boost?

P.S. that sick VL DOSE had me in stiches :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby tweake » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:32 pm

might want to try 3" from turbo to filter. possibly 4" filter

the other mad thought is what is your boost before the IC ? ie at the turbo.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:43 pm

actually never checked that either. always had the gauge reading from the inlet mani and that wastegate controlled from right off the turbo (25psi wastegate spring atm, gave up on shitty bleed off taps). whats your theory here

and come to think of it, there must be a bit of intake restriction, as with the 30psi spring it I never got there I only ever got 27 max. Fuel pump is modded.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby tweake » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:57 pm

fh2014 wrote:actually never checked that either. always had the gauge reading from the inlet mani and that wastegate controlled from right off the turbo (25psi wastegate spring atm, gave up on shitty bleed off taps). whats your theory here

you could be putting out far more boost than your reading on the gauge due to the drop across IC.
just something to check.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby tuckertrucker » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:58 pm

I didn't think diesels could get compressor surge. In a petrol that reverse flow of compressed air back out the compressor is caused when the throttle butterflies close, leaving the compressed air no where else to go but back out the inlet. But in a diesel when the throttle is closed the cylinder will still take in all the compressed air without restricting its flow. Thats why diesels don't have blow off valves.

Am I wrong with that? Correct me if I'm wrong but that would rule out surge as your problem.

Dylan.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby tweake » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:43 pm

the problems comes from the turbo loosing its drive suddenly and theres still enough boost left in the system to force its way back.
often because turbo is being pushed to or well past its limits.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:56 pm

Possibly. I never tested boost reading at turbo because 12 psi Waste gate spring was giving me exactly 12 psi at inlet manifold. But if there is drop across i/c then perhaps I was making 15ish at turbo. Will also check tomorrow

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby tuckertrucker » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:00 pm

Right, I also had a good read of the above comments and if their is a lower pressure in the inlet (pre compressor) then there is an even higher chance of air flow reversal when the throttle is closed. Especially if the exhaust flow isn't enough to drive the turbo.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby Crash bandicoot » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:05 pm

what turbo is that or combination of A/R's hot side and cold, is it a Ballbearing/wetfloat etc brand flange sizes, assume from the pic it is a front mounted intercooler.

If so is it tube and fin or bar and plate and how big is the core?

IF you have compressor surge exhuast restriction isnt an issue as clearly it is making more pressure then the engine can swallow.

is the egr system and intake butterfly still on the factory inlet manifold?
Waiter...there is a drought in my glass.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:36 pm

turbo is a td04l-13t
originally designed for 1.8l gsr motor. suits 3-4l diesel motor (claimed)
kinugawa with genuine mitsubishi td04l-14t cartridge (this is odd?)
comp wheel 40.7/56mm
turbine wheel 41.3/47mm AR .43
journal bearing turbo

piping pre compressor as above

piping after compressor 2.5" to i/c then to 3" qd32 intake

intercooler plate and bar 330x280x76 - 63mm/2.5" inlet/outlet

exhaust is 2.5" and we used flange supplied with turbo to make dump pipe

more detail in project thread

egr gear is history

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby sirLachlan » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:15 am

A tdo4 compressor map doesnt go to 30 psi . And above 25 psi the operating range is very narrow and efficiency has gone out the window . Hence you couldnt get above 27 psi at the motor out of it .
Exhaust back pressure will be huge . And serious risk of compressor wheel actually exploding . If not then the thrust bearing is not going to live very long

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby Crash bandicoot » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:26 am

Just thinking that. With diesels higher compression and only 2.5 exhaust the it maybe the exhaust side slowing the turbo down on deceleration. Not the compressor side.
Waiter...there is a drought in my glass.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby Madaz » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:51 pm

Does that Kinagawa turbo have the antisurge housing on it?

Ive got one on my td42 and it makes the noises ur talking about? and its just the antisurge housing doing its thing, sounds exactly like a blow off valve when you get of the gas

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:09 pm

Wish id heard that before I bought the turbo, we live and learn.

It sounds like this turbo and exhuast combo aint gonna cut it? especially when i go to the 3.2 block. What turbo size would you gurus recommend ? The next size up when I was shopping around was the TD04HL, but had heard that has trouble spooling up


Madaz, I dont think so. Sounds like a blow off valve with a medium loud swooosh going from half throttle to no throttle, and a full loud ZTUTUTUTUTU (as described in the VL DOSE video) when lifting off W.O.T. - do you have a pic of the housing?
Last edited by fh2014 on Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby Madaz » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:15 pm

Nah, dont have a pic, easy to tell though, has a heap of holes drilled around the inlet to the compressor

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby Madaz » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:21 pm

Kinugawa-Turbocharger-3-Anti-Surge-DSM-Eclipse-EVO-1-3-VR4-TD06SL2-20G-7cm-Hsg-301.jpg

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:36 pm

no surge arrestor here.

so took it for a drive with no intake on. same thing happening. took it back to 12psi. same thing happening. do I need to go a turbo with slightly larger exhaust A/R if it is possibly too much exhaust back pressure?

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:20 pm

An update on this, installed a different turbo and the problems still there. Turns out it is surge, but off load surge (as suggested above) and not that bad. Not good, but not that bad. What I get now is surge at full load. I get full boost to quickly and it makes its way back out the intake as the engines not using the air its delivering. This is really bad and makes a distinctive flutter sound under full load. Only way around it is electronic boost control to bring the boost up later in the rev range. Fixed for now by leaving boost at 18psi. However this turbo goes better at 18psi than the old one did at 18psi. Possibly due to the better turbine flow. Hope this helps someone.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby sirLachlan » Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:49 pm

Propper compressor surge like you describe is very hard on a turbo . And this isnt internet waffle no bov will wreck your turbo blah blah . This is compressor surge will kill it
All those holes drilled in the housing are for anti surge

They bleed a specific amount of air back around the tips of the wheel to combat surge

Honestly if you want a legitimate result talk to steve murch .

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:59 pm

Ive seen the antisurge vs non antisurge on compressor maps, it pulls the efficiency more to the left with the antisurge housing.

Im convinced im getting surge beyond where an antisurge housing would help. If I had some way to bring the boost up slower, it would work. No problems at 18psi. But if we go to 30psi, lock into a gear, 3000rpm is @ 30psi = sweet but 2000rpm is also @ 30psi = big flutter. Luckily I was able to identify the problem the instant I heard the flutter and didnt keep plodding round with a grenade on the side of my motor. Easily avoidable with throttle control or reducing total boost.

I know the compressor is to large but I dont care. It can work if controlled right.

I need it controlled so that 2000rpm is 18psi and then 3000rpm is 30psi. According to the compressor map, this will work. According to my real world testing, this will work. But the damn diesel will make 30psi at 2000rpm. Boom.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby dvk-kp » Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:49 pm

I had a Turbo Smart e boost street in my laurel and I could control how it came on boost with it. Worked well. Works up to 40 psi too. Can't see why it wouldn't do th same on a diesel.

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby tweake » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:33 am

whats your pressure drop across the intercooler at 30 psi boost ?

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Re: Diesel turbo compressor surge/"bark"

Postby fh2014 » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:00 pm

Thought I'd post this just in case someone with the same problem stumbles across this thread.

Here is what I had

td27t gt2056 30psi no control.jpg


Heres what I have now

td27t gt2056 30psi with controller.jpg


The first was massive surge because the compressor was too large/turbine housing too small resulting in the boost building to quickly for the engine to consume it.

After contemplating buying yet another turbo $$$ and building yet another downpipe I was able to buy this thing here https://sirhclabs.com/ (mods remove if not allowed) and control the boost by only the engine speed - rpms and more importantly in my case - airflow. The cortex ebc seems a powerful unit for the price - to get similar control from other well known brands I was looking at $900+. I couldnt find many reviews online so I took the plunge and so far I'm happy as. hope it lasts and hope someone finds this information useful.

dvk-kp wrote:I had a Turbo Smart e boost street in my laurel and I could control how it came on boost with it. Worked well. Works up to 40 psi too. Can't see why it wouldn't do th same on a diesel.


I looked at this, good entry level unit but can only control boost with a speed signal, not an RPM signal.

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