!997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

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penetrator
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!997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby penetrator » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:32 pm

Hey Everyone, long time since I have been on here but hoping for some advice if possible. I have a 97 Prado with the intercooled 1KZ-TE engine. Once a few months back I went to start it and it fired and just stalled. Took another 1/2 dozen attempts and it started and ran fine for months thereafter.

About 3 weeks ago I was packed up to go duck shooting first thing in the morning jumped in the truck turned it on felt like it fired up then it died. I tried re-starting it several times and it just wouldn't crank into life. Eventually I got it going but if I took my foot off the accelerator it wouldn't idle. I could drive it but as soon as it went near idle RPM it died. I pulled the ECU (which looked fine - no leaky diodes etc.) pulled all the electrical connections on the injector pump and cleaned them with electrical contact cleaner. Truck went fine after that but got the mechanic to check it over when it went in for a WOF - no fault codes showed up but maybe cause I had taken the ECU out.

Anyway, a couple of times since it has stalled the first time I try to turn it on and then takes 2 - 4 goes and it will fire up and run fine. Seems a very intermittent problem and its pissing me off! Has anyone else had this issue and successfully resolved it? Thinking possible air leak in fuel line, faulty fuel pump/injector pump or fuel spill control valve. Any other possibilities/remedies?

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby tallsam66 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:22 pm

Possibly Spill Control Valve ... mine did that once ... slowly got worse and worse until it wouldn't start at all. It doesn't always throw up a fault code .
If you put a meter on it resistance should read between 1 & 2 ohms.

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penetrator
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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby penetrator » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:56 am

Thanks tallsam66,

Out of interest how did you replace/repair yours once it was confirmed it was the spill control valve? I have heard that a new and even recon'd inejector pump is some serious $$$. Can you buy the spill control valve separately? I guess you still need to get a mechanic to pull the injector pump out to access and remove the valve?

Bloody thing did it again last night when I got dropped back at the vehicle - only started with a bit of right foot then had to drive with the left foot on the brake and right foot keeping the revs up at intersections etc. After a couple of kms all was running fine again....

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby tallsam66 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:02 pm

penetrator wrote:Thanks tallsam66,

Out of interest how did you replace/repair yours once it was confirmed it was the spill control valve? I have heard that a new and even recon'd inejector pump is some serious $$$. Can you buy the spill control valve separately? I guess you still need to get a mechanic to pull the injector pump out to access and remove the valve?

Bloody thing did it again last night when I got dropped back at the vehicle - only started with a bit of right foot then had to drive with the left foot on the brake and right foot keeping the revs up at intersections etc. After a couple of kms all was running fine again....


I brought a 2nd hand pump off a mate .. sometime ill fix my old one and keep it as a spare.

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:33 am

hi guys,

don´t want to open another thread. now it hit me. and it hit me hard.... KZJ78 1KZ-TE
whilst undergoing a seriouus turbo upgrade we were trying to move the car for a few meters.
no turbo attached. started after 20 seconds and died instantly. since then nothing.

checked intake, sucks in alright, checked injectors - loosened them up and saw diesel spilling, diesel filter is as good as new and primer pump very strong, even the Webasto heater draws diesel, it is there. everthing is there, diesel, air, compression. even checked if crankshaft is turning, it is.
tried to fire it up with some petrol to the intake which worked ofcourse but died instantly, blows a lot of smoke from unburned fuel.

should this be the spill valve?

mechanic says its like an immobilizer cutting it somewhere.
now the bad thning...there is an immobilizer but it was deactivated long time ago so that exactly that shouldn´t happen to me somewhere, anywhere.
i´m totally lost on this. opened glove box, disconnected tuning box, wouldnt change a thing.
changed potentiometer on tuning box, nothing. ecu looks good from outside which says nothing i guess.
found the immobilizer unit there too, wouldn´t guess what happened there. no idea.
it seems to me altough that there used to be some kind of relais klicking like the turn indicator from the glove box after opening with the central locking which used to be combined with immobilizer.
no klicking anymore. why would it have klicked anyways? it klicked like forever until the start of the engine, then it would stop or just won´t be heard anymore ;-)



any ideas or routines I could apply?
thanks
peter

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby kbushnz » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:31 pm

Did you plug in the air temp sensor in the intake hose ? perhaps the ecu needs to see it.
Cheers Calvin
KZJ78 Landcruiser Prado...

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:20 pm

yes, I did that Calvin.

Anyone ever heard of an injection pumps sudden death?
some people tell me that happens. car was standing for less than a week, hard to believe.
buddy will give me another pump to try but still not logical.
anyone knows how to check pump without deinstalling?


since I had a quite rough idling lately we are suspecting the spill control valve. maybe it just gave up.
can get new ones from UK at around 120 GBP but could get a used pump for 200 as well, not knowing about it´s intestines

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby tweake » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:48 am

talking of sensors, check water temp sensor. i would have to check the book but they are usually on the block. if thats been loosened or damage it can cause starting issues.
has it ever had the ecu repaired?
really common for ecu caps to fail due to age. i see quite a few surf guys with the same issue. failing caps cause all sorts of weird issues.

afaik spill control valve has two parts. one is the electrical solenoid which you can test with a meter. the 2nd part of it is hydraulic. its uses fuel pressure to boost the solenoid output. you can adjust that slightly by turning the nut at the top.

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:28 pm

i have checked all sensors, well there aren´t too many, for my understanding there are also air temp, boost and RPM which are all not crucial to fire up. it would fire up with petrol in the intake but stalling instantly.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the immobiliser. I imported the car from UK 5 yrs ago. they put in aftermarkte immos to get immense insurance discounts. as I was afraid that it would fail sometime I had it removed (that´s what I thought but it´s still there).

if anyone has a wiring diagram I´d be most thankful.

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby tweake » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm

easy enough to check.
see if there is signal at the pump on start up. if none see if ecu is getting power. most immobiliser's simply cut the power to the ecu.

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:34 pm

makes sense, will look into it.
unfortunately will not get to it before the weekend, will keep you posted!

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:52 am

well, strange enough...

today I spent some time to try the diagnosis routine of the WSM.
no error code

I checked some of the connectors which is not easy .

the one connector on top of the pump, is it kind of a power supply for the pump?
is it the speed sensor?

actually I DON´T get any voltage there.

we double checked the fuel pipes and today ABSOL'UTELY NO diesel arriving at the injectors.

so most probably immobilizer?
Attachments
1kz-te pumpe.PNG

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby tweake » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:01 pm

connector top center is rpm sensor. you will only get pulse readings from that. if that fails ecu should flag an error code.
spill valve won't get voltage all the time, only a pulse when it fires an injector.

to rule out immobilizer i would check voltage going to ecu. that the most likely one they would disrupt.

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:01 pm

thanks tweake for clarification. sounds logical. will follow your lead.

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:45 am

hi guys, long time no write up on my problem

basically it was winter time and i was not too eager to work in sub zero conditions as car is parked outside.

have removed all immobilizer wirings and some other unidentifiable cables here and there to get it back to original wiring.

still no success.

meanwhile the batteries gave up. strangely enough there is sufficient amps to fire up the starter motor but not the electronics.
only when using jump cables with another car and engine running there are 12.8V available and eventually the electronics will kick in, which goes like:

turn ignition key to position "start", the spill valve floods the engine, will fire up in big cloud of grey smoke and die immediately. when holding key to "start" engine will continue running in even bigger grey clouds.
when key is back to "on" it dies no mather what.

valve works at start but will not pulse when back to on.

when battery is lower than 12V the engine wouldn´t even fire up for a second.




can anyone tell if this might be the spill control valve or the ecu?
since we have ruled out all other components...

will get me a SCV the next days to try on my car.

thanks
peter

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby tweake » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:13 pm

i would check ecu.
really common to get capacitor failures on those old vehicles. that tends to cause a few weird problems. i suspect it screws with the voltage required for the sensors.
you should not get low voltage cutout at 12v. typically i think its around 10 or 11v. however worth checking to see what voltage your getting a the ecu. i've had a big voltage drop through the key switch due to poor contacts. with a 20+ year old vehicle its not to surprising.

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:30 am

tweake wrote:i would check ecu.
really common to get capacitor failures on those old vehicles. that tends to cause a few weird problems. i suspect it screws with the voltage required for the sensors.
you should not get low voltage cutout at 12v. typically i think its around 10 or 11v. however worth checking to see what voltage your getting a the ecu. i've had a big voltage drop through the key switch due to poor contacts. with a 20+ year old vehicle its not to surprising.



hi tweake!
thanks for the input.
I have installed the exchange SCV yesterday but it would not even work up to the point the old one did.
my car is a prado KZJ78 and I got the SCV from a prado KZJ95 , I would not think there is a difference, even connectors are the same...

I have got an ECU of the KZJ95 as well which seems quite the same. I heard that the only difference is that the KZJ95 has a factory immobiliser which is triggered by the ignition key and once you overcome that part you may just use the ECU on the KZJ78. any thoughts or experience there? would be nice to have an exchange unit to try instead.

cheers
peter

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby tweake » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:39 am

i have no idea on the differences between them.

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:12 pm

now i tried to hook up the ECU from a Prado 95 but it would not work as well. starter motor turning strong but no firing up. probably as assumed the immobiliser. didn´t expect the starter motor turning at all.

no progress again. too little time.

start thinking about conversion to manual pump.

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Re: !997 Prado 1KZ-TE Starting Issues

Postby peter_Kzj78 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:08 pm

short update here:

ECU was checked at electronics shop, capacitors are still fit for the job, no flaws detected.
this reduces the source of error to the cables between pump and ECU.
tired of it...
regarding conversion still no donor car found. will try to get it going first and then keep searching.

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