Gun law changes?

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MikeL200
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Gun law changes?

Postby MikeL200 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:48 am

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby RimfireNZ » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:39 am

This combined with the US law stuff is stressful as hell.

What's the difference between a Ruger mini 14 and an AR15 in reality? Nothing practical... yet one is now about to be entirely restricted unless you have an E category endorsement on your license.

The whole thing isn't about safety or lowering crime. If you read the actual bill, the first part sounds like a sore loser sulking. They go on about how civilians "made it difficult" for police to differentiate between the MSSA and a semi automatic (which in reality is a false distinction the police created). They also basically said in the bill they were going to arrange to consult with an external civilian advisory board on firearms... but they couldn't be bothered. So instead they decided to create a board the advise on these issues... but then said it's not feasible so they decided not to (leaving it 100% up to the Police to decide what is an MSSA).

The whole thing is stupid. I don't know why they can't just leave us firearms owners alone. I don't know what they're hoping to achieve with the law.

Join your local gun rights groups and continue to enjoy shooting.

As one of the guys on the NZ Hunting & Shooting forum said "I just want to keep and shoot my guns".
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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby 1justin » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:34 pm

theres so many guns in new zealand any person that wanted to get there hands on one could easily enough

i agree there is no difference between a mini 14 and a ar15 when it comes to there operation,

this change sounds like a ballsup, everyday they sign away more of our civil liberties i dont wana think about what the world or nz will be like in 50 years i doubt will have any left, probably wont be allowed 4wd or guns by then, be lucky if the banks dont own everything by then the way capitalism is going haha

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby T-Boon » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:07 pm

You are forgetting that guns are evil...

If I had a dollar for every time I heard about someone leaving a loaded gun on its own and coming back to find it had run outside and murdered everybody it sees, well i`d have nothing.

Its like saying "yes we trust you to have a gun, but not that one, that one has an extra safety feature of a pistol grip"
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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby bob_or_jim » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:46 pm

T-Boon wrote:You are forgetting that guns are evil...

If I had a dollar for every time I heard about someone leaving a loaded gun on its own and coming back to find it had run outside and murdered everybody it sees, well i`d have nothing.

Its like saying "yes we trust you to have a gun, but not that one, that one has an extra safety feature of a pistol grip"



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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Dirtydog » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:47 pm

so because alot of people have killed people with cars everyone should not be aloud a car?

it comes down to the person behind whatever it is.

and since when is it the law abiding citizens with guns that cause all the damage? usually the gun has been stolen or brought privately....

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Heath » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:30 pm

Booze kills - legal
Smoking kills - legal
Fast food / bad food kills - legal
Overpowered cars that anyone on a learner licence can drive - legal
Roads that are poorly constructed/congested which can contribute to road deaths - legal
Poorly constructed housing/buildings can kill - legal

E cat Rifles/firearms do have the ability to kill just like the above but are now limited because the people who are licenced (every 10 years with a resit of exams and visits etc) cant be trusted. The things that kill more NZers are considered okay but one group of wankers think that this small group of firearms is the answer to all the problems. If the issues with drivers in overpowered cars, the poor roads, poor housing, poor diets etc were addressed and this was the last thing on the list then maybe I could get behind it.

How many deaths from the above over the last 10 years?
I'd hazard a guess that E cat firearms dont factor much at all. If you removed the gang/criminal deaths then that would leave only two groups that use MSSA weapons. The police and the military. The military are overseas doing their thing and the police are here protecting us.

So the people protecting us from the bad guys are more likely to wound us with their weapons. Thats the problem with statistics - they'll say what you want them to say - and is what these namby pamby types use every day to justify their positions.

Of course using overseas data to furthur their cause doesnt help us. Problem is the overseas data doesnt reflect NZ and its regs (ever bought a gun from a gun show without any form of ID? - Nah didnt think so.) so isnt valid.

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby T-Boon » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:41 pm

The sad thing is that I made a submission against the bill, as did several hundred people, unfortunately, these were not even taken into consideration. :(

http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/Forums/ ... 60&t=25882

Its sad when This:

Image

Is an A cat, however this:

Image

Is instantly an E-Cat, how does it make any real difference to what the weapon does... Except make it Safer!!!
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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Dirtydog » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:44 pm

i can aggree with only two things in the whole e cat arguement.

a being the provision of a folding stock, as it does make concealing them easier, and b having a limit on how big the magazine is.

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby bob_or_jim » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:30 pm

Dirtydog wrote:i can aggree with only two things in the whole e cat arguement.

a being the provision of a folding stock, as it does make concealing them easier, and b having a limit on how big the magazine is.



For sure, there is still room for the E cat and the 2 above reasons being a perfect example why.

As with any law its down to understanding it and going from there. I have read a few articals on it and from what I can gather they almost seem to be getting "softer" on some parts of the law......or am I reading it wrong?

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby fish » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:21 pm

guys, i joined the nsa and they do heaps to help keep the laws resonable,
i think if your a nz gun owner then you need to join up to keep it that way,
here is the site,
http://www.nsanz.org.nz/

just bought a rugar sr 22r yuss

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Glenn J » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:35 pm

There's also the nzda whos quite influential with gun laws too (sorry to jump in on you mentioning the NSA). They concentrate more on the hunting side of things though.
Personally Iv'e never seen the need for a high power semi auto rifle anyway. If you need more than one shot (or maybe a second if your first shot was badly placed) to take down a deer then you might have to see what your doing wrong.
But you can buy slug guns which look like the real rifles without any licence and still use it for the same crimes as you would with the real thing.

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Munks1 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:26 am

First comes registration
Then comes confiscation

They will start with Ecats, then all semi's including shotguns and your plinker 22.

Next is pump's and pistols

Then we will end up like england - a country with a long hunting and shooting heritage which only a select few can now enjoy, and violent firearms crime rates through the roof. Because the only people who followed the crap firearms laws are the honest firearms licence holders.

Join the NSA and fund the fight for your civil libertys

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby fish » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:40 pm

very true. rules never get more relaxed only tighter. if you dont make a fuss now then it will be too late when they decide to ban semi shotguns and pumps,
the argument that you dont need high powered semis might be true but is also not relevant. its not that i need that particular rifle its more that its not for a politician to decide that for me.
i own a mossberg 500 12g pump and it holds 6 rounds, this is more that i need to take down what ever im hunting, so with that logic you could argue that i dont need it, and should be banned. but i diddnt buy it for the amount of rounds it holds, i bought it because its a great gun and hunting wold be pretty lame if all i could use was a one shot single barrel.
same applies to rifles.

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby xj » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:47 pm

This shits just like the anti-smacking crap. It only stops the honest people. Decent parent might give their kids a clip when they need it (a whole seperate debate) whereas the fukn mongrels that were beating their kids senseless are still doing it. Gun control aint gunna be any different, the shitbags will still have the semis etc and will still get up to the same antics, but those of us who are responsible and law abiding will get more bullshit foistered upon us that we then feel obliged to follow.

I reckon they need to be getting rid of the soft air pistol and subbie replicas that any plonker can get their hands on at 18. At the end of the day, a shop owner or carjacking victim isnt looking down the barrel and contemplating the potential calibre of the black eye that is staring at them, theyre shitting themselves thinking they're going to be shot. Knock all those on the head first and see how things roll from there.
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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Moriarty » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:17 pm

AS XJ says, take the guns out of the hands of the general Public, and only the ungodly will have guns. Then we WILL be in the shit.

Another thought, WHO is going to control deer numbers if the only predator in NZ has his teeth pulled? How long until the deer are as prolific as rabbits, and the number is like it was after 6 years of little to no hunting between 1939/45?

If the numbers increase to that level again, and they would, the crossover of bovine TB from Possums to deer is a forgone conclusion, what price our dairy based economy then? There are many many more ramifications to gun control than some wankers idea of "saving lives"

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby fish » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:08 pm

good debate, americans are much more vocal about the law changes over there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlXyVeai2eI

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby norsk » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:12 pm

The same kind of "feel good" Bullsh+t has happened here in Norway where I live.

After the tragic Massacre in Utøyre the governenment made it illegle to sell certain kinds of semi autos,practically over night.That law was based in apperance,just like the proposed New Zealand law changes are.

What they forgot was that detonating huge bombs in city centers like Ander Breivik did has always been illegle.Laws don't stop the insane,never have never will.

It has to be understood that in government,some people take up crusades,anti-smoking/anti-smacking/anti-guns etc.They use their chosen issue to promote their career all in the interests of "public safety".Criminals don't give a toss about the law,they operate outside it and the politicians know this.The onus is on law abiding gun owners to put pressure on the Politicians to prevent these changes.

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby mumbls » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:37 pm

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Last edited by mumbls on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby mumbls » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:43 pm

Heath wrote:Booze kills - legal
Smoking kills - legal
Fast food / bad food kills - legal
Overpowered cars that anyone on a learner licence can drive - legal
Roads that are poorly constructed/congested which can contribute to road deaths - legal
Poorly constructed housing/buildings can kill - legal

Come on Heath, you generally a legit poster didn't expect to see that,
Booze - Not designed to kill
Smoke - not designed to kill [debatebale]
Fast food- not designed to kill
Cars - not designed to kill
Roads - not designed to kill
Houses - not designed to kill

Guns - DESIGNED TO KILL - No if's or buts or debates along the way, primary design, to kill. Don't see how any realistic person can put guns with the above 6 things, Primary design of a gun, is to kill. Car, to transport etc etc

Moriarty wrote:AS XJ says, take the guns out of the hands of the general Public, and only the ungodly will have guns. Then we WILL be in the shit.


Compare Australia and America, is the general public in a higher chance of being shot, or kids being shot at school or other crime involving guns more likely in Australia - strict gun control or America - lax gun control

I'm the biggest anarchist out but id rather seeAustralian style laws and buy back, no hunter needs an assault styled rifle Bob, if you can't shoot cleanly with a single shot then allowing cheap norinco [any assault rifles] isn't going to do much about deer control in NZ.....
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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Dirtydog » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:07 am

ever tried using a bolt action out of a helicopter in fiordland? its rather necessary to have a semi to take them down in one lot to save time and fuel, much better than having them spread out like crazy.

i can aggree that semi auto's arnt necessary for hunting, but why, once again should the law abiding citizens be penalized when the criminals are the ones that dont care if they have a bolt action, pump action semi auto etc when they commit the crimes?

and the whole military semi auto thing, in my eyes is more about what they look like rather than their functionality.

last thing the goverment wants is someone screaming out that a member of the army has shot up somewhere.

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby xj » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:51 pm

mumbls.
Ya can't surely try comparing us to the good ol USofA, not do-able.
Main 2 points being a) their "right" to bear arms makes for a shitload of dead folk right away with the associated in-built mentality, and b) get some comparative figures on deaths per capita via handguns in the two countries (next to zero here), then see how that percentage stacks up when combined with ownership of MSSA's as well.
We cant even hold a candle to the States.
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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby mumbls » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:30 pm

xj wrote:mumbls.
Ya can't surely try comparing us to the good ol USofA, not do-able.
Main 2 points being a) their "right" to bear arms makes for a shitload of dead folk right away with the associated in-built mentality, and b) get some comparative figures on deaths per capita via handguns in the two countries (next to zero here), then see how that percentage stacks up when combined with ownership of MSSA's as well.
We cant even hold a candle to the States.


Look I don't want to be called out as a Mike Myers type but a gun related death is a gun related death. Gun owner mentality plays a lot on gun ownership, not necesarily shooting other humans. I would doubt the majority of peopel convicted of gun related deaths are NRA members [ generalisation]

I am not putting the US in comparison with NZ but on a scale, of gun related deaths per capita person vs guns per capita, in 'peacetime'. US is at the heavy end of the scale. No e stats needed, its accepted. Australia is at the light end of the scale

I think you actually have said it all. The easiest simplest explanation is guns are designed to kill. Assault style rifles were designed to kill more people. More availability directly leads to more people killed.

If you need to go heli shooting to cull deer numbers then I wouldn't think you would have a problem getting an endorsement for high capacity semi auto.

Do you see the following scenario as a problem
Anyone with a with gun licence in NZ can walk into GUN CITY and purchase assault rifles, plural, buy out everything they have in stock! No cool down / stand down period

For teh zealous law abiding types like ourselves I am sure there would be no problem in us safety conscious responsible gun owners with a reason [club, heli hunting, display] sitting another endorsement to own any type of weapon.

Do you really want joe public having access to as many norinco / AK47's gun city will sell in a hour?
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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby xj » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:31 pm

1) so your bone of contention is MSSA's, not Semi autos?

2)
Assault style rifles were designed to kill more people
Erm no... ASSAULT RIFLES, WITH SELECTABLE FULL AUTO were designed to kill more people. Of which we (NZ) have none.

3) And, Joe Public cant walk in anywhere and buy what they want, Joe Public WITH A FIREARMS LICENCE may well be able to.
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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Dirtydog » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:45 pm

i can see where your coming from, and i aggree maybe there should be some sort of stand down period, or a limit on how many someone can have unless they get an endorsment or something.

i disagree however to the whole semi auto argument, an MSSA has the same functionality as a ruger 10/22, or a mini14. when people see a ak47 they automatically think terrorist, etc, which really is just stereotyping. not thinking about how theyre reliable etc, which has good in all cases is good.

now if you notice something, on the gun city website it states that the guns are civilian issued weapons. not military, not peacekeeping etc.

would you rather have a semi auto capable of following up a shot quickly to put a deer/pig/goat out of its missery? or hope that you hit it in the right spot first, and if not have to follow it to see if it actually died?

What Xj has said, is a very valid point.

an assault rifle is not a semi auto, they are selectable. which is why we are not aloud a assault rifle in nz, even burst fire weapons are illegal.

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Moriarty » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:57 pm

mumbls wrote:
Heath wrote:Booze kills - legal
Smoking kills - legal
Fast food / bad food kills - legal
Overpowered cars that anyone on a learner licence can drive - legal
Roads that are poorly constructed/congested which can contribute to road deaths - legal
Poorly constructed housing/buildings can kill - legal

Come on Heath, you generally a legit poster didn't expect to see that,
Booze - Not designed to kill
Smoke - not designed to kill [debatebale]
Fast food- not designed to kill
Cars - not designed to kill
Roads - not designed to kill
Houses - not designed to kill

Guns - DESIGNED TO KILL - No if's or buts or debates along the way, primary design, to kill. Don't see how any realistic person can put guns with the above 6 things, Primary design of a gun, is to kill. Car, to transport etc etc

Moriarty wrote:AS XJ says, take the guns out of the hands of the general Public, and only the ungodly will have guns. Then we WILL be in the shit.


Compare Australia and America, is the general public in a higher chance of being shot, or kids being shot at school or other crime involving guns more likely in Australia - strict gun control or America - lax gun control

I'm the biggest anarchist out but id rather seeAustralian style laws and buy back, no hunter needs an assault styled rifle Bob, if you can't shoot cleanly with a single shot then allowing cheap norinco [any assault rifles] isn't going to do much about deer control in NZ.....


Except, of course, that I don't own or possess an assault rifle. I DO own a Ruger 44. Rem Mag as my main deer rifle, If the Ruger bolt action had been available when I bought it, nearly 40 years ago, I would have THAT. The Aussie buy-back was a complete failure. Hundreds or thousands, more likely are stashed for safe keeping. My then Bro=in=law made two trips a day, AKL to SYD carrying 6 guns a trip on rescue missions!! lucky sod had the cash!!

You are right, actually, NO hunter needs an assault rifle, bloody clumsy and useless in the bush as a stalking weapon, catches on everything, gimme a sleek smooth bolt action any day.

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby trucked » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:35 pm

I find it quite interesting how people view this issue.

Me I am a hunter, I don't own a mssa. I have bolt action rifles and a semi shotgun for ducks.

my view as a hunter you have absolutely no need for a assault rifle, a bolt action or semi auto is more than capable of doing any type of hunting in New Zealand. even though they do look rather cool they are impractical for true hunting.

you can't stop the stupidity of people at the end of the day, why people want to go kill a bunch of people is beyond me.

stopping assault rifles in New Zealand would mean no law change as we're not aloud them as it is. stopping people having semi autos based on appearance and stocks/mods isn't ideal as a stock isn't the part most likely going to do the damage, a bullet will still kill the same with or with out a cool looking stock, there is even home made shotguns made from pipe I've seen.

if someone wants to spend the money and have a stock with foldable butt then good on them, and I don't think they should be subjected to e cat just because of that

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Heath » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:39 pm

mumbls wrote:
Heath wrote:Booze kills - legal
Smoking kills - legal
Fast food / bad food kills - legal
Overpowered cars that anyone on a learner licence can drive - legal
Roads that are poorly constructed/congested which can contribute to road deaths - legal
Poorly constructed housing/buildings can kill - legal

Come on Heath, you generally a legit poster didn't expect to see that,
Booze - Not designed to kill
Smoke - not designed to kill [debatebale]
Fast food- not designed to kill
Cars - not designed to kill
Roads - not designed to kill
Houses - not designed to kill

Guns - DESIGNED TO KILL - No if's or buts or debates along the way, primary design, to kill. Don't see how any realistic person can put guns with the above 6 things, Primary design of a gun, is to kill. Car, to transport etc etc

Moriarty wrote:AS XJ says, take the guns out of the hands of the general Public, and only the ungodly will have guns. Then we WILL be in the shit.


Compare Australia and America, is the general public in a higher chance of being shot, or kids being shot at school or other crime involving guns more likely in Australia - strict gun control or America - lax gun control

I'm the biggest anarchist out but id rather seeAustralian style laws and buy back, no hunter needs an assault styled rifle Bob, if you can't shoot cleanly with a single shot then allowing cheap norinco [any assault rifles] isn't going to do much about deer control in NZ.....


I'm entitled to my opinion just as you are. I agree some of the laws need polishing but not a wholesale change. Aussie rules did nothing but bury a portion of the weapons that didnt comply. Tonnes of them just "disappeared". Of course they will probably resurface at some stage in the wrong hands. NZ's system is held up by gun owners in UK/Aus?Canada as a better system than theirs. "Better systems" exist but only in the eyes of the namby pambies (The alpers of the world) who hate all guns and believe they should never be in the hands of anyone.

A little known fact that during the hollywood shootout the cops didnt have their usual weapons because their boss didnt want his staff using their usual weapons (pistols and shotguns only). He even limited the ammo types they would carry (bean bags for the shot gun - no solids or 00 buck). Lots of people got injured because one person made a decision that wasnt balanced. The bad guys got taken down becase the local guys raided a gun shop and used their assault weapons.

I say involve those that legally use them in creating policy not haters.

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby Heath » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:42 pm

Of course when the zombies rise up at the coming appocalypse my Semi auto toys are all set to wreak havoc amoungst their shambling numbers... :mrgreen:

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Re: Gun law changes?

Postby xj » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:01 pm

Just to throw it out there -
Theres absolutely no need for a person to drive 180kmh. So all cars capable of going that speed, or more correctly, all cars capable of going over 100kmh, need to be abolished.
Additionally, spoiler kits should be outlawed forthwith as, although cool looking, fitting them might make the driver think that they're in F1 or NASCAR, which will, in turn, cause them to drive dangerously on our roads.

Praise be the nanny state.

Heath, Im with you on the Zombies, you'll see me easy enough, I'll be the one with the multiple gunracks, moonshine flagons and confederate flags fitted to my 7.4L Silverado
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