Checkerheads new project.

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rokhound
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby rokhound » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:40 pm

You want your AS numbers to be set so you achieve good drive down on the front axle. All the other stuff will seem really unimportant when your nose is coming over your roof on the first good hill climb. I would probably look at making upper links out to 75%ish in your case. But ultimately, the call is yours. You have done all the home work, so pick your best option for your needs.
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby churchill » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:27 pm

Checkerhead wrote:
churchill wrote:About UJ joint angle, I've just been through this with my truck. Basically stuff all deviation is acceptable. Page 12 was really helpful:.


Thanks Churchill. Good link!

Just had a quick read. If I understand it correctly the 12 degrees I'm talking about gets halved (because two UJ's take half each).

200kph on 35" tyres with a 4.1 diff gives me a touch under 4900 rpm at the driveshaft. So if I set my pinion at -3 degrees (with reference to the flange on the t-case) than that mean I will be at positive 8 degrees at full bump. Half of that is 4 degrees which according to your link allows me to run the drive shaft at 4000 rpm, or roughly 160 kph. For the tiny amount of time that I will be going over 160 kph and at full compression, I am prepared to accept an accelerated rate of wear on my UJ's. :D (but then bush flex etc will increase or decrease this misalignment anyway :? )

I will have a more thorough read of that article in the next few evening to make sure I have the right end of the stick.

Thanks again, that appears to be relevant and helpful info.


No worries, just a couple of notes:

-Don't forget that any vertical offset at rest leads to and angle on the driveshaft that leads to more angle on the uj's. Cad it up and measure the angles as it cycles.
-I don't think you can half the angle the driveshaft is on for the uj angle, if the drive shaft is at 12° and the flanges are parallel each uj will see 12°.
-I think a lot of the trophy trucks use a double cardan (CV) at the front of the rear driveshaft then rotate the rear diff up to make a 0° angle on the diff uj at the average operating angle. Imagine if you can place the centre of diff rotation (your 12°) at the right point you can probably get close to no angle change on the diff uj...
-I set mine up using the above method (CV up front and diff rotation) due my driveshaft angle being so steep but I only need this for on road as my off road speeds are pretty slow compared to yours.
-I think you're right in setting it up for the average position and live with the consequences at full suspension droop/compression.

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby suzolla » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:53 pm

Hi Aaron,
DOM (Drawn Over Mandral) tube is not CrMo tube it is carbon steel tube like Sch pipe so it is easy to weld but is about 2 times as strong for yield strength, sch pipe ( A106B ) has a yield strength of about 35,000 psi or 240 MPa whereas DOM 1020 has a yield strength of about 65,000 psi or 448 Mpa.
So DOM tube is nearly twice as strong as pipe.
Only trouble is it seems to be hard to get hold of in NZ, rang up the Hamilton branches of the two big steel suppliers in NZ and neither of them had heard of it ????????
Seems to be very common in the states, might have to see about buying some in.
As for heat treating CrMo, not compulsory if the welded area is not highly stressed. and the tube is thin, have a look at http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/Pages/chrome-moly-detail.aspx
Don't think the requirement to heat treat would put me off, its the price that would put me off.
Cheers
Tim

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Checkerhead » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:37 pm

Hey Tim.
Yeah I forgot that the cold drawing would improve the tensile strength of the DOM. So point taken there.

I can't find it now, but I'm sure the Sch 40 I'm getting from steel and tube was 48000 PSI (330 MPa). If so that puts the Sch40 at 75% of the DOM.

Re the chromo, I have previously read that Lincoln page and I know that heat treating was compulsory for our application. However I read else where that the tensile strength of the chromo wasn't much better than Sch40 (or maybe it was DOM) until it was heat treated. Guess I need to find some numbers otherwise it's all just hearsay. Either way, I agree that the cost of the chromo is more of a problem than the cost of the heat treating.

If you do bring in some DOM, be sure to bring in a bender (or at least some dies) as everything I see advertised locally is for pipe rather than tube.
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Checkerhead » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:43 pm

Good points Churchill.

I can halve the angle as I am talking about the flanges being 12 degrees from parallel, rather than being parallel but off set with a 12 degree angle between them.

How ever this makes me realize the very important point that I haven't been factoring the operating angle in to my calculations. Which will change everything.

Best I do some more measuring tomorrow.
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Team Tonka » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:33 am

Good to see you making progress. You cant beat grinding off welds and doing it again.... and again. I have a pair of 1" rod ends here with spherical bearings. Bearings are shagged but could be replaced. If they are any good for your lower control arms you can have em. They came with Dave's steering ram but he aint gonna use anything that heavy for steering.
May the force be with you.

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby churchill » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:17 am

Checkerhead wrote:Good points Churchill.

I can halve the angle as I am talking about the flanges being 12 degrees from parallel, rather than being parallel but off set with a 12 degree angle between them.

How ever this makes me realize the very important point that I haven't been factoring the operating angle in to my calculations. Which will change everything.

Best I do some more measuring tomorrow.


Ok I didn't understand what was happening properly. Definatly cad it up as the as the front uj angle is controlled by the vertical displacement of the rear axle and the rear uj angle is controlled by diff head rotation...

I didn't find this out until I got everything together and had a strong vibration on coast, uj's were operating at 15°.

Your project is looking good!

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Checkerhead » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:50 pm

Well thanks to passenger Pete and the Wehi I have a couple of Safari links to chop up and make some dummy links with.
Image

I then crudely tacked a combination of bolts and old link brackets in approximately correct places to confirm that I was on the right track. This also allowed to to see (roughly) how much rope deflection there would be at full bump.
Image
Image

I then measured back from the front axle and tacked a piece of RHS to the chassis. This served as my reference point for getting the chassis 4 link mounts in the right place and having them the same left to right. I needed something else to reference as the lower link mounts are on an asymmetric cross member, plus it just made it easier. I then did some math, measured some angles and cut some 6mm plate.
Image

I have no idea how everybody else does this, but I cut myself little cardboard angles to aid tacking things in the right place.
Image

It all becomes a bit of a four handed operation trying to hold something at the correct angle/height/position etc. So I clamped more RHS to the original piece that was tacked left to right on the chassis. This extended my "reference area". Then clamped the ruler to the bracket and stood it on the "reference RHS". This basically got rid of two degrees of freedom and meant I could hold, check angel and tack more or less at the same time.

Image

So after a few decent afternoons of surprisingly slow progress I have all the brackets tacked in what I believe to be symmetrical and correct (according to my 4 link calculator) position.
Image
Everything is just tacked, none of the brackets are finished or have all their bracing etc. In fact you can see in the pic above that the axle lower links only have inner brackets at this stage. Tomorrow there will be a bit of suspension cycling/flexing/measuring to check that it's doing what I expect. I brief measure up this evening showed that the axle was within a few millimeters of where I thought it should be, so that's satisfying.

Hopefully it all looks as good tomorrow when I move it all around.
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Checkerhead » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:57 pm

rokhound wrote:You want your AS numbers to be set so you achieve good drive down on the front axle. All the other stuff will seem really unimportant when your nose is coming over your roof on the first good hill climb. I would probably look at making upper links out to 75%ish in your case. But ultimately, the call is yours. You have done all the home work, so pick your best option for your needs.


Between Rok and Meatc said about links, plus what a few of you have said about driveline angles, I have added 1 inch to the upper links. This puts me at 75% of the lowers. Improves my pinion angle change by about 3 degrees and doesn't do terrible things to any of the other numbers.
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Checkerhead » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:06 pm

Also Ruffstuff have 20% off until December and I am resigning my self to the fact that they might be the best option for rodends. Still, $350 (nzd, incl freight) for a pair of 1"1/4' rod ends does not excite me. Any one want a pair of rod ends (or something small) so we can share freight? It's $69 US for freight and I could add two sets of rod ends with out the freight price changing. It's only $69 US (less 20%) for a pair of the 7/8 rod ends and that includes misalignment spacers, jam nuts and weld-in threaded bungs.

http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/cat ... PARTS.html
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Madaz » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:20 am

Have you tried Barnes 4x4 for rod ends? I got some chromemolly ones off them for my new hack, and they were resonably priced

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Checkerhead » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:07 am

Madaz wrote:Have you tried Barnes 4x4 for rod ends? I got some chromemolly ones off them for my new hack, and they were reasonably priced


Nope. Just had a look. Prices are pretty similar (I messed up in the message above, I meant $250 not $350).

Some days it would be great to be in America.
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Madaz » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:39 am

Yep hearing ya...............

So much more stuff............. and cheaper too...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pasbfDXvYcc

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Big » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:15 pm

Madaz Video


what a video.. pitty its jeep but man they have some cool shit.. 8)

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby churchill » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:41 pm

I had a quick skim through you posts and I can't find if you are making your arms adjustable. If you aren't I would recommend doing it as it makes any small tweaks really easy!

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Checkerhead » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:38 pm

churchill wrote:I had a quick skim through you posts and I can't find if you are making your arms adjustable. If you aren't I would recommend doing it as it makes any small tweaks really easy!


Won't be adjustable on the vehicle (ie not built with LH and RH threaded ends), but both upper and lower links will have at least one threaded end to allow "half turn" adjustability.
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby churchill » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:12 am

Sweet, that's all I found I needed.

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Checkerhead » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:49 am

Wish I had a finger folder.

Instead I'll make do with my vice/RHS/welder/sledgy folder.

Image.

Also my rod ends arrived. They're not small.

Image
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby rokhound » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:49 pm

Naked arse dude, those are farkin huge.
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Madaz » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:29 pm

rokhound wrote:Naked arse dude, those are farkin huge.


x2 mate, and you reckon I overbuild shit...... :lol: :lol:

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Mattrade » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:06 am

Very cool man. Unbreakable 8)

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby suzolla » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:17 am

Hi Aaron,
Just wondering what peoples experience has been with these in the mud and grit and how much they will wear, as they are not adjustable and don't think they are rebuildable.
I know they are used a lot in the States but a lot of their wheeling seems to be done in the dry
Cheers
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby mudtroll » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:44 am

I've got one on my A arm, been there 4 years, recently pulled the diff out & joint is still in excellent condition.

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Checkerhead » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:26 am

Thanks Mudtroll. That's quite a relief.

Yeah Tim, I was planning to run the "suck it and see" approach. A few reasons I went this way. They are what is required for cert. The extra forces I'm going to subject them to by putting the shocks on the lower links. Haven't read a lot of good things about rebuildable joints.

I had no feed back with regard to life span in mud. I know Darin is running them at one end, but hasn't been running them long enough to say much about durability.

Rok and Madaz, yep, bigger than I imagined. The internet in general seems to think these are what I needed, and we all know there aren't any idiots on the internet.
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby rokhound » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:28 am

Fair cal bud, if it's on the interweb it must be factual eh? :mrgreen:

Even if these start to do strange things to you with regards to wear etc, they are so large that you will have plenty of time to sort it before they fail :wink: :P
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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby Madaz » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:02 am

Yeah, Ive put them on the missus zuk, I had talked to a guy that has been running been running them on a trials truck that also gets used a lot on bush trips and other club stuff, he hadnt had any issues with them wearing out too quickly.
Interestingly enough it was also recomended to me to run the rod ends on one end of the arm and rubber bushes on the other, this was from the trials network, and was also regarding a front five link, so may not be applicable to your application.

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby De-Ranged » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:15 am

I haven't had an experience with these (I've gone with rebuildable joints from Tim for my toy for the simple fact I can rebuild em lol....)
But Ive used plenty on my contracting gear (blade piviots etc), it is amazing how long they last in the muck... even with muppet staff who don't know what a grease gun is
Given the size of those for the load lol just a bit of overkill, they shouldn't have any issue with wear from load and your links are long so your range of motion on each cycle of the suspension shouldn't be much
I'd be happy giving them a go

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby suzolla » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:36 am

Interestingly enough it was also recomended to me to run the rod ends on one end of the arm and rubber bushes on the other, this was from the trials network, and was also regarding a front five link, so may not be applicable to your application


That will be because it is a 5 link, otherwise it will bind up as the axle moves unless the geometry is set up perfectly with equal length parallel arms, no such problems with a 4 link.

Cheers
Tim

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby skid » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:08 pm

suzolla wrote:Hi Aaron,
Just wondering what peoples experience has been with these in the mud and grit and how much they will wear, as they are not adjustable and don't think they are rebuildable.
I know they are used a lot in the States but a lot of their wheeling seems to be done in the dry
Cheers
Tim


Tim,
I am no engineer type person, but these look similar to the rod ends on most of the top trials trucks these days. In the thickest pea soup but at times and seem ok after a season or 2, also similar to the ends of the fox shocks :?

As I say, I am not that mechanically inclined etc etc so I may be talking complete rubbish and have my wires crossed ;-)

Next trial in Ohope on Jan 24th and after that in Maramarua on Feb 14th, come along and have a look and ask the drivers all about them ;-) :-)

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Re: Checkerheads new project.

Postby DMcCready » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:49 pm

suzolla wrote:Hi Aaron,
Just wondering what peoples experience has been with these in the mud and grit and how much they will wear, as they are not adjustable and don't think they are rebuildable.
I know they are used a lot in the States but a lot of their wheeling seems to be done in the dry
Cheers
Tim


I have this style of joint on my buggy. I have found that link angle plays a huge part in how they last. I have triangulated 4 link front and rear. The joints on my rear end I have never replaced but the front does not have as much triangluation because of the motor etc and they last a couple of trips before the axle has play again.. ive given up buying them. I will be buying these next. I just have to modify the width of my mounting brackets which seems like hard work at the moment

http://www.emfrodends.com/category-s/1942.htm

Greasable. Rebuildable. No nylon or teflon. Bombproof and not much more that good quality teflon lined rod ends
There's gotta be some rocks round here SOMEWHERE!

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