Public Access vs Club Access

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby slidenyo » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:30 am

So theres lots of noise about seat warmers and geriatrics binding up the system with excuses and beauracracy.
Unfortunately they are right though we need a seat warmer down in parliament to front our views and support our cause.
Like any allignment it can split opinion votes and views,
Without numbers we have no voice.
is nzfwda going to start a political party ? Probably not but if it ever had the numbers to support an mp to front our cause itd be great.
till then its back to meetings with doc begging for members cash and fighting amongst ourselves
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby slidenyo » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:31 am

So theres lots of noise about seat warmers and geriatrics binding up the system with excuses and beauracracy.
Unfortunately they are right though we need a seat warmer down in parliament to front our views and support our cause.
Like any allignment it can split opinion votes and views,
Without numbers we have no voice.
is nzfwda going to start a political party ? Probably not but if it ever had the numbers to support an mp to front our cause itd be great.
till then its back to meetings with doc begging for members cash and fighting amongst ourselves
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Eddieb » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:40 am

Madaz wrote:
Eddieb wrote: signposted 'protected' clearing


Where is this protected area? Ive been going up there for the last 20 years and have never seen such a sign?


It used to be on the right hand side of the track 1/2 to 2/3's the way up on the Te Aroha side. It was destroyed at least 6-8 years ago now, if not a few more.

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Clint » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:16 am

drive it ... wrote:Keep the chainsaw handy.


Amen to that. Since a lot of formally organised track maintenance is currently getting put in the too hard basket we should all try & put in a little extra effort when just out for a drive, take another 20 min to not just dig your way around a slip, but turn the water off to prevent the next one, don't cut that tree back so you can just squeeze through - cut it right off the track.

Most of my favourite 4x4 tracks have been maintained for years with little or no bureaucracy required, just regular attention with chainsaw & shovel & maybe a visit from a digger or dozer every 10 years or so. I can appreciate that it depends on the track & gets harder as traffic & idiot numbers increase though.

I do like the system they have down south with free internet registration to get the gate code as a way of keeping out a few of the dickheads.

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby slidenyo » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:59 am

The gate code idea sounds good , for tracks managed by nzfwda a move that system would be great.
if signage went up and joebloggs wanted to use the track just put a text for the code app in to bill them their fee .
only problem being would be groups comin through an someone holding the gate open.
Rainbow down south was good also just had to stop in see the station manager pay $20 an he gave a key to drop in the post box in hanmer.
another idea would to have a system like doc for hunting permits whereby entrants carry there paper with them when they go .
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby DieselBoy » Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:02 pm

That's how they run some of the Tracks in Aus.

You apply for your permits before you leave, or drop into a designated place if you can't before you leave.

You carry the permit with you when your on the track.

But just like the Murawai online permits, who can afford to take on the responsibility to police them?? As a result that little venture failed straight away.

As we all know, putting any kind of access restrictions in place solves nothing. The ruthless will still do what they do, as the rules have never applied to them and it will only serve to deter those that would otherwise have showed an intereste in this form of recreation as it just puts another hurdle in their way.

Access restrictions also encourage more ruthless bahaviour, as that restriction tends to push people to that sort of behaviour as they now have to go and join a club or shag around online before they can access a recreation area. Instead they think bugger it, and go round the gate, or go rip up somewhere else.

Mountain bikers do have to join a club to go riding, walkers don't have to join a tramping club, motorcyclists don't have to join a bike club.

But for some reason there are those that think in order to go 4wding, you must join a nanny club, have permits and access codes and weetbix 4wd license (remember that idea??).
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby mudsurfv6 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:04 pm

DieselBoy wrote:But just like the Murawai online permits, who can afford to take on the responsibility to police them?? As a result that little venture failed straight away


yeah, a permit & key or padlock code or whatever is used won't necessarily stop the tracks getting trashed or ripped up off the side of tracks and if its not policed then there is no way of knowing who has done the damage.
cameras would help but the hole track can't be watched. cost??

if its left to users to report damage to ??? then that might not always happen. and again the cost of policing it comes down to who?

I don't know what the answer is... :?:
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby De-Ranged » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:57 pm

Mountain bikers do have to join a club to go riding

For the HB you are correct they do have to... or pay for a temp pass so they are covered by the insurance the club has
I was the club chairman for a few yrs and was one of those that set this up.... we did this in an attempt to retain our access and it ment we had to police it, all that ment was when I was ridding and I seen a non club member I would stop them and point out they were putting my access and the access of alot of others at risk....
The end result of the club being proactive was when the rebel/muppets did something wrong we didn't loose our access they accepted it wasn't us and didn't punish us..... if we didn't have the club they would have locked the gates and trespassed us

We need to police it.... if we don't stand up, we'll loose it.... if its club controled access then the club has a vested interest, it is alot easier to stand up and say no when you have a club behind you lol

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby NJV6 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:13 pm

Clubs are not for everyone and making people join isn't going to solve anything, all it will do is likely downgrade the clubs reputation as yobbos go out for a play as a club member. And as someone else said clubs are not always perfect either, even NZ4WDA affilated ones from what I have seen! Dickheads will be dickheads - its just a fact, locked gate or not. I'm sure we have all been places we shouldn't - the difference is no-one would know I have been there.

The areas that have never been open slather that have recently been taken over by DOC control and opened up to the public and run a key system works very well, you dont need to be a club member, just need to be a few days organised which isn't hard to do. These are now the best scenic places as the tracks are not overused, and not likely to become a mess. To lock a gate 'in our patch' which has traditionally been open and put a code/apply for key etc would open up a really big can of worms, these gates wouldn't last a weekend from both hunters/poachers/4WDers.

What is often required is, professional town planners, civil engineers, lawyers, environmental engineers and heavy machinery driven by skilled operators, health and safety professionals

:lol: lets try again. What is often required is, an uneducated spade operator, a pick swinger, a saw of any description and provide in multiples of 20 people!

Commercial access is terribly elitist and must be avoided at all costs!
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby DieselBoy » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:09 pm

^^^^ what he said!!!!!
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby slidenyo » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:51 am

The thought is great but its h&s implications could see a track manager prosecuted if he hasn't taken reasonably practicable steps to ensure its safe and its entrants safety.
for instance who carries liability insurance personally in case your truck goes up an starts a scrub fire?

I firmly believe a doc permit style system which can encompass the h&s side an billing for the pay as you go tracks would be great.
as was said above we need numbers not only for maintenance but also to prove our case for continued access.
Being a club member wouldnt be necessary but clicking a few boxes on a computer or phone app that proves you have considered the h&s aspect and a documented expected exit time would be a step in the right direction.

If you havent got 5 minutes to make a few clicks i'd seriously consider you havent prepared well at all? Shit i take an hour going ovet the vehicle my spares the recovery gear a spare change of clothes wet weather stuff plenty of water and packing lunch and a fewsnacks the night before. Having an app where you click on the list what you're taking would be helpful i reckon being forgetful myself at times.

An then clicking off the hazards you might encounter and some control measures.

an clicking in a rescue/recovery plan even if you right 'walk back to the start of track and borrow a tractor for recovery" shows to worksafe you have considered unforeseen outcomes

i'll take a photo of our permit to work document at work if you'd consider the idea up at the nzfwda?

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Madaz » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:30 pm

Far out............... next thing we will all need a permit receiver qual

Your starting to make it all sound a bit too hard, whats gonna happen to the spur of the moment saturday afternoon trips?

Our club has allready ruined that buy having to have all club trips gazzetted at least 7 days in advance to be covered under the nz4wda insurance.

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby DieselBoy » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:39 pm

slidenyo wrote:The thought is great but its h&s implications could see a track manager prosecuted if he hasn't taken reasonably practicable steps to ensure its safe and its entrants safety.
for instance who carries liability insurance personally in case your truck goes up an starts a scrub fire?

I firmly believe a doc permit style system which can encompass the h&s side an billing for the pay as you go tracks would be great.
as was said above we need numbers not only for maintenance but also to prove our case for continued access.
Being a club member wouldnt be necessary but clicking a few boxes on a computer or phone app that proves you have considered the h&s aspect and a documented expected exit time would be a step in the right direction.

If you havent got 5 minutes to make a few clicks i'd seriously consider you havent prepared well at all? Shit i take an hour going ovet the vehicle my spares the recovery gear a spare change of clothes wet weather stuff plenty of water and packing lunch and a fewsnacks the night before. Having an app where you click on the list what you're taking would be helpful i reckon being forgetful myself at times.

An then clicking off the hazards you might encounter and some control measures.

an clicking in a rescue/recovery plan even if you right 'walk back to the start of track and borrow a tractor for recovery" shows to worksafe you have considered unforeseen outcomes

i'll take a photo of our permit to work document at work if you'd consider the idea up at the nzfwda?

Regards Jase


Your straight up taking the piss right??

It's common sense that the more restrictions you put in place, the more it is going to push people away from the "restricted permitted areas" and into using areas they shouldn't perhaps be, like under the Tuakau bridge and the commercial subdivision at Horotiu.

Same goes for pushing more people away from regimented clubs and into groups of mates operating out side of the draconian rules.

Counter productive I would say.
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby slidenyo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:55 am

Put it this way .
i make a conscious decision to ensure ihave the gear required on board for a trip.
you probably do exactly the same.
but joe muppet whos just got daddies 4wd handed to him likely doesnt have a clue.
providing joe a few triggers so he learns quick .
it might be as simple as selecting thompsons for the trip and minimum equipment required autofills .
its not as likely that an experienced 4wder goes out an gets killed followed by the collective mums baying that the naughty dangerous track be closed.

But honestly imo sacrificing a few minutes to provide some data and stats would be worth it if it can be utilised to prove the case for more tracks and paper roads to be accessible?

Call it draconian or a donation of your time i wouldnt care if it saw the full length of vandy and waitawheta reopened ...
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Clint » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:19 am

slidenyo wrote:for instance who carries liability insurance personally in case your truck goes up an starts a scrub fire?


Pretty much anybody who has 3rd party insurance or better. I know there's 10 mil worth in my policy.

I get worried when people start talking about Worksafe in relation to recreation on public land. It's called WORKsafe for a reason, if it's not a workplace they have little jurisdiction & that's the way it should stay.

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby slidenyo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:37 am

I agree clint .
the new legislation reads fairly simply that a pcbu should take all reasonably practicable steps.
in the descriptor of pcbu it reads person conducting business or undertaking by in blanketing the same law across volunteers and clubs.
and thats the hook we go volunteer up a track an clear some scrub if we have documented proof we have taken all reasonably practicable steps then the arse covering is done should an accident occur.
doc already does it with tramping tracks and signage and hunting permits, pay as you go tracks do it,
If nzfwda spearheaded it so even non members could use the system or even non 4x4 users they're going to build a case for continued access and have proven records for compliance.
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby derk » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:44 am

next thing the pcbu inventers will be telling us you cant go out and mow your lawns on a Sunday or take the rubbish out without a pcbu, health and safety plan, signing the H&S register and a bunch of other requirements they are still busy trying to think up :D

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Clint » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:45 am

slidenyo wrote:the new legislation reads fairly simply that a pcbu should take all reasonably practicable steps.
in the descriptor of pcbu it reads person conducting business or undertaking by in blanketing the same law across volunteers and clubs.


From http://www.business.govt.nz/worksafe/information-guidance/all-guidance-items/position-statements/health-and-safety-of-volunteers-at-work:

"Volunteer associations
An organisation working for a community purpose that has no employees is a volunteer association. It is not a PCBU and has no duty, responsibility or liability under the HSWA"

... so not sure how Worksafe are going to have much interest in a 4x4 club working bee on public land? Different story on a lot of private ground of course.

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Madaz » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:08 pm

slidenyo wrote:but joe muppet whos just got daddies 4wd handed to him likely doesnt have a clue.
providing joe a few triggers so he learns quick .
it might be as simple as selecting thompsons for the trip and minimum equipment required autofills .


Yeah, but some people are just muppets and no amount of training courses, track fees, padlocks or autofills is going to change that.......

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Madaz » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:13 pm

slidenyo wrote:
Call it draconian or a donation of your time i wouldnt care if it saw the full length of vandy and waitawheta reopened ...


Correct me if im wrong, but isnt Vandys road open on either end, just not really connected in the middle? And isnt Waitawheta closed because of the silt issue in the river?

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby slidenyo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:24 pm

Yep vandy needs its dots connected.
an waitewheta is closed due to a silt issue from runoff.
as far as the nanny state goes the guy you pay to mow your lawns is a pcbu.
the delivery truck i towed up tjw driveway with the bully was a pcbu.
still did the job the same just they are just aware that h&s needs consideration and as it was there business they protected it by having minimum safety gear and equipment and the equipment documented.
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Mudde1 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:23 pm

Madaz wrote:
slidenyo wrote:
Call it draconian or a donation of your time i wouldnt care if it saw the full length of vandy and waitawheta reopened ...


Correct me if im wrong, isnt Waitawheta closed because of the silt issue in the river?

In simple terms, Yes.
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Mudde1 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:25 pm

Clint wrote:
slidenyo wrote:the new legislation reads fairly simply that a pcbu should take all reasonably practicable steps.
in the descriptor of pcbu it reads person conducting business or undertaking by in blanketing the same law across volunteers and clubs.


From http://www.business.govt.nz/worksafe/information-guidance/all-guidance-items/position-statements/health-and-safety-of-volunteers-at-work:

"Volunteer associations
An organisation working for a community purpose that has no employees is a volunteer association. It is not a PCBU and has no duty, responsibility or liability under the HSWA"

... so not sure how Worksafe are going to have much interest in a 4x4 club working bee on public land? Different story on a lot of private ground of course.

Cheers
Clint

Also different story if heavy machinery involved, as that is almost certainly owned for commercial purposes.
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Mudde1 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:27 pm

slidenyo wrote:I agree clint .
the new legislation reads fairly simply that a pcbu should take all reasonably practicable steps.
in the descriptor of pcbu it reads person conducting business or undertaking by in blanketing the same law across volunteers and clubs.
and thats the hook we go volunteer up a track an clear some scrub if we have documented proof we have taken all reasonably practicable steps then the arse covering is done should an accident occur.
doc already does it with tramping tracks and signage and hunting permits, pay as you go tracks do it,
If nzfwda spearheaded it so even non members could use the system or even non 4x4 users they're going to build a case for continued access and have proven records for compliance.

It is being worked on.
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby De-Ranged » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:15 am

The problem we (HBMTB club) found wasn't us it was the land owners... because they were concerned about there liability for allowing us access there solution was simple... keep us out, alot of farm land is closed just for this reason
That was why we did the club liability insurance and encouraged membership and it has worked... the forest companies locked other clubs out and left us there, as we got bigger they helped us
Just on a side note I've noticed other clubs have copied and I don't see much of what DB's anti conformist attitude, I stop and talk alot when I ride lol not as fit as I was and I haven't heard a comment about unfair charges or anything close

Oh and for the books check your car public liability when I was logging I had to have extra just for this as normal policy stated "only on formed roads...."

Hey Tony has work safe (or who ever they are) chased any volinteers on this yet? I remember a bit about a crash on a cycle race down CHCH and there was talk of liability for the organizers

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby DieselBoy » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:15 pm

"Anti conformist"

:mrgreen: I feel so Punk Rock right now :mrgreen:

What I'm trying to point out is what we all already agree on. Those that cause the trouble already don't follow the rules.

More access regulations and restrictions won't bring those members of society into line, they will continue to rebel harder.

Intern, these same access regulations and restrictions will also have the effect of pushing more people away out into the fringes and turning punk rock :wink:

I get all the other side of the argument, of course I do. Who doesn't??

I'm trying to deconstruct the issue, and it keeps coming back to basics.

What can you do with no budget and without town planners, resource consents and large machinery??

You can go back old school. Working bees, spades axes and shovels. You might not be able to fix it up like you could with a digger, but it's amazing what can be done when folks get stuck in.

You can already see that in effect on Thompsons track, and it's only a handful of enthusiastic "anti conformists" mucking in and looking after their backyard.

Imagine if that approach was re-adopted once again??

Rather than making excuses that it's to expensive and to complex, bring the expectations back a few notches and actually look at what's achieve able with what's available.

What's available is man power and enthusiasm. What's achievable with that is limitless.
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby mercutio » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:02 pm

DieselBoy wrote:What's available is man power and enthusiasm. What's achievable with that is limitless.


LIKE :mrgreen:
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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby zukmeista » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:29 pm

mercutio wrote:
DieselBoy wrote:What's available is man power and enthusiasm. What's achievable with that is limitless.


LIKE :mrgreen:

X 11ty billion good shit DB!!! :D

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Mudde1 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:47 pm

DieselBoy wrote:"Anti conformist"

:mrgreen: I feel so Punk Rock right now :mrgreen:

What I'm trying to point out is what we all already agree on. Those that cause the trouble already don't follow the rules.

More access regulations and restrictions won't bring those members of society into line, they will continue to rebel harder.

Intern, these same access regulations and restrictions will also have the effect of pushing more people away out into the fringes and turning punk rock :wink:

I get all the other side of the argument, of course I do. Who doesn't??

I'm trying to deconstruct the issue, and it keeps coming back to basics.

What can you do with no budget and without town planners, resource consents and large machinery??

You can go back old school. Working bees, spades axes and shovels. You might not be able to fix it up like you could with a digger, but it's amazing what can be done when folks get stuck in.

You can already see that in effect on Thompsons track, and it's only a handful of enthusiastic "anti conformists" mucking in and looking after their backyard.

Imagine if that approach was re-adopted once again??

Rather than making excuses that it's to expensive and to complex, bring the expectations back a few notches and actually look at what's achieve able with what's available.

What's available is man power and enthusiasm. What's achievable with that is limitless.

The strange thing about this post is that you are saying that all the tracks can be fixed with a group of guys with spades. Sounds great. There is nothing to stop anyone with a spade having a working bee on Thompsons track, and some people are doing that, which is great, but I am still getting flack because we can’t send a digger in, and even if I could, no one wants to pay for it.
Tony.

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Re: Public Access vs Club Access

Postby Mudde1 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:14 pm

De-Ranged wrote:The problem we (HBMTB club) found wasn't us it was the land owners... because they were concerned about there liability for allowing us access there solution was simple... keep us out, alot of farm land is closed just for this reason
That was why we did the club liability insurance and encouraged membership and it has worked... the forest companies locked other clubs out and left us there, as we got bigger they helped us
Just on a side note I've noticed other clubs have copied and I don't see much of what DB's anti conformist attitude, I stop and talk alot when I ride lol not as fit as I was and I haven't heard a comment about unfair charges or anything close

Oh and for the books check your car public liability when I was logging I had to have extra just for this as normal policy stated "only on formed roads...."

Hey Tony has work safe (or who ever they are) chased any volinteers on this yet? I remember a bit about a crash on a cycle race down CHCH and there was talk of liability for the organizers

The case you are talking about concerns a fatal accident during an event called LA Race several years ago which was organized by Astrid Andersen. Very long story short, Astrid was charged under the crimes act and was facing some very serious charges, after several years of legal argument she was eventually found not guilty, but only after the legal costs cost her everything she had and the emotional cost was extremely high. There have been several other similar cases involving motorsport. That clause is still in the crimes act and could well be used by Police even if Worksafe don’t have coverage. Those cases resulted in many sports organisations (Including NZFWDA) changing the way they do things and taking out Legal defence coverage. That way if there is an issue on a NZFWDA Club trip, at least there is money there to fight the charges. If you are not on a club trip and something happens, you are on your own, and for legal costs we are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. Now I know that I am going to get a lot of people saying, “That won’t happen to me” My answer is that It has already happened at least 4 times in other sports, and I am aware of at least two cases in 4X4 clubs where police investigated with a view to laying charges against organizers of events, and one wasn’t even a fatal. I think it is only a matter of time before someone faces court over an accident on a 4x4 trip. When that happens, someone is going to in deep …. That is why NZFWDA is so insistent that clubs stick to their policy on arranging trips. (That is each club must have a procedure for arranging trips, and keep to it)
On a similer note, I can also tell you that if ever you have to stand up in a Coroners court and explain what you did to make sure that the deceased was safe, in front of the deceased family, you better have a really good answer.
Tony
Tony.

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