Adding 2-stroke oil to diesel?

[fish]

im gonna try this with my mitsi, its high ks and has a noisy pump.
hope this helps,

[Mr Revhead]

This is a new one on me... Can anyone provide any data or tech study outside of "sounds quieter to me"

Re the lots of failing pumps when the dropped sulphur, none failed.
They just leaked. The sulphur kept some of the rubber soft and the lower content made the rubber go hard. On the Toyota pumps (masses of LN130s had this issue) it was just the top cover gasket and an o ring. No big deal, was way over hyped.

[DieselBoy]

This is a new one on me... Can anyone provide any data or tech study outside of "sounds quieter to me"

Re the lots of failing pumps when the dropped sulphur, none failed.
They just leaked. The sulphur kept some of the rubber soft and the lower content made the rubber go hard. On the Toyota pumps (masses of LN130s had this issue) it was just the top cover gasket and an o ring. No big deal, was way over hyped.

Start doing your own research here:

https://www.google.co.nz/webhp?sourceid ... o%20diesel

[Mr Revhead]

Thanks, I did google. I like to know the tech behind why you do things or don't.
99% of the hits on google are similar threads on forums with lots of "felt better to me" all based around the lowering of sulphur, and ignoring that sulphurs lube qualities have been replaced by other additives.

The only actual articles I can find all say that manufacturers, diesel makers and 2 stroke oil makers all say DON'T add it to diesel, citing various things such as gumming, contamination of engine oil due to way too much sulphur etc etc.
However you can't always confirm the tech abilities of those writers.

So I was hoping someone had found some actual hard mechanical information to prove it is beneficial to older diesels. As it's pretty clear it would be quite bad for modern ones, and there isn't really any real data saying it is good for older ones.

I've been around car forums a long time, there is a huge amount of myths on them that get started on one, spread to another few, who then find the earlier ones and use them as reference to support the new ones etc etc

[lax2wlg]

^^^ Rational, balanced, unbiased, scientific evidence-based. Loving it. Richard Dawkins or Darwin would be proud.

Hope you find the answers you are looking for.

[crazyclark31]

Was a while ago now but read an article about this. It was about when Mercedes did a drive through india(?) and they add two stroke to the diesel fuel as the quality wasn't that flash. Apparently it makes the fuel burn better(cleaner) and stops the dpfs from blocking up. The author of article had noted that the burn cycle (cleaning filter) was less frequent.

It also stated that non synthetic 2stroke oil becomes part of the fuel and doesn't separate when left to sit. So am doubtful about the blocking filters thing.
As a side note I run it in my truck and notice a significant difference. Runs smoother and quieter for a start.
Will try and track it down tonight and post a link

[tweake]

on one of the forums someone posted pics of glow plugs before and after using 2t in the diesel. the glows where a lot cleaner after.
also reports of egr systems not being fouled up so much.

a couple of reports of cruise egt's being slightly higher.
i would think if its reducing ignition lag time (ie higher cetane) it will act like advancing the timing. higher flame temp equal less soot produce and possible existing soot burnt off as well. tho 2t does have detergents in it which may be responsible for the soot cleaning.

i know a while back diesel in AU was only 45 cetane while most modern diesels require 50 cetane. also need to remember that places get fuel contamination, eg water, petrol, kero etc. that effects the fuel especially lube. diesel now only has a minimum level of lube, which is added to it. its not as high as the old non-sulphur diesel. however it normally dosn't cause a problem unless fuel is contaminated.

[fish]

One tank later and I have to say. It's an improvement. Quiet smooth driving. Ive noticed less smoke and a smoothness that wasn't there before. I know that some people claim its a placebo but even if it is then its worth it. Very happy.

[DieselBoy]

The way I see it:

Our older diesel vehicles were designed for a grade of diesel fuel that doesn't exist any more.

The main change in the fuel is the sulphur level.

Sulphur was added to the fuel as a lubricant. It's role was to lubricate the injectors and the injector pump.

These days the Sulphur level is greatly reduced, and as a result the engines that were designed and built on the 90's and early suffer.

Adding mineral based 2 stroke oil provides the lubrication that is lacking in the modern fuel and lubricates the injector pump and injectors. This is a big part of why people often report quiter operation and better economy.

I haven't researched it thoroughly as I don't own one, but I hear those running the common rail diesels have at least some audible results from running 2stroke oil, and also report the service life of the injectors is increased. I read some where that Mercedes was recommending it in countries where the fuel quality was dubious causing premature injector failure.

It's well worth researching yourself, so much to read and lots of info for you to form your own opinion.

I run mineral 2 stroke at about 400:1 in the 300tdi

[tweake]

Sulphur was added to the fuel as a lubricant. It's role was to lubricate the injectors and the injector pump.

sulfur was never added, it already existed in diesel. they didn't need to add any lube to it. but now they strip the sulfur out which also remove the lube, but they add a minimum amount of lube back in.

[fish]

why do they remove the sulfur? emission?

[tweake]

why do they remove the sulfur? emission?

correct.

edit: i forgot it also blocks up catalytic converters and DPF's.

[smurf182]

why do they remove the sulfur? emission?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_dioxide#As_an_air_pollutant

[Mr Revhead]

No one tell the greenies what you are doing!!

[fish]

No one tell the greenies what you are doing!!

Treat greenies like muahrooms. Feed them shit and keep them in the dark.

[Mr Revhead]

I eat mushrooms

[Mr Revhead]

Been doing some reading. I'm leaning towards it being a good thing, on older engines though.
Here's some interesting reading:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-spe ... ts-10.html

Long thread, so I will copy and paste an very informative section from the middle:

Ok some more learning curve...

We all know that diesel fuel has more BTU's than Gasoline right...

#2 Diesel .......................... 139,000 BTU's
Gasoline............................ 125,000 BTU's

So this is why diesel does more work (TQ) and has better MPG numbers compared to there gasoline brothers...

Here is some more to think about for BIO fuels... Small reduction but not bad...

Ethanol ............................. 76,000 BTU's
B20................................... 138,000 BTU's
B100.................................. 130,000 BTU's

Now for you common 3 diesel additives...

Naptha............................... 15,000 BTU's
Mineral Spirits...................... 19,000 BTU's
Xylene............................... 18,000 BTU's

So this proves the MORE fuel additives you use the LESS amount of HP/TQ and MPG your going to get from your truck... All its doing is washing out the fuel...

So how about 2 cycle oil...

2 cycle oil (avg).................... 138,000 BTU's

So 2 cycle oil isn't going to reduce the BTU value of diesel fuel. So its still a excellent choice as a fuel additive so far...

There is no benefit to using a higher cetane number fuel than is specified by the engine's manufacturer.The ASTM Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils (D-975) states, "The cetane number requirements depend on engine design, size, nature of speed and load variations, and on starting and atmospheric conditions. Increase in cetane number over values actually required does not materially improve engine performance. Accordingly, the cetane number specified should be as low as possible to insure maximum fuel availability." This quote underscores the importance of matching engine cetane requirements with fuel cetane number!!!
So adding cetane boosters are not going to improve the performance of the engine and/or fuel.
Cetane improvers modify combustion in the engine. They encourage early ignition of the fuel. They encourage premature combustion and excessive rate of pressure increase in the combustion cycle.
Look at the materials they use in most cetane boosters. Mineral Spirits, Xylene, and Naptha none of these chemicals are even close to the diesel fuel family. They also have very low flash points like gasoline! Every one of them are used for degreasing and cleaning solvents.
Cetane Number is a measure of the ignition quality of a diesel fuel. It is often mistaken as a measure of fuel quality. Cetane number is actually a measure of a fuel's ignition delay. This is the time period between the start of injection and start of combustion (ignition) of the fuel. In a particular diesel engine, higher cetane fuels will have shorter ignition delay periods than lower cetane fuels.
Cetane booster tend to advance the timing of ignition. Hence the ignition knock that you hear. The lower the cetane number the less ignition knock you'll hear. Also the flash point and the auto-ignition temps of the fuel is reduced greatly.
Cetane number should not be considered alone when evaluating diesel fuel quality. API gravity, BTU content, distillation range, sulfur content, stability and flash point are very important. In colder weather, cloud point and low temperature filter plugging point may be critical factors.
All of the cetane boosters on the market tend to reduce the BTU content of the fuel. Hence it reduces the MPG and the HP/TQ numbers. Sulfur content is been reduced national to 520 HFRR (<15 PPM Sulfur) which mean less lubricity of the fuel. Cetane boosters tend to de-stabilize the flash point. Go back to my Chemical definition page and look at the flash points of the different chemicals.

[DaveM]

I've pretty much used oil in my Safari's since originally posting this thread. No problems at all, and the pump is quieter. Whether there are extra benefits, I don't know, but I'm happy to carry on using it.

[DieselBoy]

Yep, good bit of info. It's a real opinion versus opinion subject when you really start into it huh

My opinion is that the main purpose for adding mineral 2 stroke oil is to increase the lubricity of the fuel for lubricating the injector pump and injectors.

Any additional benefits to performance could be a result of the pump and injectors functioning better.

I was never really convinced by anything I read that it actually improved the fuel burn etc

[Ant]

So how much are you guys putting in per tank?
I see a few in this post using 200-300ml. Any other numbers?

[Waddles]

i have been putting 450mls to 90l in my safari 200:1

[Mr Revhead]

I was never really convinced by anything I read that it actually improved the fuel burn etc

I agree. it seems it won't make the fuel burn worse either.
One aspect though could be how sulphur is it putting in? I'm of the opinion you only need a tiny amount. like 300/400-1
Too much sulphur would wear out your oil faster possibly leading to extra wear there.

Although I think you'd need to run quite a bit too much and slack off on the oil changes for it to show up much

[tweake]

i don't think sulfur will be much of an issue.
but certainly you don't want to put to much in. if its changing ignition time/lag time or burn rate then to fast is as bad as to slow.
most say around 200:1 but what works for you will vary. i would put as little as possible in.

[slidenyo]

its interesting they claim that the btu of diesel and 2t are within a thousand thermal units of each other.
which in my head makes sense
their thread seems more aimed at diesel additives pushing the combustion point forward in its timing.

personally I gave a 100mL dose to 80 litres the tank before last,
using my stihl oil but I might try some other 2t I have for the kx.
and tbh it may have made a little difference but I couldn't hear it over the tappits I needed refacing

lack of sulphur is an issue you'll remember they reduced it in the mid 90's and everyones pump seals started leaking.
I remember taking a big lump of it home from the refinery tour at marsden pt where my uncle works

[Mr Revhead]

i don't think sulfur will be much of an issue.
but certainly you don't want to put to much in. if its changing ignition time/lag time or burn rate then to fast is as bad as to slow.
most say around 200:1 but what works for you will vary. i would put as little as possible in.

too much and it creates sulphuric acid and contaminates the oil.
The change in diesel also enabled the longer service intervals you get now (along with better oil)

[tweake]

i don't think sulfur will be much of an issue.
but certainly you don't want to put to much in. if its changing ignition time/lag time or burn rate then to fast is as bad as to slow.
most say around 200:1 but what works for you will vary. i would put as little as possible in.

too much and it creates sulphuric acid and contaminates the oil.
The change in diesel also enabled the longer service intervals you get now (along with better oil)

i doubt it will be an issue when using standard oil change intervals. most oil changes are done well before tbn drops to low.
if it had that much sulfur compounds in it the cat's and dpf's would block up.
havn't heard of anyone complaining that their dpf has blocked up. most of the time its the opposite, the dpf's require less regen.

[Mr Revhead]

Yes but the thing with too much 2 stroke is the sulphur levels will be much much higher than old diesel.

I'm confused by the forum comments about less DPF blockage and regen, as all the technical information suggests there will be more.
Think about it, the lowering of sulphur in diesel allowed the use of DPF and cat convertors and they also require using low sulphur oils as well.
So adding in sulphur again cannot be good for those

[Marco Polo]

Adding 2 stroke at 200:1 will increase the sulfur level of the fuel in your tank by less than 0.01%

[tweake]

as above, i don't think there is much sulfur in the 2T.

the less dpf blockage etc is due to engine is cleaner burning and not producing so much soot.

[johnny262]

Read somewhere that it needs to be TC-W3 ashless outboard oil, and as stated before, must be mineral not synthetic to avoid separating from the fuel

TC-W3 is for watercooled engines, as air cooled chainsaw etc oils are designed for higher temps they may not burn completely (?)

Just finished a 4l container of this @ 300ml a tank (80l) in a d21 td27t Terrano, noticed no difference whatsoever, just did it solely to lube the injector pump

Ive only briefly researched the topic, but as a motorcycle mechanic by trade this is my pick of the bunch, hope this helps