Attention all Nissan 3 ltr Diesel driver!!!!!

[fishjoe]

Found another blown teranno on trademe, so reminds me come back edit this post, so it may remind others.
Owners of any of the following vechile powered by ZD30DDTi Engine may really want to read the rest.

These cars includes Nissan terrano 99-on with 3litre Diesel, Nissan patrol 99-on with 3Ltr Diesel, Nissan Safari Super Spirit 99-2002 with 3ltr Diesel. 3ltr Diesel Navara and Caravan owners may need less concern, but still recommend to learn more.

Anyone(inluding me) owning such a vechile without taking this problem into account, is risking a danger of engine blown or turbo failure. But the owners dont panic because lots of people are currently working and had a lot of progress in preventing this happen. And as long as this problem not happens, this is a good motor.



cheers.
fishjoe

[MistySailor]

I have a blown piston in a ZD30 Pathfinder and are awaiting costs from the dealer. Found stuff on an Aussie forum - doesn't look good for me.

[DaveM]

Check out the outerlimits site, theres a long list of members with problems with them unfortunately

[MistySailor]

The vehicle:
I bought my Pathfinder brand new here in New Zealand in 1999. It was regularly serviced by the dealer every 10,000km and was at the dealer for it's 150,000km service. No.1 piston blew when the dealer service team were checking the compressions as it had started up rough when the went to move it into the workshop and they thought it best to check prior to doing the service.

The vehicle was used mostly for longer trips, eg Hamilton-Tauranga, Napier, Palmerston North, Wellington and in 2006 to the South Island in the "Big Snow" (Included all the passes - absolutely great in the snow and ice using A/T mode 4wd.) It has also towed a trailered Mini to Hastings and back and my Trailer Sailor from Whangarei to Hamilton and to the local lake and twice to Tauranga and Taupo, and once to Rotorua. Both trailers are braked. The vehicle did not do any serious 4wd work, however we were often using the A/T mode in the wet and the 4wd in the paddocks.

I do not think this is much hard work for a diesel, our old Wolseley 1800 did the job previously.

The Problem
For what I gather from Aussie forums and speaking with the dealer's service team, the local wreckers and other owners this is what the problem is:

The engine crankcase breather is connected to the air induction system on the intake side of the air flow meter. This means the meter gets fouled by fumes from the crankcase. The computer gets incorrect readings from the airflow meter and adjusts fuel and boost levels to the incorrect readings. Thus the boost goes astronomical (the service technicians said they had readings on 15psi and the 25psi) and finally a piston blows. There was also talk that the fuel in this situation is not "misted", ie is a jetted into the cylinder, landing in the same place all the time. In the end the engine blows.

Some of the symptons are things such as intercooler pipes sliding off, engine running ruogh, and higher than standard boost pressures.

Note that in Aussie there have been a number of similar blow-ups in Patrols with the ZD30 motors.

The Solution
Over the eight years we have had the induction pipesslide off a number of times.

We have had the airflow meter cleaned several times and at least one if not more new airflow meters fitted at hundreds of dollars at a time.

Nissan have come up with a revised crankcase breather pipe which changes the position of the connection to the induction plumbing. This was done on my Pathfider at 138000km for $862.

I understand there are now pistons with stronger tops used in these engines along with changes in the computer settings for the fuel and induction system.

Nissan NZ do have an "Out of Warranty Assistance" program which may be of some help. Conditions apply though.

Our Engine
After inspection we were told our engine would need reboring, 4 pistons, injectors, airflow meter, drive belt tensioner etc, total around $13,200 and have the injector pump serviced. After the Nissan assistance a miserly $1450 would be taken off the bill for the airflow meter and some oil-jet assembly parts!

Our solution
As you can guess, we were not impressed at all with this Nissan.

We bought the vehicle for the long term. We were wanting 10 years out of it and intended to assess it at that time as to wether to keep it or trade up. We were two years to the day away from that point.

The dealer suggested the trade-in value prior to the engine going would have been around $8000 - ie $5,000 below the cost of fixing the engine! While the Nissan dealer was offering a warranty on the repairs it was parts only so if the engine went again it was still a major cost to us.

Second hand engines are apparently around $5000 if you can find one, however you may be no better off as what you buy may be about to blow anyway.

A local wrecker offered between $4,000 and $5,000 for the vehicle in parts. He already had one ZD Pathfinder in his yard from another local Nissan dealer, and during the week we have been dealing with our cot case, another blown ZD turned up at our dealer.

We have opted to quit the Pathfinder, ultimately getting $4900 from the dealer plus we have made a claim for our RUC charges (about 9700km unused) so we should get some $5100 all up. We think the market price was between $13,000 and $15,000 and had it insured for $13,700ish.

We have probably lost out by some $8,000 to $10,000.

We think 150,000km is a pitance for a diesel vehicle to cover before needing a major repair.

We have now purchased a new Kia Sorrento. It has similar power and torque output as the Pathfinder, but only a 2.5litre engine. So far, the fuel consumption is better on our Hamilton-Tauranga run.


[/b]

[NJV6]

Yes that is a sad story.

Clients at work had a Navara go at under 100,000km and it was about $11,000, from what I gathered Nissan Paid nothing.

[PR]

Bugger

[nz4x4]

Have a ZD30 in a 03 patrol and never had a problem. Fromthe research I have done the problem was resolved in in 03 engines

[KiwiBacon]

Hey Misty.

Did your ZD30 have a variable vane turbo or wastegated type?

[smurf182]

And to think people hang shit on the 2L-T..

[KiwiBacon]

And to think people hang shit on the 2L-T..

The 2L-T wouldn't go out in such style. I've heard the power of a ZD30 about to go is very impressive.

[MistySailor]

Yes, the early NZ Pathfinders have the variable vane turbos.

The factory power specs were 125Kw and 354Nm from memory. But with 15 to 25 psi boost who knows? Normally I think they should be around the 7-8psi.

[Jerry]

I'll think i'll stick with my head cracking 2L-Te

[KiwiBacon]

Yes, the early NZ Pathfinders have the variable vane turbos.

The factory power specs were 125Kw and 354Nm from memory. But with 15 to 25 psi boost who knows? Normally I think they should be around the 7-8psi.

I've heard (i.e. I have no solid proof) that some blowups were due to the vanes sticking in the variable vane turbos. They end up locked in the tight position which gives a lot of boost.
I know garrett recalled some of them (were water cooled) and replaced them with non water cooled versions, the service bulletin is online somewhere. One explanation was a water leak corroding the vanes in position.

[tweake]

hi all. sorry to bump up an oldish post.

there is a good doc at http://users.on.net/~aschulze/ZD30/ZD30 ... -%20BW.pdf (6meg) on the patrol ZD30 problems.

MistySailor has said most of it but i'll ad a bit more.

early pre '03/'04 blocks had oil way problem. nissan band aid fixed it by shortening the dipstick to increase oil capacity. however this makes the oil via breather problem a bit worse especially when the oil is over filled.
while its not a big fault on its own, add in the turbo problems and/or bad servicing its a big factor in the ZD30's over heating the pistons.

the oil mist problem can be fixed by fitting a catch can that has a good filter medium in it to catch the oil mist. an empty can doesn't do it.

bad servicing is a big factor. these motors are high EGR, they get a lot of soot in the oil. using poor oil or incorrect oil (do not use CG grade) results in problems.

boost normally is 15psi or so, over boost cut out is 30psi. however its not the boost that kills it, its the high back pressure on the motor from the turbo which increases EGT's. the high back pressure is due to the turbo being operated incorrectly mostly due to dirty MAF sensor.

the other thing is the EGR valve. if it sticks it causes the turbo to over spin and increase boost and you get increase back pressure.

on these the ECU adjust s the vanes to increase back pressure which is bleed off through the egr valve. the egr valve is what keeps the back pressure down, block the EGR off and you get big backpressure which spins the turbo up and you get big boost.
thats why you need to adjust the turbo if you block the EGR.

the other thing that causes the oil to get on the MAF is a dirty oil filter. i think the factory service interval on the filters is 30k which is 3 times to long. also really common for service guys to just blow dust out of it to keep servicing costs down.

the rusted turbo vanes is something i've only just heard of but its been mentioned that other vehicles have been suffering the same problem.

there is also suggestion that ECU deliberately drops the boost and ups the fuel to increase EGT's to regenerate the cat due to normal cruise EGT's are too cold for it to work properly.

hope that helps

[DaveM]

Hey tweake, good to see your helpful info popping up hee, good reading on the aussie forums, so I'm sure it will be hhelpful here too.

Is steel wool still the go for the catch cans?

[tweake]

steel wool should work a treat with the right designed can. i'm testing my can at the mo using a breather filter as a coalescing filter.

edit: i would recommend any lateish model model diesel motor to use a good catch can. they all rely heavily on the oil spay bars for piston cooling. hence a lot of oil mist is made which gets sucked into the intake, combined with the fine dust that gets through air filter and clogs up the intakes. there is a theory that some of the piston failure is from that build up breaking off and going into the motor and being squished between head and piston.

btw from the pic's i've seen posted the pistons crack on top not in the bowl where the fuel is injected.

[KiwiBacon]

So given the reports I've heard of them going like the clappers just before they go boom, here's my theory based on nothing concrete.

Dirty MAF causing the ECU to go into regen mode as Tweake mentioned. So the ECU is trying to reduce boost (open the turbo vanes) and give extra fuel.
Combine that with sticky turbo vanes so the ECU can't reduce boost and you've got a lot of fuel combined with a lot of boost resulting in a lot of power for a limited time.
Basically until your engine gives you the finger, folds its arms and legs and refuses to work any longer.

Which would of course allow you to pass multiple cars while towing your boat.

[tweake]

theres been several diffent situtions. some the MAF dies and the vanes stay in one place. if your lucky no damage done but otherwise heaps of backprssure =high EGT's.

the more comman seams to be dirty MAF which makes the ECU react very slowly which means it can't keep up with whats the motors doing. so it operates the turbo+egr at the wrong time so you can get heaps of power and extremly high EGT's.

funny thing is most seam to die when cruise or on mild slopes, not at full throttle.

the regen a bit of a theroy but only a few seem to show that behaviour. but having said that people drive their vechiles differently. mayby some are just to kind on the throttle.

also a few pics of very clogged up cats. all that soot got to get through the cat somehow. more backpressure = more EGR = even more soot.
more soot = soot filled engine oil= less piston cooling.

there is a few sites with pics of the vanes and a very rusty backing plate.

is there anyone in NZ doing repairs of those turbo's ?

[KiwiBacon]

theres been several diffent situtions. some the MAF dies and the vanes stay in one place. if your lucky no damage done but otherwise heaps of backprssure =high EGT's.

I'm not convinced of the high backpressure = high EGT theory. Especially since I've currently got backpressure and EGT gauges working in my vehicle.

Creating high backpressure with a turbo is usually creating a lot of boost and extra boost lowers EGT's.
When people try to fit bigger turbos to reduce EGT's they actually get worse. The bigger turbo produces less boost at the same rpm which causes EGT's to rise.
Remember these variable vane turbos can deliver 30psi boost within design limits.

In my experimentation with fixed geometry turbos (variable vane hopefully goes on in the next few months) the higher EGT's get the lower backpressure gets.
Mine have a worst case of 2:1 backpressure to boost in transient operation (i.e. floor it and backpressure can shoot to 40psi while boost hits 20) but as steady state is reached and EGT's climb the backpressure drops.
At cruise I'm running 1.5:1 and EGT's around 450 deg C but as EGT's rise backpressure drops.
At 650 deg C at full load the backpressure has dropped to the boost level provided the revs are below 2000. 20psi boost for 20psi backpressure.
At higher revs exhaust backpressure causes the manifold pressure to rise.

[tweake]

what happens when you run a much to small turbo ?

you also need to remember the EGR system, the more back pressure they run the more EGR gets shoved in (which is exactly whats the variable turbo is designed to do) which increases inlet temps.

i would really be interested in seeing back pressure gauges connected to a patrol to see what it does.

what make/model/setup back pressure gauges are you using ?

[KiwiBacon]

what happens when you run a much to small turbo ?

you also need to remember the EGR system, the more back pressure they run the more EGR gets shoved in (which is exactly whats the variable turbo is designed to do) which increases inlet temps.

i would really be interested in seeing back pressure gauges connected to a patrol to see what it does.

what make/model/setup back pressure gauges are you using ?

I've purposely fitted a way too small turbo (T2/T25 hybrid) to see what happened.
Backpressure went to 4x boost above 3000rpm, 60psi in the exhaust manifold, 15psi in the inlet manifold.
As you'd expect it choked the engine (killing power) and probably blew the exhaust valves back open on the cylinders that were filling.
But EGT wasn't really a problem.

I'm just running a simple pressure gauge, a high reading boost gauge or oil pressure gauge would be ideal. Run steel line from the exhaust manifold for the first few cm, copper and brass will soften and loosen at exhaust temps. You can run whatever you like once you're a decent distance away.

It's worth putting in some intermediate fittings where you can introduce a restriction to stop needle chatter.


*edit*
Regarding catch cans, my stock Isuzu one simply had a plate which the breather tube blew against to seperate out the oil. It works well on a healthy engine but when blowby picks up (like when your air cleaner lets in a lot of dust) it gets overwhelmed and passes a lot of oil.

I tried steelwool inside without an improvement.
I then made a new vortex type which spins the oil out of the air through two stages. It works the best and should create the least pressure drop.
The problem with pressure drop in a catch can is it can stop oil draining down the tube back to the sump.
*/edit*

[DaveM]

The problem with pressure drop in a catch can is it can stop oil draining down the tube back to the sump.
*/edit*

Are there different types?
The aussie guys just the use cans that you empty from time to time, they don't go back to the sump, thats what I'll be doing

[tweake]

i'm surprised the EGT's didn't skyrocket (i'm assuming you where measuring before turbo and not after it).
mind you, you probably don't have EGR fitted

catch can.... the oil mist these motors pump out doesn't really settle on a plate, the oil mist is way to fine. it stays suspended in the air quite easily. its really noticeable when you turn the motor off and pull the breather hose off, the oil mist continues to pour out.

[tweake]

The problem with pressure drop in a catch can is it can stop oil draining down the tube back to the sump.
*/edit*

Are there different types?
The aussie guys just the use cans that you empty from time to time, they don't go back to the sump, thats what I'll be doing

depends on how much oil you get blown through. with lots of oil they put a return line in to save them empting the can every week. with low amounts of oil you simply empty the can when you do an oil change.

my can on the navara

[KiwiBacon]

i'm surprised the EGT's didn't skyrocket (i'm assuming you where measuring before turbo and not after it).
mind you, you probably don't have EGR fitted

catch can.... the oil mist these motors pump out doesn't really settle on a plate, the oil mist is way to fine. it stays suspended in the air quite easily. its really noticeable when you turn the motor off and pull the breather hose off, the oil mist continues to pour out.

I imagine the EGT would have kept climbing if I'd kept my foot in it, but aside from the pressure reading the complete lack of power was a sure sign something was wrong.

The one time I watched the EGT instantly skyrocket was when I blew a turbo. Strangely the EGT jumped to 800 (up from 600) before the boost gauge dropped or the rumble started.
In case you're wondering, it was that T2/T25 hybrid and it had lost an oil line the week before so it's days were numbered.

My Isuzu has oil jets, but the breather also circuits around the back half of the rocker cover before exiting via hose and entering the factory oil/air seperator (the one that originally had just a settling plate). The catch can in these drains to the sump, it's about the size of a beer can.

No EGR on mine. It turns 22 this year.

[tweake]

I imagine the EGT would have kept climbing if I'd kept my foot in it, but aside from the pressure reading the complete lack of power was a sure sign something was wrong.

because the problems at part throttle i think the ECU just adds more fuel and then learns it so it always does it. you don't notice the power drop because you still have normall power at full throttle. poeple have reported heavy fuel use which sounds right if you have large amounts of back pressure at cruise.

your lucky that thing dosn't have EGR. i havn't seen an EGR sytem that hasn't been a problem. even the navara one was causeing problems.

[KiwiBacon]

your lucky that thing dosn't have EGR. i havn't seen an EGR sytem that hasn't been a problem. even the navara one was causeing problems.

The EGR on my nissan Avenir is working great.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I know a petrol econobox is immune from a turbo diesels problems.

[cosmo]

heard from a very exprienced mechanic who was in the process of rebuilding one of these that the problem lies in the capacity of the sump the problem one will hold 6 litres whilst the better model holds 8

[tweake]

heard from a very exprienced mechanic who was in the process of rebuilding one of these that the problem lies in the capacity of the sump the problem one will hold 6 litres whilst the better model holds 8

nissan did a oil capacity increase on the patrols, i assume the navara would be the same. they increased it by shortening the dipstick.

afaik the biggest cause of the problem was oil ways in the block which where changed around '03. the reco engine kit from nissan comes complete with new block !

[cosmo1]

its also the huge cost involved wouldnt touch one with a barge pole talking to a nissan dealer the other day about it and got told (a) the last 2 they did for customers where $10 k a piece nissan paid out on a nz new car that was out of warrenty the other was a import so customer had to pay (b) mate of mine brought one over xmas without me knowing and because dealer maxed him out to get him into it didnt sell him a warrenty so been trying to get him one (in the trade) and found out most aftermarket warrenty companies have a $5k max per claim clause (c) same nissan dealer said any that they traded were sent straight to auctions because of the motors