GOD WINCHES ETC and 4x4 CHALLENGES

[monstr]

Right I want to get a bit of feed back re winches in general my feelings is that there shoukld be a rule change regarding these and other types of winches .at present to comply with winch challenge rules you must have a automatic brake ,my question is Why ? any one that uses a PTO winch will tell you that if it turns to custard while winching the first thing you do is hit the clutch and brake to hold the truck where it is we dont rely on the brake within the winch so why does it have to be automatic ? why cant we have a manually opperated brake system so unless you have a total brake failure things are still safe .the only real problem i have seen over the years is when a rope breaks and then it doesnt matter what type of brake you have .I intend putting through a request for a rule change on this basically asking that the wording Automatic be removed from the rules to allow the use of a manually operated brake..Any Thoughts

[LOLYF]

sounds good to me Steve, and means the plan i have for my truck would make it legal for winch challenges. Not that i intend to enter any mind you

[NJV6]

Agreed most of the problems stem from rope breakages and no brake is going to fix that....

The automatic brake has been questionable for a while overseas hasn't it??... thinking malaysia etc

The idea with PTO is if the sheer pin brakes the vehicle can't take off due to the worm gear design.

So long as they had a brake of some sort then it should be ok.....

[meatc]

I hear ya Steve but some reasearch that I am doing at the moment and soon to do a mark 1 test with suggests there is a simple comercially avalible solution that could be made to work ona huge range of winchs including pto, god, hydro and electric.

Also from what I have seen hydro winches rely on the hydrolic lock causes when the valve are shut, this is only good until a hose blows, 8274s are reputed to have a weak brake shaft, once that lets go no brake....

So to that end I feel the rule should be something along the lines of a system to hold the vehicle stationary on a loaded winch cable, how it works, do we really care? Maunually activated, driver controled, eletronci override, pneumatic engaged ratchet they all work.

[monstr]

The research i have done on these over the past year or so leads me to believe that the ones that are in operation over seas that would comply with our current rules are to reliant on micro switches, air rams controling ratchet systems.etc that could fail given what we do with our trucks ,thinking about it why not just have the option to just fit a manual brake ,something along the lines of what Craig has done Hyd disc brake on the drum ,would work out cheaper,less prone to failure.and in the end prob safer

[monstr]

Hi Dan i hear what you are saying ,but i think we have to encourage guys that think out of the square ,that develop new ideas and put them into practice in the end we all benefit ,i just think the current rules are over protective and flawed ,im a great believer of the KISS system and the less hi tec crap i have on my truck the better Dion and i have talked about building a winch for quite awhile now the only thing that stopped us was the weak Nissan pto drive ,we now have that sorted and we know we can build a safe winch with a operational manual brake for under 2k thats got to be better than paying 4k plus for a warn hi mount etc

[Drurban]

Just an observation with the God winch is that it has a ratchet which means it automatically locks when the truck moves forward so when it the truck stop's moving it wont go anywhere, depends on the condition of the track, for example on the track I was Marshalling one of the truck's managed to winch to a spot only to find that once the winch came off he slid back down lucky the tree was there otherwise it would of ended badly.

which brings me to the hyd disc brake on the god winch? what purpose does this serve when the ratchet does the braking, Iam understanding it wrong?

But I agree with you Steve the wording should be changed.

Ruben

[mudlva]

yep right behind you here Steve

my winch wont comply at the moment due to no auto brake system im designing a brake dics/ calaper system that engaged automaticly but what a nightmere regarding microswitches

a manuel system would be right up there in my books amnd as mentioned when the rope brakes it doesnt mean diddly does it

cheers Rohan

[jeremy]

When you think about it... when you're attempting to drive a hill, you have heaps of power on with heaps of wheel speed and often end up bouncing here there and everywhere, and then when you don't make it, there's no automatic brake to hold you in place. You have to think fast, grab reverse and hopefully keep things under control.

In contrast, when you are winching, you are going slower (maybe not for mad men like craig ), you are going in a straight-ish line and generally well under control.

Yes, I think to manage the safety factor we do need a brake of some sort on the winch, but I can't see any reason why that can't be manually operated without any sacrifice to safety.

As a basic example, a hydraulic disk brake on the drum, with a hydraulic hand brake lever setup inside the car would make for a very simple, reliable, and most importantly safe brake setup. Operation would be just like your normal emergency brake, so when you're winching up a hill, and want to stop, you simply pull on the winch hand brake.

I'm sure there are many other simple manual brake setups that would work well, and be reliable and safe.

The requirement to have an 'automatic brake', as those of us who have been scratching our heads for the last few years know, is one with no easy answer, and that leads to a lot more complicated ideas (at least it does for me). And it's the complicated stuff that often ends up being unreliable and potentially un-safe. So like both Steve and Dan suggest, allowing a manual brake probably improves safety by making it easier for us to build a brake setup that's reliable.

[kbushnz]

Looking from the outside in....
I get the feeling that the general "Autobrake" requirement is from a "manufactures" point of view. Health and Saftey.
It is there so that at the end of winching and you are hanging on the rope the winch wont free spool back. So you are held in place. Simple.
Butt covering from the Winch makers.
Now there are all sorts of ways the "manufacturers" achieve this.
Cones and cams, ratchets, Hyd lock, Worm gears etc etc. All can fail.....

Now moving on to Custom builds, from a Saftey point of view as long as there is a method to stop the winch from free spooling out at the end of winching what does it matter if its an Automatic or manual setup.
As long as it has the ability to achieve it.
Then the responcilbilty to ensure it is set has moved from the "manufacturer in his / her design" to the operator.

The only issue I can see... (from a novice point of view)
Is lets say you are winching up a huge incline, stop winching but the truck wont hold.
If you dont have an "Auto brake" it will just freespool out until you grab the "manual" Brake.
More work for the driver / winch man.
If you are in panic mode its one more thing you need to think about and do.
If you dont grab it in time you may have to start winching again and load up the system (winch running backwards) and shock load it... Breakages.
Or grab the brake and it stops hard.....Another shock load.

As for the GOD winch, the ratchet is the ultimate brake. Just need a way to hold drum while you unlock it.

Calvin

[mudlva]

Looking from the outside in....
I get the feeling that the general "Autobrake" requirement is from a "manufactures" point of view. Health and Saftey.
It is there so that at the end of winching and you are hanging on the rope the winch wont free spool back. So you are held in place. Simple.
Butt covering from the Winch makers.
Now there are all sorts of ways the "manufacturers" achieve this.
Cones and cams, ratchets, Hyd lock, Worm gears etc etc. All can fail.....

Now moving on to Custom builds, from a Saftey point of view as long as there is a method to stop the winch from free spooling out at the end of winching what does it matter if its an Automatic or manual setup.
As long as it has the ability to achieve it.
Then the responcilbilty to ensure it is set has moved from the "manufacturer in his / her design" to the operator.

The only issue I can see... (from a novice point of view)
Is lets say you are winching up a huge incline, stop winching but the truck wont hold.
If you dont have an "Auto brake" it will just freespool out until you grab the "manual" Brake.
More work for the driver / winch man.
If you are in panic mode its one more thing you need to think about and do.
If you dont grab it in time you may have to start winching again and load up the system (winch running backwards) and shock load it... Breakages.
Or grab the brake and it stops hard.....Another shock load.

As for the GOD winch, the ratchet is the ultimate brake. Just need a way to hold drum while you unlock it.

Calvin

I here whet you are say Calvin...
But...
Speaking for myself only
Guys that build custom winches are most likely experienced drivers. This would mean that they already know there trucks and are far more likely to know when and where the winch will hold and where it wont.

In regards to my hydraulic winch it will hold the truck on its side so I can do a CV exchange repair and it will hold another truck stationary but if the truck wants to really drive hard it will pull rope off the drum. As yet I haven’t competed in challenges due to it not having the said auto brake. I have done the concept drawings to install a calliper and this was/is going to work off the park/ hand brake lever.

Being this is not auto then it still wont comply with challenge rules...
But
If the rules are changed then there is a chance that it will

Personally I think the issue of brakes should fall back to the competitor as at the moment in all the bush hard runs that I have done I have only been in need of a brake once and that was to haul my truck off the side of the track when i blew my steering box apart, in the end we changed attack and did the job better and more safe anyway, with out the need of a braking system.

If you require a brake to lower yourself or another vehicle down a decent bank then the ratchet brakes are just crap as they will not allow smooth release of the cable outwards which is the only place that I think a brake is really necessary

Again just my thoughts but also to give suggestions on why the word “auto’ should be removed

Cheers Rohan

[jeremy]

The only issue I can see... (from a novice point of view)
Is lets say you are winching up a huge incline, stop winching but the truck wont hold.
If you dont have an "Auto brake" it will just freespool out until you grab the "manual" Brake.
More work for the driver / winch man.
If you are in panic mode its one more thing you need to think about and do.
If you dont grab it in time you may have to start winching again and load up the system (winch running backwards) and shock load it... Breakages.
Or grab the brake and it stops hard.....Another shock load.

Yes, there is that potential. But like Rohan says that will simply come down to having a bit of practice when you first setup a custom winch. PTO winches in general require a bit of practice to get used to if you have been spoilt with the simplicity of an electric winch - so it would just be part of the learning curve.

With a manual brake setup, you can design something that can be smoothly applied and released so like Rohan also said it makes controlled descents possible, and in this case could easily bring the winch to a stop.

With a PTO driven winch, it wouldn't be an issue when you are winching and driving - as the winch is directly connected to the wheels through the drivetrain, so when you have to stop, and you hit the brake pedal (your normal wheel brakes) the winch would then be braked as well as all four wheels.

[monstr]

Have sent this to the Rules committee ,hopefully wheels will start turning and i will get a response in the not to distant future

Hi Guys I would like to propose a rule change regarding the need /requirement for an automatic brake on a winch, I would like to see the wording changed to allow the fitment of a manually operated brake .I think there still needs to be a requirement to have a brake for safety reasons but that it doesn’t need to be automatically activated .I can see in the not to distant future that there will be an influx of the God type winch and with the present rile people will be going to micro switches and home made ratchets ,air activated rams etc that will be prone to failure .as an event organiser I would much rather have competitors with manually operated brakes than brakes that could fail .I don’t see this as a step backwards in safety as the competitor that is likely to build and operate this type of winch would be the more experienced competitor and more than likely know its limits and what to do if things go wrong .

Yours Sincerely

Stephen Reed

[kbushnz]

Naturally I show my race creed ignorance here.

Currently there are several brake methods.
Electric winch (generally) has a friction brake to stop it unwinding back thru the motor.
Winches that uses a worm and gear (pto typically) will brake or not allow the drum to unwind by inherent nature of the worm gear.
Hydraulic winches can use the Hydraulic lock method or have a worm gear drive or friction brake.

What ever form of winch is used you need some device to stop it spooling out when under load and you "want" to remain in place.
Forget about the winching out bit.......

What all these do is to stop the drum back winding.
If you cant hold the winch its pretty useless.

So the rule could be re written to say "The winch must have the facility to lock / brake the drum so as not to spool out when under load"

I enjoy these discussions

Calvin

[mudlva]

i tend to think what Steve is drafting is better Calvin in that it is simple

The winch must have a "braking mechinisism" easy simple and clear by removing the "auto" word the rule is still easy to understand

i try and use the kis principle of "keep it simple" a bit like me at times

[monstr]

Yep just trying to keep it simple ,if you were to try and cover every situation nothing would ever get changed .Just thinking about it even the PTO winch has problems ,i can recall us winching up a steep hill heard a loud crack result was we spat the worm drive out of the winch instinct took over and hit both brake and clutch as the winch wasnt going to stop us going backwards

[Madaz]

Also from what I have seen hydro winches rely on the hydrolic lock causes when the valve are shut, this is only good until a hose blows.

This in incorrect for hydro superwinches, they have a failsafe setup where the brake requires 350psi of imput pressure to turn off. If a hose was to blow it will jam the brake on. This is why superwinches sound like they are blowing up as you reverse winch downhill, because you have to get enough pressure/speed flow into them to turn the break off.

Cheers

[terranonutver2]

interesting reading alright have to agree with calvin winch is pretty useless without automatic load holding ability there are a number of easy ways to make these as i have been looking at building a winch myself.

I guess the main point is as pointed out earlier if you are doing a tricky recovery or carefully lowering somebody back down a hill or winch a steep hill and stop randomly while on the winch the last thing you will be thinking of doing is trying to flick on some manual brake. I have had many occasions while halfway up steep hills on the winch that you stop reverse and realign at which point your vehicle brakes would have no chance of holding you.

As to the comments about winchs actually failing or ropes breaking thats like and it exciting at least the rest of the time you have some control.

Cheers

[lincooln]

just thinking that a manual brake such as a hand operated one hat uses a disc and calipers would be ideal to slowly lower down / let out the winch? You would have great control of speed etc. I could be wrong but thats how I see it working in any case.

It is a great idea Steve, hope it gets through the committee

[Klembo]

God Winch? .
What is it? .
Why should it be different too all other winches? .
Why is the auto brake not required for this thing? .
IS IT SOME THING SPECIAL .
Please Explain.

(Keep gear failure out of the answer please)

Rules are for safety not to make life easy.

Think i might put an auto in my truck then i can get rid of the hand brake (it always needs repair) and just use the park in the auto get the rules changed ,Sweet as .

If you really Need to run this type of winch set it up put it in club class (or super mod) for a trial. Best to get some under standing on this winch. You just might find you will ban it in nz comps due to some one getting killed when the ground anchor goes through the front window of your truck.


Just beacuse it is used in OZ does not mean it will work here, Remember all the winch motors the OZ,s used out here (26 comes to mind -- MUD MUD AND MORE MUD)

Just might have to build one

Cheers Klembo

[darinz]

Interesting arguement.

This is the exact wording and only thing around brakes in the rules.

Winches must have an operational automatic braking system which cannot be manually overridden to
prevent un-spooling when winching is halted.

The points for auto brake are pretty simple. Winching stops, then winch holds vehicle in place.

The main point for removing it is cost.

Now a point to consider.

Any winch that disegages the brake or over rides it for freespool doesn't comply with the rule anyway.

As for the power of Godwinches. You can do the same with hydraulics they just cost alot more!

[Ralfie]

Interesting arguement.

This is the exact wording and only thing around brakes in the rules.

Winches must have an operational automatic braking system which cannot be manually overridden to
prevent un-spooling when winching is halted.

The points for auto brake are pretty simple. Winching stops, then winch holds vehicle in place.

The main point for removing it is cost.

Now a point to consider.

Any winch that disegages the brake or over rides it for freespool doesn't comply with the rule anyway.

As for the power of Godwinches. You can do the same with hydraulics they just cost alot more!

Its always said that the rules are there for safety. So rather than change the rules and make things unsafe how about enforcing the rules to ensure all winches comply?

its a bit contradictory saying the rules are for safety yet remove a safety rule to allow unsafe practises come in. That's asking for trouble.

When you say "The main point for removing it is cost." what are you removing and what cost is involved?

[monstr]

:?: God Winch? .
What is it? .
Why should it be different too all other winches? .
Why is the auto brake not required for this thing? .
IS IT SOME THING SPECIAL .
Please Explain.

(Keep gear failure out of the answer please)

Rules are for safety not to make life easy.

Think i might put an auto in my truck then i can get rid of the hand brake (it always needs repair) and just use the park in the auto get the rules changed ,Sweet as .

If you really Need to run this type of winch set it up put it in club class (or super mod) for a trial. Best to get some under standing on this winch. You just might find you will ban it in nz comps due to some one getting killed when the ground anchor goes through the front window of your truck.


Just beacuse it is used in OZ does not mean it will work here, Remember all the winch motors the OZ,s used out here (26 comes to mind -- MUD MUD AND MORE MUD)

Just might have to build one

Cheers Klembo

Hi Klem ,Google it they have been using them in Malaysia and Russia for years with no problems ,Why is any more unsafe than 99% of the trucks competing now with in cab free spools ? if you want to follow the rules as they are written then none of these would comply?as all of them allow the brake to be overridden .Im not saying do away with the brake im saying allow them to run with a manually opperated brake .Why allow them to be trialled in Club or modified class?are we now using thoses classes to sort out any potential problems now.If we hadnt encouraged the sport to evolve and move forward we would all be still driveng stock standard trucks ," cant put a v8 supercharged motor in a hilux or big turbo on a Nissan you might go to fast and hurt yourself" I hear the Warehouse has a big sale on Cotton Wool

[meatc]

Why is any more unsafe than 99% of the trucks competing now with in cab free spools ? if you want to follow the rules as they are written then none of these would comply?as all of them allow the brake to be overridden

Are you sure the brake can be over ridden on 99% of them? I think you will find most are like mine and ther is not the mechanical advantage in the free spool activation to get it into free spool under load.

Mine for example will not go into free spool if the coey is pulling load onto the rope, it has to be slack. There is to much surface friction in the splines invloved to be over come with the leverage the freespool has, it would snap the activation cable before it dropped into freespool.

Lowmount electric are the same, the load on the drum still loads the gearset, and there is insufficent leverage to release them with a factory free spool lever.

I hear what you are saying and yeap there prob are whinches that push the limits and should perhaps be looked at but there is a difference between manually activated and a chance of knocking it into freespool.

As I have said before I am looking at something a bit different because I want to get rid of the overrun on my 8274, I am hoping it will mean i can loose the factory brake to (just cause I dont want 2 brakes) as part of this I have looked at manually actived overrun brakes and to be honest the time to get from in switch to activating a manual brake is too long, there is still up to a couple of meters of overrun, and I'm not sure I would want to slide back 2 M the have a manual brake activate suddenly. I am not against new stuff or even a manual brake system but getting it safe and effective ?? well hmm

[jeremy]

:?: God Winch? .
What is it? .

They have many other names as well, sun winch, spirit winch, suicide winch, and my personal favourite... rocket winch. But basically it's just the idea of a PTO winch using a small diff (or at least the ring and pinion out of a diff) as the main gearbox.

The Malaysians have been building and running these winches for years now.

Rules are for safety not to make life easy.

Yes rules are for safety, but safety is about managing a risk factor. So the question is, does a manual winch brake suitably manage the risk factor?

Best to get some under standing on this winch.

Although Craig's winch maybe the first of these style winches built in NZ (I have heard rumors of one built down south), many have been thinking about it for some time now. And it's not a new idea, but one that's been used for some time overseas, so we are not running blind. There's is plenty of video footage out there that shows you how they work, and most run without any brake at all - so some of us have some understanding of this style of winch.

When I first started looking into these winches, my initial thoughts were that I would never run a winch without an automatic brake of some sort. But as I began to learn more about them, look into the different options, and evaluate the risks, I realised how a manual brake could be an advantage, from a usability point of view, and also that due to the controlled nature of winching, relying on the driver to activate a brake when coming to a stop on an incline is not a big deal, especially when considering what we rely on them to do when they are attempting to drive whatever obstacle you're about to winch.

But the discussion is not just about one particular winch, but all custom winches and how this rule affects them and promotes innovation and growth in winch challenge.

Mudlvas hydraulic winch is just one example of someone who's put together a well built custom winch that could compete in winch challenge, and with a brake system that is safe and reliable, if this rule change were to happen.

[Madaz]

Why is any more unsafe than 99% of the trucks competing now with in cab free spools ? if you want to follow the rules as they are written then none of these would comply?as all of them allow the brake to be overridden

Are you sure the brake can be over ridden on 99% of them? I think you will find most are like mine and ther is not the mechanical advantage in the free spool activation to get it into free spool under load.

Mine for example will not go into free spool if the coey is pulling load onto the rope, it has to be slack. There is to much surface friction in the splines invloved to be over come with the leverage the freespool has, it would snap the activation cable before it dropped into freespool.

Lowmount electric are the same, the load on the drum still loads the gearset, and there is insufficent leverage to release them with a factory free spool lever.

I hear what you are saying and yeap there prob are whinches that push the limits and should perhaps be looked at but there is a difference between manually activated and a chance of knocking it into freespool.

As I have said before I am looking at something a bit different because I want to get rid of the overrun on my 8274, I am hoping it will mean i can loose the factory brake to (just cause I dont want 2 brakes) as part of this I have looked at manually actived overrun brakes and to be honest the time to get from in switch to activating a manual brake is too long, there is still up to a couple of meters of overrun, and I'm not sure I would want to slide back 2 M the have a manual brake activate suddenly. I am not against new stuff or even a manual brake system but getting it safe and effective ?? well hmm

X2
Exactly Dan, your spot on.
There isnt the time to work a manual brake in a comp situation & if you could the shock loading on the winch components would shurly wreck something, or worse still break the rope.

There are ways to put automatic brakes on god winches, it just seems that some people find it easier to change the rules than think outside the square.

[wopass]

Winches must have an operational automatic braking system which cannot be manually overridden to
prevent un-spooling when winching is halted.

The points for auto brake are pretty simple. Winching stops, then winch holds vehicle in place.

The main point for removing it is cost.

Now a point to consider.

Any winch that disegages the brake or over rides it for freespool doesn't comply with the rule anyway.

incorrect. it quite clearly states "WHEN WINCHING IS HALTED" this means when your winching and you stop. not when you spool some rope out when its not under load.

manual brake?? if your up the side of a hill on the winch and something happened and you were to reach for a manual brake... by the time you got it on it would be waaaaaay to late.

keep it safe fullas

[Klembo]

Thanks to those who answered my question.

I have had a look at other Fast winches (god type)
And looks like the main difference is the gear ratio is lower than 5:1 and any sort of brake will do.

The reason for putting a trial in place in a different class is it is easer to change rules or add rules where there are less rules or modified rules in place.

Free spool. My free spool will not work if there is any load on the rope ( pto or my elec winch)

Now that i have got the cotton wool cheap (Thanks Steve for the heads up were to buy it) I can stuff it in my cab to stop the ground anchor hitting me when my super fast winch pulls it out of the ground.

The fastest winch does not make you the comp winner or the biggest budget just helps

There are lots of ways to make a auto brake with out all the micro switches or bells and whistles.

[mudlva]

There are lots of ways to make a auto brake with out all the micro switches or bells and whistles.[/quote]


please add more info for other options

the best that i have is either a ratchet type system which will auto lock but not allow smooth release when wanting to decent

hydralic motor valves which will also auto lock but will also not allow smooth decent

calaper brake which is alot harder to auto lock but will allow smooth decent

regarding conventenial pto driven winches that rely on a worm and gear this will only really hold when the gear ratio is above 30/1 and the smaller the ratio the easier it is to pull rope off the drum

i have also sceen these winces pull rope off the drum when being used to decent especially when the clutch was depressed

im all ears when it comes to R&D

[meatc]

The fastest winch does not make you the comp winner or the biggest budget just helps

Amen to that. We won the superwinch at easter with a home modified twin motor 8274 with freespool in a truck that with all the disposal bits (rope, tyres etc) owes me less than 15k

please add more info for other options

im all ears when it comes to R&D

RThink outside the square and move away from recovery winches, how do overhead cranes work, how do power tools stop over run, how do golfcarts brake, what about electric cars......... the options are endless and some more reliable than what we are using now. Cam gears are easy, although maybe expensive if you have them custom made.