Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

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WRNGLR
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Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby WRNGLR » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:07 am

anyone read the 4x4 tyre size= track damage blurb in the September NZ4wd mag. Looks like Muzzaduck aka Murray Waters strikes again, pushing his tire size theory on everyone, and this time he's gone as far as to say Peter Vahry is "well meaning but misguided"
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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby LOLYF » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:18 am

We received an "open letter" to our 4wheel drive club from that idiot a couple of weeks ago, had the whole club in stitches :lol: :lol: .

We elected to ignore it as replying would just add fuel to his fire.

I'll have to get the mag and see if it's all the same crap.

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby Mudde1 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:59 pm

WRNGLR wrote:anyone read the 4x4 tyre size= track damage blurb in the September NZ4wd mag. Looks like Muzzaduck aka Murray Waters strikes again, pushing his tire size theory on everyone, and this time he's gone as far as to say Peter Vahry is "well meaning but misguided"

NZFWDA also received a copy of the letter. We have written to him him and thanked him for his letter and but don't intend to do any more about it.
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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby Sadam_Husain » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:01 pm

to be honest other than my truck being on the front cover of that edition I think Murray Fluffyducks letter was probably the best part of the whole mag I usually find theres nothing much of interest to read in it its all about brand new soft roaders and David Coxon's articles that would probably be better off submitted to the Womans Weekly than a 4WD mag. Whether you agree with fluffyducks opinion or not and although I support what hes advocating about the need for track management I dont find him or his flawed arguements paticulary credible but its his opinion and hes entitled to it the same as the rest of us are entitled to our opinions. A regular letters to the editor collum with left and right views might help lift my interest in the mag Image

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby MikeL200 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:18 pm

Sadam_Husain wrote:to be honest other than my truck being on the front cover of that edition I think Murray Fluffyducks letter was probably the best part of the whole mag I usually find theres nothing much of interest to read in it its all about brand new soft roaders and David Coxon's articles that would probably be better off submitted to the Womans Weekly than a 4WD mag. Whether you agree with fluffyducks opinion or not and although I support what hes advocating about the need for track management I dont find him or his flawed arguements paticulary credible but its his opinion and hes entitled to it the same as the rest of us are entitled to our opinions. A regular letters to the editor collum with left and right views might help lift my interest in the mag Image


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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby DaveM » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:07 pm

Sadam_Husain wrote:to be honest other than my truck being on the front cover of that edition I think Murray Fluffyducks letter was probably the best part of the whole mag I usually find theres nothing much of interest to read in it its all about brand new soft roaders and David Coxon's articles that would probably be better off submitted to the Womans Weekly than a 4WD mag. Whether you agree with fluffyducks opinion or not and although I support what hes advocating about the need for track management I dont find him or his flawed arguements paticulary credible but its his opinion and hes entitled to it the same as the rest of us are entitled to our opinions. A regular letters to the editor collum with left and right views might help lift my interest in the mag Image

I agree, and await the day that you need to have a club chit to run larger than 33" tyres

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby Ralfie » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:14 am

Sadam_Husain wrote: A regular letters to the editor collum with left and right views might help lift my interest in the mag Image


Most people these days are quick to say their little piece on forums like this, but don't take the time to write letters to editors of magazines anymore. Otherwise there would be more conflicting views expressed in publications, womans weekly or otherwise.
Murray Fluffyduck apparently did, so gets his point out there.

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby lin » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:58 am

I've read the letter from Murray Waters. Firstly there seems to be a certain obsessiveness on the part of the writer that "his way is the right way" . Anyone disagreeing with his viewpoint might be labelled a "track vandal".

Secondly, his assertion that tyres with a greater diameter than 33 inches cause excessive track damage. Is it supported by evidence? He certainly offers plenty of opinion, but where is the science-based evidence?

If we start with the hypothesis that a spinning wheel does far more damage than a rolling wheel, then:

1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage.

2. A larger diameter tyre has a lower ground pressure than a smaller diameter tyre due to it's longer footprint. P = F/A. Ground pressure (P) is simply the weight of the vehicle (F) divided by the sum of all tyres ground contact area (A) The lower the ground pressure the less damage caused by a rolling wheel. The higher the ground pressure the more the tyre will sink into the surface, eventually leading to loss of forward traction and wheelspin.

Imagine a fully loaded VX on 30 inch tyres. It would cut grooves up to the diffs. Conversely a little Suzuki on 36 inch tyres would almost float over the softest terrain causing little or no damage.

In my view the problem that Murray Waters wants to address is not caused by tyre size, but by tyre use. There are idiots out there who will fit 36 inch tyres and rip up the countryside. But there are also idiots of equal ranking that will do it with 33 inch tyres. So taking away the 36 inch tyres won't take away the idiot, it'll just transfer him to a 33 inch tyre.

Or am I being too simple?

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby TJ » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:48 am

Lin, a well thought out argument. Have you written to the magazine or just posted here.
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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby DieselBoy » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:01 am

I say write the letter, that gives who ever does, the last word :D :D
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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby ladeda » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am

lin wrote:I've read the letter from Murray Waters. Firstly there seems to be a certain obsessiveness on the part of the writer that "his way is the right way" . Anyone disagreeing with his viewpoint might be labelled a "track vandal".

Secondly, his assertion that tyres with a greater diameter than 33 inches cause excessive track damage. Is it supported by evidence? He certainly offers plenty of opinion, but where is the science-based evidence?

If we start with the hypothesis that a spinning wheel does far more damage than a rolling wheel, then:

1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage.

2. A larger diameter tyre has a lower ground pressure than a smaller diameter tyre due to it's longer footprint. P = F/A. Ground pressure (P) is simply the weight of the vehicle (F) divided by the sum of all tyres ground contact area (A) The lower the ground pressure the less damage caused by a rolling wheel. The higher the ground pressure the more the tyre will sink into the surface, eventually leading to loss of forward traction and wheelspin.

Imagine a fully loaded VX on 30 inch tyres. It would cut grooves up to the diffs. Conversely a little Suzuki on 36 inch tyres would almost float over the softest terrain causing little or no damage.

In my view the problem that Murray Waters wants to address is not caused by tyre size, but by tyre use. There are idiots out there who will fit 36 inch tyres and rip up the countryside. But there are also idiots of equal ranking that will do it with 33 inch tyres. So taking away the 36 inch tyres won't take away the idiot, it'll just transfer him to a 33 inch tyre.

Or am I being too simple?



Perfect. please post this info to the 4wd mag to be printed. It is exactly the point of view from the other side that needs to be printed.

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby Sadam_Husain » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:31 am

ladeda wrote:Perfect. please post this info to the 4wd mag to be printed. It is exactly the point of view from the other side that needs to be printed.



yeah with a blackboard, a couple of pieces of chalk, a ruler and a protractor it dosent take much to pull the arguement from 43 years of 4x4 experience apart Image

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby lin » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:39 am

TJ wrote:Lin, a well thought out argument. Have you written to the magazine or just posted here.

Just posted it here and in our club's internal email.

Be happy to publish it in the magazine if I knew how....

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby LR90NZ » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:45 am

lin wrote:
TJ wrote:Lin, a well thought out argument. Have you written to the magazine or just posted here.

Just posted it here and in our club's internal email.

Be happy to publish it in the magazine if I knew how....


P O Box 65092, Mairangi Bay, Auckland 0754 or
email editor@nz4wd.co.nz

Don't forget to include your name and address

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby lin » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:20 pm

LR90NZ wrote:
lin wrote:
TJ wrote:Lin, a well thought out argument. Have you written to the magazine or just posted here.

Just posted it here and in our club's internal email.

Be happy to publish it in the magazine if I knew how....


P O Box 65092, Mairangi Bay, Auckland 0754 or
email editor@nz4wd.co.nz

Don't forget to include your name and address


Done.

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby Zooker » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:29 pm

DieselBoy wrote:I say write the letter, that gives who ever does, the last word :D :D


You can never have the last word when greenies are involved mate.
They seem to have nothing else to do.
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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby 7mm Rem Magnum » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:39 pm

1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage. (Quote)

True indead. This could be argued but what when the gearing is changed so the torque is once again the same when applied to the 36 inch tyre....
Also, what about fitting a more powerfull engine like a V8 in a Hibux...which seems to negate the above argument.

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby 7mm Rem Magnum » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:46 pm

Imagine a fully loaded VX on 30 inch tyres. It would cut grooves up to the diffs. Conversely a little Suzuki on 36 inch tyres would almost float over the softest terrain causing little or no damage (quote)


So what about a VX on 36 inch tyres on soft ground? This will also "cut grooves up to the diffs". Then all the VX,s with tyres that are smaller than the one cutting the 36 inch grooves is bellied in the ruts even when the track becomes bone dry. Something to think about?

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby lin » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:52 pm

7mm Rem Magnum wrote:Imagine a fully loaded VX on 30 inch tyres. It would cut grooves up to the diffs. Conversely a little Suzuki on 36 inch tyres would almost float over the softest terrain causing little or no damage (quote)


So what about a VX on 36 inch tyres on soft ground? This will also "cut grooves up to the diffs". Then all the VX,s with tyres that are smaller than the one cutting the 36 inch grooves is bellied in the ruts even when the track becomes bone dry. Something to think about?


You don't seem to grasp the fundamentals 7mm....... We are trying to illustrate the principle of ground pressure here. The 36" tyres on a VX (compared to 30" tyres on a VX) would have a greater contact area and be less likely to sink in and spin ON THE SAME TERRAIN.
Last edited by lin on Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby DieselBoy » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:58 pm

This is the thread to discuss the Merritt's of the tyre size debate:

http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/Forums/ ... 27&t=32161

Don't clutter this one up to much, unless you have a better response than that which has been submitted so far :D :D
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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby lin » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:01 pm

7mm Rem Magnum wrote:1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage. (Quote)

True indead. This could be argued but what when the gearing is changed so the torque is once again the same when applied to the 36 inch tyre....
Also, what about fitting a more powerfull engine like a V8 in a Hibux...which seems to negate the above argument.


Oh dear. Did you not read "For a given applied drive torque"

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby lilpigzuk » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:30 pm

lin wrote:
7mm Rem Magnum wrote:1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage. (Quote)

True indead. This could be argued but what when the gearing is changed so the torque is once again the same when applied to the 36 inch tyre....
Also, what about fitting a more powerfull engine like a V8 in a Hibux...which seems to negate the above argument.




Oh dear. Did you not read "For a given applied drive torque"


Being this person has just joined the forum today at 12.15 and supporting the other clown, Be prepared to argue and argue and argue..... :|

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby slide » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:00 pm

lin wrote:1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage.



And the 36" tyre will require more torque to spin, not only from less leverage, but larger contact patch will give more traction. (comparing same width tyre)

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Re: Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

Postby ladeda » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:26 pm

7mm ducks can outrun a 33inch tyre anyday :lol: :lol:

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