trials project

[Heath]

Hey guys time to pick the brains of the triallers / comp trucks guys on here.

I have to make some decisions before I plunge into debt again (cant wait) and start my long dreamed of trials truck.

I have settled on something small and probably A class based on a413/samurai or a vitara.

Now for the questions:

Beam axle or IFS? The vitara is wider and coil sprung and EFI, but the samurai is leaf sprung and fairly bullet proof if careful with heaps of mods/tricks around.

Stick with the std tank or use a tote tank (outboard tank setup)?

Tyres 30 or 31 inch (I guess this will then affect gearing and require attn also or is it not a problem)

Wheels steel or ally and beadlock or not? if beadlocked, pneumatic or bolted?

Suspension. Lifted or soft?

My intention is to a-frame this little beast everywhere. Is that wise or asking for trouble? Is there another option without the cost of a trailer?

Auto or manual? Auto means I can left foot brake and in the right gear without worrying, but dont see too many auto samurai's.

That will do for now I guess. I will throw more up as I think of them.

Cheers for the help.

Heath

[spanky]

go with the 413 , vitara might go better and be more stable but standard suspension just eats front diffs and you will get sick o f replacing them,current a class leader from our club runs a 413 with a 20 valve 4age on 31 simex tyres, simple but effective. i find A class has to many rules so i am building c class instead for probaly not alot more money.scudo chassis sr20 fwd turned round hilux axles and no panels just cage.i will also use mine as a club truck so dont want standard get a copy of the rules first and go from there.
vaughan

[86-surf]

ive got a sr20det 4wd witch is same as the front wheel drive but with a 4wd box witch is stuffed.
But the motor is in peices atm was going to use it for my datsun 120y project but you cant get a rwd box for it unles you get a custom made one. all the parts are there if you wanna buy it:D. and the lume aswell.

[Rotazuk]

I have not trailed so not speaking from exp but ....

If you are going to stay A class , then a samurai will be hard to beat . There are not many mods you can do to them , engine gearbox swap , max 31's etc . In this case a good 1600 engine ( vit or 4age ) and 31's should see you right with good driving , ie no major landings on the gas . Light , easy to tow . I would recomend a trailer tho be a bugger to break it on the job and not be able to flat to it home , also would wear the tyres out quickly .

If you may move up a class ( E class I think ) oneday then get a vitara . Run in A class until you have a feel for it and busted a couple of front diffs then put toys under it and coil the front end . You are allowed to do change front susp fit fiddle brakes one end in E class . The brakes gives you navi something to do , the vit is already coiled in teh rear and is not too bad so once coiled the front . The vit has a slightly longer wheel base than a 413 and is wider of course . the w/base is a good thing , not too long to stuff up tight cornering etc .This setup would be the go , keeps you out of C class with the anything goes boys so you can still be competitive etc .

just my thoughts .

On springs , longer and softer , height is not something aimed for in a trials truck .
Gas tank , some sort of tote tank , no point in having it under the chassis when you are allowed to move it .
Go 31's , the gearing between 30's and 31's is bugger all . i would get a reduction t/case . So much of the trials is creaping around things ( manditory if you are manual ) . Go auto if you can , its not worth trying to find an auto 413 ( they do exist in imports $$$$ ) You would have to re engine a 413 anyway so get something with an auto .

Steel wheels , down the track go bolted beadlocks .

Cheers
Chris

[skid]

get a copy of the rules and go sit in the toilet for a long time and read it and re-read it over and over again.

there are a lot of rules regarding the standard classes and what you can and can't do.

whereabouts are you, coz there are a couple of trucks builders you can speak to, or get out to a round of the Nationals and speak to those guys who are in A Class.

you can find the rules here.......

http://www.nzfwda.org.nz/competition.html

or get hold of Dan ( Dr_PC ) on here and plug his brains for info. He ran a suzuki jimny in A Class for several years before he broke it too much and stepped up to E Class.

some of the things you mentioned you would like to do, I know for a fact are illegal in that class.

So make sure you do your homework first and read the thread that is current on here about the same thing

Cheers

SKID

[meatc]

ive got a sr20det 4wd witch is same as the front wheel drive but with a 4wd box witch is stuffed.
But the motor is in peices atm was going to use it for my datsun 120y project but you cant get a rwd box for it unles you get a custom made one. all the parts are there if you wanna buy it:D. and the lume aswell.

Off topic for a sec
The late s13, s14 and s15 silva/200sx are RWD and are sr20DE or DET powered. Same manual box for both and slightly different auto (torque convertor etc) The autos run a seperate ecu so the fwd engine computer should be fine.

back on topic.
I agree with get a copy of the rules. They are comprehensive. I was sort of aiming at a trails vehicle then decided with the young family I wasnt going to get to travel to do the series so have flagged the rules and am building what i want for a club truck. It all came down to $$$ to build vs would I really compete. Read the rules and decide where to go from there.

[Heath]

get a copy of the rules and go sit in the toilet for a long time and read it and re-read it over and over again.

there are a lot of rules regarding the standard classes and what you can and can't do.
some of the things you mentioned you would like to do, I know for a fact are illegal in that class.

So make sure you do your homework first and read the thread that is current on here about the same thing

Cheers

SKID

Cheers Skid

I am in Auckland.

I will track down a rule book (the link just says "Coming Soon - an overview of basic scoring and rules that the NZFWDA Competitive Trials are run by, check back soon!" and give the email address of a guy in Napier so I will give him a bell). At this stage I am just after advice on the bare vehicle and ideal drive train I guess more than anything so I can make a start and buy the most ideal platform to build on. I competed with (or is that against) Rex and Dan a few years back in an SJ 413 during the Laurie Sanson series and did a few of our club trials (did okay and got hooked but $$$ was the prob). I have noticed the low stance of the vehicles and wondered if that was because of old springs or a special replacement that was softer but I realise now that the springs on A class must be factory.

Heath

[skid]

was that my link I posted ???

it should have taken you to the comp part of the NZ 4WD Association site.

http://www.nzfwda.org.nz

otherwise check out......

http://www.4x4trials.co.nz

SKID

[Heath]

the ratio's in the diffs. Are they supposed to be as from the factory or can you mix them up as long as they are suzi ones? Havent got the book of rules yet (will order next week) but have my eye on a vehicle and dont want to buy something I will have to change before competeing (no point in wasting fuel money on bits). Same with the axles, can they be swapped for suzi ones?

Cheers.

Heath

[Rotazuk]

A Class , the diff internals may be modified .
this is from memory and not at home to check thou .

[Heath]

Anyone seen the vehicle Mudbits on trade me is selling in action during last years trials?

This is the reason for my barage of questions as I am considering just buying something that is done and drive it. So I needed quick answers to some questions I had before I make the final decision. Will unfortunately miss all the fab work but wont have time this year with University studies (extramural) and was curious as to what people thought of the truck and how it worked.

Auction number is 135747453

Now no-one beat me to it you hear! Though long and hard about putting it up here for answers but better safe than sorry and if someone else nabs it before me so be it.

[skid]

I would really do your homework on this one.

I'm sure that when he first listed it, he was saying it had a lift, which is not allowed in A Class.

If you are local to him then have a good look or see if someone on ORE can go look for you.

It pays to make sure you're getting the right thing before you try to compete and find its not compliant for the class or something.

SKID

[Heath]

Thanks Skid.

He has another samurai in bits (well chassis, cut down body and drive train with 2000 vitara 1.6 engine in it that is raised so it may be that one.

He said he competed in it in A class but I thought I would ask if anyone saw him or the vehicle.

I guess the beauty of using the oem springs is there are tonnes out there that have been removed from trucks so lifts can be performed (probably junked though), so replacements shouldnt be too hard to find.

[De-Ranged]

Just a not Heath, after getting a copy of the rule book and reading it and then talking to people... be very wary of pushing it to the letter as there are a few inconsistancies

A case in piont is
Section R) Springs
Production modified vehicles may fit shackle stops and overset springs may be used provided they conform to the original design
Now what I've been told that means and what I thought I could get away with is to different things.... what it actually means and may apply to the zuk your looking at is you can stretch your OME springs for lift
Another issue is the gards

As for his cost @ $10000 .... the reason that surprises me is I'm still on budget for mine @ $1000 a bit of a difference, but I am doing all the work myself so this is just parts and materials cost but still.....

Cheers Reece, De-Ranged Engineering
027 541 8794

[spanky]

had a look at this when i picked up my last vitara, it is a well presented truck but for a std sammy with a vitara motor it is well over priced, $5000 would be more realistic,just my 2 cents, i like deranged budget ,not counting tyres my c class will cost me about 3k including hyd steering.
vaughan

[Heath]

Yeah that's what I am thinking.

Maybe just get a vitara, strip it, cut it and flog it. I hoped to be off racing in under $5000, maybe a little extra for fluffy dice etc but that was my budget (Was thinking of a trailer also for a little extra).

Maybe I need to just keep more of an eye open and grab the next bargain on here.

I figure for A class it will be a learning experience and then ojce it is beaten beyond recognition I will mod it to C class or is that E class. Dont know yet as I still have to get the damn book.

Heath

[Heath]

A big thanks to DR_PC for letting me bend his ear for a while last night. Has more or less concreted in to my mind what I want to do.

Have decided that buying a finished truck although nice isnt for me. I want to do the Fab work, cut the roof, guards, etc and get to intimately know the ins and outs of my next project. Ya cant fix em if you didnt build them (or at least have it in bits looking at how they work.

So I am on the lookout for a 1600 (or 2lt 4 cyl) vitara for bugger all. Body in good (no or little rust) condition, drive train and engine in good condition but if it is dented or rolled I dont care as the exterior (and interior) will be stripped and cut until it resembles a trials vehicle.

Thanks again Dan, and to all you guys who gave me "helpful advice".

So I guess a build thread is in the making when I get started. Cant wait... (the wife, well I dont think shares my enthusiasm)

Watch this space.

Heath

[LOLYF]

Its about time Heath
I take it you will be rejoining the club then?

[Heath]

Yep.

Got all dressed and ready to go last night, drove down there and no-one was there. Got home rang Kerry D and he told me that the mtg was last week. I need a calendar. Never mind, we'll call it a practice run. How's parking at the scout hall? Still tight?

[LOLYF]

Damn tight, ended up parking at the music shop last week. mind you i was running a little late after picking up max!

[lilpigzuk]

Hi Heath

Good too see your getting back into it. For a cheap vitara, bit more work involved, but try the auction places, stolen and recovered/fire damaged/rolled are a hell of a lot cheap than paying top dollar through trademe.

Good Luck!

[Heath]

Hex Rex,

Yeah I know a rod for my back but my old bones feel like coil sprung comfort not the old buggy leaves. Of course if the right wide track samurai at the right price comes up...well... you never know.

I am looking at roll overs etc as you say they are cheap and all I need is a straight chassis a good drive train and thats about it really all the rest is cut off or bash straight with a BFH.

Heath

[icekayak]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Suzuki/auction-136242672.htm
It Would be unique, all vitara running gear etc
Could sell off the lights, glass, roodracks, mirrors etc and should get a few hundred back...
And is local too

it could soon look like this with a SAS:

[Heath]

I had looked at that one and thought about it for a while but decided that parts might be hard to get. If it was all vitara stuff then great but can I fit vitara stuff to an x90 and still compete in A class?

Food for though though. How would I fit a roll cage in that? Cant cut the roof off as they never came out in soft top - or did they?

Heath

[lilpigzuk]

I had looked at that one and thought about it for a while but decided that parts might be hard to get. If it was all vitara stuff then great but can I fit vitara stuff to an x90 and still compete in A class?

Food for though though. How would I fit a roll cage in that? Cant cut the roof off as they never came out in soft top - or did they?

Heath

is all vitara running gear, problem being that the wheel arches are tiny. They built one in aussie and it needed huge body and suspension lift to clear 31s

[Heath]

No good for me, then cant do those in A. Maybe I'll keep looking, although as a winch truck it could be interesting. even if just for a laugh. Paint it like a roller skate and your done.

[icekayak]

not quite a rollerskate...

[Heath]

If I drove one of those painted like that I would have to kick my own ass. Now a "smart car" on a 413 chassis would be cool...

Heres a wanganui based roller skate. Not bad (half way down page).

http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content?P=90e9 ... ic=44150.0

[spanky]

we just got a de reg 2dr 16v efi scudo in at the yard , i will see what they want for it and pm you probaly not till mon or tues though.
vaughan

[Heath]

Cool I will await your ...um... call.

Heath