Compact 4x4's , Opinions and info wanted.

[prespec]

G'day! I am looking to buy a second 4x4 to use for trips and general running around as my LWB Pajero is usually loaded for work with a ton of tools.

I am taking out a loan and can afford to spend somewhere between 6-10k but 8 is really what I want to spend as other things need financing too.. But I want to get a good one.
Fuel economy is one of the main requirements as well as comfort, good on-road handling and reliability, as well as good off-road performance. The ability to fit a winch would be useful too and five doors would be good but not essential. I would prefer to stay with petrol as I can't be arsed with all the road tax argy-bargy.
Don't want much , do I ?!

I went away into some fairly rough country in the Naki with my nephew in his Mazda Levant ( Suzuki by any other name ) and it impressed the hell out of me. It went places towing a heavy trailer with 80/20 tyres that really surprised me and the compactness allows it to get in some tight spots. And it went nicely on the road too.
It must have Tardiss DNA as it's a lot roomier inside than it appears to be.

This is the sort of wagon I'm after but would like to know more about the opposition vehicles ...Rav4 , Honda CRV , Subaru Forrester ,whatever else.....whats good and whats not. For instance, is there any point in buying an automatic like the Hondas all seem to be, and whats the best off-roader out of all of them?........The most fuel efficient?.......The one that needs constant servicing and eats spare parts?........I don't want to get this wrong , but just don't know enough , so please let me know your picks , opinions, and what you wouldn't go near , and why.

What else have I missed that could be relevant? I will be making a decision largely on what I learn and will really appreciate your input. Some mileage figures for common 4x4's would be handy too if anyone has them.

Cheers, Dave Johnson.

[Heath]

G'day! I am looking to buy a second 4x4 to use for trips and general running around as my LWB Pajero is usually loaded for work with a ton of tools.

...Rav4 , Honda CRV , Subaru Forrester ,whatever else.....whats good and whats not.
Cheers, Dave Johnson.

The vehicles listed are not true 4wd's butmore all wheel drives as they lack a low box (yeah I know subaru have the low ratio thing but it is just a little lower like for hill starts etc)

The vitara, feroza, blizzard pajero junior are a few that come to mind. Small, light, comfy and with a little $$$ a giant killer in the making. There are of course the lower spec lada's and samurais that are also a possibility also.

Heath

[TJ]

G'day! I am looking to buy a second 4x4 to use for trips and general running around as my LWB Pajero is usually loaded for work with a ton of tools.

...Rav4 , Honda CRV , Subaru Forrester ,whatever else.....whats good and whats not.
Cheers, Dave Johnson.

The vehicles listed are not true 4wd's butmore all wheel drives as they lack a low box (yeah I know subaru have the low ratio thing but it is just a little lower like for hill starts etc)

The vitara, feroza, blizzard pajero junior are a few that come to mind. Small, light, comfy and with a little $$$ a giant killer in the making. There are of course the lower spec lada's and samurais that are also a possibility also.

Heath

A lot of the NZ new Honda CRVs were manual shift as well, its just the Jap imports which are mostly automatics. These are good little "on-road" tourers. As Heath said, all of these are mainly all wheel drives.

I would say try a V6 Suzuki Vitara for a fit. I don't have one, but they are more capable than a lot of similar sized vehicels. I am sure someone from the Zuk zone will chip in soon with more specifics of what to look for in them.

[rangimotors]

the swb pajero's seem to get good feed back, good on road and some say they have a much better independent set up than the surf's or terrano's. If you wanted petrol they might be a bit thirsty though and I don't hear great things about those v6 engines. A body lift a set of 33 mt/r's or something and I think you would have a pretty good truck that still went well on road. I think the jtop one's have some sort of factory lockers (someone with much more knowledge can let you no)

[prespec]

Thanks for the replies so far chaps. I have actually owned 2 Nivas and they really are not that flash on-road as well as having 1950's technology. They go well in the sticks but getting there is a mission....I drove one non stop from Dunedin to North apart from the ferry crossing......my ears were ringing and my fillings damn near rattled out of my teeth...never again!
I thought about the SWB Pajero too, but the petrol v6 is going to be hungry and there is no way I would go near the diesel.

I really want to get later engine / driveline technology and all the advantages that come with it and 2 litre is the upper limit for me.
The wagon need not be a total bush-buster just as long as it will get me along unformed tracks and moderately rough terrain. The main use will be as a runabout and for the odd long trip.
Some of the Honda's look like real Nana's wagons but if they're cheap to run.....Hmmm ... Uh, maybe not!

Suzuki Vitara 2L V6 is still looking good.

[rangimotors]

yea the vitara sounds a good option, can i ask why you wouldn't go near the turbo diesel engines? i have only owned the toyota option (3.0 t/d) and i loved it.. but each to his own everyones needs and wants are different

[msv]

.

[NJV6]

My opinion....

I'd be looking at something like what Heath wrote - a Vitara, Paj io etc, something with a low box. My everyday vehicle is a V6 Ford Escape and it has some stooooopid on demand 4WD (thankfulyl can be locked manually) and if you are wanting to get off the main roads as it sounds like you do then don't bother with a single range vehicle. It is what limits the vehicles majorily and I doubt you'll pay any more for a vehicle with one.

Escapes are great on road, ride nicely but with the 3.0 economy isn't marvellous, a trip will see 10l/100km but generally it is around 12.5. To put that in perspective it worse overall than the Bounty 2.5 Tdi I had and it is not a heck of a lot better than my 3.5 Paj (ave about 14 - only used off road and getting to and from trips)

[al889]

Hi

I have a Vitara v6 and while it is fun to drive the h20a motor does have a problem with the timing chain tensioner. do some research before you choose that motor. I remember when I bought it I had a chance to get a Mazda levente which had the j20a four pot motor and now I wish I had got it instead. with an open exhaust the h20a pulls quite good and I wanted a v6 but the fact that the timing chain dies every 80thou k's kind of guts me. it sounds like a diesel at idle and I guess it will give up at some point but at $2500 to replace the tensioner(quote from suzuki) I might just wait and plan a repower, cause other than the engine fault it's a good truck.

Al

[prespec]

[quote="rangimotors"]yea the vitara sounds a good option, can i ask why you wouldn't go near the turbo diesel engines? i have only owned the toyota option (3.0 t/d) and i loved it.. but each to his own everyones needs and wants are different[/quote )

Rangimotors , I really don't want to go the diesel way.....life is complicated enough without paying another tax, and despite the price of diesel fuel , I'm not convinced they are cheaper to run when maintenance is factored in.
Nissan seems to get their diesel engines right , and maybe Toyota, but I generally don't hear good things about any of the others.

So , what about the Daihatsus chaps? Are any of these worth looking at or are they just also-rans?
The name is enough to make me wonder.....and I have never heard anyone say " I just can't wait to get my new Daihatsu"
But there may be a good wagon lurking behind that awkward name.

[lneil]

I run a 1.6 Escudo and it's great fun at modest cost. The very best choice is to try to get your hands on a 2.0L four-cylinder Suzuki, but they are as rare as hen's teeth, and only came out at the very end of that early-shape model. Failing that, a 1600 is still a great engine in the smaller trucks, and with a bit of work and a set of extractors you'd be suprised where it will take you.

Earlier comments about the V6 are correct. They have a tendency to get noisy in the timing gear and while they may go 200,000kms without a problem, if they do go, it's about $2,000

Vitara/Escudo parts are really accessible, though not always the cheapest, and the trucks are simple to work on.

[prespec]

Thats a neat looking truck Ineil and pretty close to the sort of thing I'm after. A modern 1.6 has serious nuts compared to earlier motors and that's what I was referring to when I said I was after modern technology.....later than 1980's anyway.
I shall keep in mind what everyone says about the V6 and would only buy one with low k's , which I am aiming for with anything I buy.....depending on the dough.
A four cylinder wagon is really what I had in mind anyway......I'm not hell bent on the V6 but they just seem to be available.

I have seen a few Mini-Pajeros with a 1.1l and would like to hear from anyone who can tell me about them. I would quite like one of those Pajero IO 's with the 1.8 , but they are around 12k. Might bite the bullet and spend the dough,but cant help thinking a mid 90's wagon with 70,000-100,000 k's would cost half that and 6k buys a lot of gas.


I really appreciate the replies and am now starting to get a pretty good idea about whats what.

[KiwiBacon]

You're not going to get economy with a petrol. The extra maintenance on a diesel is a myth. If you don't think the economics stack up, then think why virtually every commmercial vehicle in the world is diesel, even in countries where diesel is dearer than petrol.

IMO your best bet is something like a SWB Isuzu Bighorn or Mu with the 2.8. Not exactly the small vehicle you're looking for but reliable, economical and offroad ability you won't find in the soft-roaders. I can understand running the other way from the mitsubishi diesels and the toyotas in that price range aren't flash either.
Throw 5 doors into the mix and you're looking at full-size vehicles again.
Road tax is simple, buy 10,000km for a bit less than $300, do it again when you have to. It's a lame excuse to avoid diesel. The tax in petrol is rolled in, it's still there and probably more.

[prespec]

If I was going to go diesel it would probably be a Nissan. I guess when you divde it, the road tax is a pittance.
But I have heard a few horror stories about when it all goes wrong and I simply dont know a damn thig about diesels.

A couple of the lads have Patrols , the non-turbo versions and swear by them , and I know they cost bugger all to run in spite of their size.

[dazza85]

I drive an Isuzu Bighorn and its a great little truck, good fuel economy and a very comfortable ride, If and when I upgrade I will be looking at a MU first and comparing it to the others around. I belive that there is a few people on here have them.

[TJ]

You're not going to get economy with a petrol. The extra maintenance on a diesel is a myth. If you don't think the economics stack up, then think why virtually every commmercial vehicle in the world is diesel, even in countries where diesel is dearer than petrol.

But he is not looking at buying a commercial vehicle, is he? Economies of diesel in a small engine application are debatable at best (particularly in stop and go city driving). He wants a petrol, let him have a petrol.

[Weasel]

Ive had Bighorn 2.8 TDi and it was alright, economy wasnt as good as had hoped but was fine, was great solid truck and had no issues despite fair amount of abuse, build quality was good. Not tooooooo bad offroad but front IFS was VERY inflexible despite few mods, nice highway cruising engine though.

Now got 4 door Vitara with lift, muddies and few other bits for easier trips and 2 door Vitara with lift and muddies as well for rougher trips. Both 1600's. Very capable offroad and still very nice to drive onroad, cheap as nuts to run too.

I believe the G16a 1600 engine is around 75Kw while the J20 2L/4 cyl engine is 101Kw and the H20 2L V6 is only 107Kw, so Im not sure why you would put up with chain tensioner going every 80K or so as people report them doing for 6Kw! J20's can be pricy though Im told because they're rarer...havent priced em up myself but would plan on putting one in 2dr if I blow the 1600...

Vitara 1600 $Buy price...up to you
Tyres and wheels $1200ish
Towhooks $40ish
45mm lift springs and shocks pkg $1100ish
=not bad offroader!

Mine get around 400km per tank on muddies and 550km per tank on roadies.

[MAT]

The suzuki is a good small 4x4 option, i had a 1.6 vitara 3 door which was great offroad and now have a V6 h20a 5 door ( needed more family room) which has less ground clearence but is a lot nicer to drive and has a little bit more power . the v6 seems to be pretty good on gas not too different from my 1.6 ( mine is a manual ). Its no way as good as a swb zuk offroad but with a set of decent tyres they can go places. and you can always lift them.

I have done the cam chain tensioner in mine (about $400 in bits i think and its a bit of a strip down to do) . These engines like good oil maintanence and need good oil like 5w30 (the tensioners stuff up when thick oil is used - so im told). suzuki told me some engines with a bit of a rattle can be sorted by a oil flush to clean tensioners and good oil changes. It aslo can be normal to rattle for the first few seconds from cold start on the suzuki v6. The j20a is suposed to be good but not so many for sale and seem to hold a higher price.

The suzuki is awesome if you dont need a big diesel 4x4, i find mine a good size at the moment might have to go to a bigger 4x4 when family grows .

Happy hunting

[NJV6]

He wants a petrol, let him have a petrol.

x eleventy


And sigh - more Mitsi petrol & diesel bashing, I wonder, if they were that bad, why are there so many on the roads with lots of km on them still? Think of all the small capacity diesels of the era and tell me they are better.....

[lneil]

Pause to draw in BIG breath......

Without wanting to offend anyone who owns one, but with regard to a question from someone who may be considering buying one: Almost all modern vehicles and engines are superb quality and reliable as all hell.

Speaking as someone who works at a vehicle dealership however, there are some perticular engines with an apparently justified poor reputation.

The one I come across most often is the Mitsi 2.5 Turbo-diesel. In the last five years I have had to try to trade probably about twenty pajeros with this motor, and all but one of them had very serious issues. The whole industry seems to regard them as a hand-grenade with the pin pulled. You know they are about to blow up, you're just not sure quite how long the fuse delay is. Some of them have done serious kms, granted, but those ones invariably have massive amounts of blow-by from bad wear and the wholesalers simply refuse to touch them, as the cost to rectify them when they go bang is far more than they can ever make selling them. The Toyota 2.4's have a reputation only slightly less bad, but I have not personally come across nearly so many in poor condition, although I do know a couple of friends who have blown a couple of them.

I'm trying to be totally unbiased, what I've said is based purely on my own experiences since working here.

I agree with an earlier post, that the key to almost any vehicle is regular servicing with high-quality lubricants. Skimping in this area always comes back to bite you in the bum with more expensive repairs down the track.

I've run a diesel Terrano a few years ago and yes, its more economical than a petrol Terrano (But then, so's a space-shuttle launch) but my daughter's 'Zuk would beat it hands down. Don't forget, fuel burn is only a small part of the equation when it comes to running a vehicle. I personally think it's far more important to focus on buying what does the job you want it to do, and that you'll enjoy driving. If you have to pay a small premium in gas then so be it.

As the saying goes: "We're here for a good time, not a long time, and you're a long time dead!"

[KiwiBacon]

If I was going to go diesel it would probably be a Nissan. I guess when you divde it, the road tax is a pittance.
But I have heard a few horror stories about when it all goes wrong and I simply dont know a damn thig about diesels.

A couple of the lads have Patrols , the non-turbo versions and swear by them , and I know they cost bugger all to run in spite of their size.

Diesels are quite simply and very reliable. If they can keep getting air and fuel they'll normally keep going.
Patrols are certainly rugged, but I wouldn't call them compact. The terrano's are good apart from the rust and the gearboxes.

Personally I'm looking for a Mu as a compact 4wd work truck.

[IcedJohnno]

Look at a 93 to late 95 Prado. These ones are not powered by the 2.4.
3 litre turbo diesel 1kz-te, beam front axle and not too large.
Will post up some fuel economy figures later, have just been collecting them including an errr rather quick trip or two recently as well as one that was more of an economy trip.
They are no slug, are reliable if kept cool and you don’t lug the engine or thrash them like I do. Yes I have replaced the head.
They are not bad off-road and prove competent with a couple of small mods, something by your usage you would probably not need.
Prices range from 5k to about 10.

[surf_tomo]

I had a 2.4 turbo surf (diesel) and found it expensive to run. With a load on, or trallier fuel economy was average as you were flogging the shit out of it all day long. In my mind keeping a diesel on the road costs more than a petrol. Sure you get more km's per litre of diesel than petrol, and the compression ratio is better for hill decents, but thats the good news. I am looking for a smaller petrol truck - probably a vitara. Having had one in the family a few years back I know what they are like and would recomend them. My mate has a vitara and it ran rings around my surf and my other mates terrano on our last 4x4 trip.

just my opinion, cheers.

[KiwiBacon]

You're not going to get economy with a petrol. The extra maintenance on a diesel is a myth. If you don't think the economics stack up, then think why virtually every commmercial vehicle in the world is diesel, even in countries where diesel is dearer than petrol.

But he is not looking at buying a commercial vehicle, is he? Economies of diesel in a small engine application are debatable at best (particularly in stop and go city driving). He wants a petrol, let him have a petrol.

The economy benefits of a diesel are greatest in city stop/go driving. Which coincidently is a duty cycle not far removed from offroading.
Diesel rangerover around town = 8 km/l.
Petrol rangerover around town = 4km/l.
Similar story for the people I know driving landcruisers and pajeros.

If he wants petrol then he'll buy a petrol. But economy was mentioned as an important factor and that doesn't fit with petrol vehicles.
You can debate that petrols are more economical as much as you'll like. But continually losing will get old pretty quick.

[TJ]

You're not going to get economy with a petrol. The extra maintenance on a diesel is a myth. If you don't think the economics stack up, then think why virtually every commmercial vehicle in the world is diesel, even in countries where diesel is dearer than petrol.

But he is not looking at buying a commercial vehicle, is he? Economies of diesel in a small engine application are debatable at best (particularly in stop and go city driving). He wants a petrol, let him have a petrol.

The economy benefits of a diesel are greatest in city stop/go driving. Which coincidently is a duty cycle not far removed from offroading.
Diesel rangerover around town = 8 km/l.
Petrol rangerover around town = 4km/l.
Similar story for the people I know driving landcruisers and pajeros.

If he wants petrol then he'll buy a petrol. But economy was mentioned as an important factor and that doesn't fit with petrol vehicles.
You can debate that petrols are more economical as much as you'll like. But continually losing will get old pretty quick.

Sure, with no "scientific" data or "independent" source to back your claim, I'll believe you

Mate, when you are ready to compare apples with apples, we can have an unbiased discussion but your arguements above don't stake up. You can't compare pure fuel consumption and say look diesels are more economical, there is much more involved in working out the economies of owning and running a vehicles over an extended period of time. Have a read of this article which takes the logic of measuring environmental impact, and what comes at the top of the list

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 23233.html

And I agree with the last sentence, I bought what I drive because of what I do with it (take it off road).

You are biased towards diesels, fine. I am not, and never will be in a passenger car/SUV application. If you talk about locomotives or ships, sure diesels have a place and application. Although a lot of the newer cruise ships and mega container ships are moving towards gas turbine engines (and yes I know the difference between diesel, kerosene and jet fuel).

[KiwiBacon]

Sure, with no "scientific" data or "independent" source to back your claim, I'll believe you

Which bit don't you believe and which apples would you like to compare. IMO the example of petrol vs diesel in the same vehicle is as good as it gets.

Mate, when you are ready to compare apples with apples, we can have an unbiased discussion but your arguements above don't stake up. You can't compare pure fuel consumption and say look diesels are more economical, there is much more involved in working out the economies of owning and running a vehicles over an extended period of time. Have a read of this article which takes the logic of measuring environmental impact, and what comes at the top of the list

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 23233.html

The only reason the jeeps get a high score is because the plant making them is prehistoric.

I look forward to your reasons why a diesel is not an economic choice. I'm sure you're well aware that a gas-turbine has nothing in common with a spark ignition petrol engine.

[NJV6]

Guys - this isn't getting anywhere.

Some people will drive Diesel, some Petrol.

Its like the Holden vs Ford, Toyota vs Nissan, Auto vs Manual, Weetbix vs Cornflakes.

Agree to disagree........

[86-surf]

Thats how life goes:D

[KiwiBacon]

Agree to disagree........

What sort of namby, pamby rubbish is that. Would you say that to two people arguing in a pub?

A discussion on the economics of diesel vs petrol is nothing like holden/ford or toyota/nissan.

[TJ]

Agree to disagree........

What sort of namby, pamby rubbish is that. Would you say that to two people arguing in a pub?

A discussion on the economics of diesel vs petrol is nothing like holden/ford or toyota/nissan.

I was not arguing and have no intention to argue, I was presenting my view point and you presenting yours. As far as I am concerned, this is my last post on this topic. May be one day we can sit down around a camp fire and discuss these things at length.

Enjoy the long summer days and have fun over the long weekend.