PTO Winch or Electric...?

Summit033 · Post by **Summit033** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:15 am

I am looking at buying a SWB Safari, but I want to know the importance of PTO vs Electric winches, i.e. Is it better to go for a less favourable truck because it has a PTO winch, or is it better to go for a more desirable truck and put an Electric winch on it....?

By less or more desirable truck I mean say one with lower K's, is straighter, better condition, better price etc.

I imagine I will spend a good wad of cash on mods after buying the truck in the years to come, so I want to get the base of the truck right, as apposed to throwing money at a dog..!

Any thoughts, help, advise greatly appreciated. :wink:

mikeey1 · Post by **mikeey1** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:25 am

I can't really base my reply on knowledge, merely observation. I've only just purchased my first winch!

If you want out right balls to the wall grunt then the PTO is the answer.
So long as you don't keep throwing the sheer pin! Aye Dave :lol:

Both nissan and the mighty Toyota do PTO's...

Ponder this...
If your engine dies your pto is useless, if your electrics fail your electric winch is useless.

I've got an electric one, why becasuse I couldn't get a hold of all the stuff to make up and fit operational a PTO one. unless someone wants to do a deal with a warn winch?

padero · Post by **padero** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:04 am

i've got a superwinch EP9i which i had on my pajero, i think that an electric winch is the way to go.. because it is very very hard to lose your electric's unless your battery goes dead and you wont be going anywhere anyway so your srewed both ways.. but for the likey hood of that happening i went electric if your going to put it on a safari then somthing like 9000lbs is the minuim i would put on it, i know of people with 8k's on and they have no trouble but to be on the safe side go 9000 + .

if you find 2 swb safari's can you let me know as i am looking for one too

hosehustler · Post by **hosehustler** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:36 am

padero wrote:if you find 2 swb safari's can you let me know as i am looking for one too

:scratch:

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:45 pm

I ran an electric on my GQ, and now run a PTO.
I got rid of mine because I I would have needed to upgrade my batteries, and pulling my truck from sticky mud the electric would overheat.

Both have pros/cons, such as electric can overheat, have to watch water/mud ingression, need good batteries, but no shear pin problems, no approach angle probs, and you can winch/drive.

I have heard the arguement that if your engine dies then a pto is no good, but realistically, how long will you be winching for before the batteries are dead on an electric without the engine running?

For ease of use, low maintanence, and price, I personally would stick with a pto.

wjw · Post by **wjw** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:20 pm

Getting back to the question in hand, depends on price. On Tradme the PTO bits seem to go for $300 - $500ish So look for a best truck you can find with the PTO plate on the gearbox and work it from there...

Just my 2c

padero · Post by **padero** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:40 pm

what you puzzeled about there tim ?? did u not know i was selling the pajero ? ya dont want to buy it do you ?? lol

Summit033 · Post by **Summit033** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:53 pm

OK, thanks for all of the input. So I gather then it is best to get a good truck first, then if it has a PTO winch great, if not an electric will suffice.

How / where do I find the 'PTO plate on the gearbox' when checking out trucks... :?:

Are any models of Safari better than others, any things to look out for, any things to avoid...

Thanks once again for the help....

hosehustler · Post by **hosehustler** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:36 am

PTO winches are certainly strong no doubting that :!:

Electric winches are simple and effective and can be mounted up as high as you dare and as close into the vehicle as you want

This is my set up, solenoid box mounted under the bonnet out of th mud, also I have a switch inside the vehicle for winch in/winch out so whole set up is really fast to use as well

I prefer this set up, I like it :!:

but its my choice, it all comes down to what you want to do yourself, or what's best for your needs :wink:

A little thought to ponder though,
a quality PTO set up from trademe, about $200-$400 (depending on your vehicle)
a quality electric winch on trademe, anywhere from $700-$1200, I guess the value of these things would suggest what most people prefer :!:

p.s, have a friend selling a genuine toyota winch with all fittings, remote ect, off a 80 series cruiser, never ever been used, if you're interested (or anyone else) PM me and i'll give you his contact details.

hosehustler · Post by **hosehustler** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:43 am

padero wrote:what you puzzeled about there tim ??

Safari :scratch: after the hard time you give Robbie, now you want to buy one :oops:

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:10 am

Most earlier GQ's had the output on the gearbox, but I don't recall ever seeing the 2.8t come with them, (you should stay away from these anyway).

If the gearbox is winch compatable, it will have a rectangular plate bolted to the passengers side of the gearbox (manual only of course).

For a Safari winch, complete with brackets etc you will be looking at $600-1200, depending on where you buy it. Mine was $750 via a wrecker.

Another thing to look at is if you are buying a Safari with a TD42, and looking to turbo at some stage,after 1992 they no longer had heavy duty pistons. While they can still be turboed, boost levels tend to be a little lower.

Summit033 · Post by **Summit033** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:21 pm

Dave, thanks for the advice. I see from your photo you have a Turbo safari.. Was this a factory one or did you bolt it on? And what is the fuel economy like in these trucks, with and without the turbo? Is the turbo worth it, disregarding cost, but from a extra power to vs extra fuel bills point of view. Thanks.

DieselBoy · Post by **DieselBoy** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:07 am

The 2.8's run a different gear box to the 4.2 safari/patrols and do not have facility for the PTO.

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:14 pm

Unfortunately mine is not turboed, but if I don't make the move to oz next year I will be putting one on.

Dave

tristanp · Post by **tristanp** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:46 pm

can someone explain the "no driving and winching" comment refering to the nissan pto, i do this all the time , and shear pin? is that where the 8.8HT M6 capscrew is ?
has anyone actually seen one grenade itself?

mikeey1 · Post by **mikeey1** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:57 am

no driving on winch, when your trying to reel your stuck nissan out of a bog hole if you've got a PTO you can't put your foot down and get yr wheels driving as well. If you had an electric winch you could assist by trying to drive out of it!
Shear pin, yep seen it. V sad. it is designed to take the load and break instead of the winch. pritty much a non event really,
V simular to a shear pin on your lawn mower fly wheel I think... I'll bet a dam site bigger though.

I would say the one I saw go (nissan)

it was a little weak because it didn't even look loaded up when it gave way. Both the owner and I looked at each other and thought WTF! Dave whom I'm sure will back this up would probably say he has now installed the correct one, instead of some mild steel or really soft alloy

Tough as PTO's are surpose to be!

GRUNT!
To get this much of it you either fit a PTO or spend lots of the folding stuff on an electric one! then lots of it again on a lrge battery to get more electrons so it then can give it more. Then you need to spend a bit more on yr portable power station to charge em back up with them electrons thingies again.
I've got one, no experience on it yet. not fitted

However....
I've spoken to someone who owns argueable one of the best nissan retrival devices in town (Tim), it's electric mmmmmm nice!
it draws so many amps one can nearly see the battery suck the sides of it in and down to nothing but a crushed up flat thing with two lead posts........
GRUNT! as clarkson would say it's got bucket loads of the stuff!

DieselBoy · Post by **DieselBoy** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:52 am

tristanp wrote:can someone explain the "no driving and winching" comment refering to the nissan pto, i do this all the time , and shear pin? is that where the 8.8HT M6 capscrew is ?
has anyone actually seen one grenade itself?

You can winch and drive. If you want your wheels to spin faster you select a higher gear. There is no need to have your wheels spinning flat out anyway, it just digs holes, wrecks the track and makes the winch surge as it takes up the slack in the cable risking damage to the winch.

All you need is you wheels quietly churning away in 1st or 2nd low as the winch does its thing.

The GQ PTO is rated at 15,000Lbs.

There are two shear pins, one behind the winch at the universal joint on the PTO shaft, and the other at the universal at the PTO end.
These pins are $21.00 each from Nissan.

They are critical, and should not be replaced with anything other than the correctly rated pins. Failure to do so may result in gear box damage, pto damage or the at the very least damage to the winch or a snapped cable.

One trick i have seen which could be usefull, is to replace the shear pin at the PTO end with something heavier than standard and retain the standard pin at the winch end.

The winch end being weaker will always break first and is far easier to replace when your burried up to the sills in mud than the pin at the PTO end :lol:

Fuel consumption.
LWB around 400 to 450k's on a long trip, 62L tank
SWB about the same in standard specs.

After sus lift (wind resistance increase), intake and exhaust modifications and other fuel system related tweaks, mine got as bad as 350k's if you were lucky on a long trip.
I have that sorted out now, and have done a record 524k's on a tank last weekend!!!!!!!!!

DieselBoy · Post by **DieselBoy** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:07 am

Summit033 wrote:Are any models of Safari better than others, any things to look out for, any things to avoid...

Thanks once again for the help....

Just quickly, things to look at:

Left hand engine and gear box mounts

Noisey tappets/valve gear (will need replacement rocker shaft 9 times out of 10)

Has it been used for heavy towing, ie boat or horse float

Clunks going over sharp bumps (body mounts)

Door hinges

Water pump (common problem)

Rusty rear window frames (they all do it)

Don't touch an Auto

Take it for a good spin in 4x4, check CV's & hubs etc

Also while in low range, have a good play and see if it starts to miss at 3,000 - 3,500 rpm. This is a very very common problem related to injector pump condition and the viscosity of the fuel we get these days in NZ.

Ignore the oil pressure indicator on the dash and go and get a pressure check, and leakdown check done.

Hope that gives you some where to start, if ya find one and have questions to ask, post up here!!!!

Cheers,
Pete.

MATT4U · Post by **MATT4U** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:00 am

my mate Craig often blows his PTO shear pins. and you can drive and winch if you need to but its not a good idea.

DieselBoy · Post by **DieselBoy** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:20 am

MATT4U wrote:my mate Craig often blows his PTO shear pins. .

If you commonly shear the shear pins you should be using a double pruchase instead of a single so it halves the load on the winch. Experience allows you to recognise such situations were a double purchase is necessary.
If you blow them often, your either a very slow learner, or your using the wrong shear pins :lol:

MATT4U wrote: and you can drive and winch if you need to but its not a good idea.

Don't hold out on us, please elaborate on why you think its not a good idea!!!!! :roll:

MATT4U · Post by **MATT4U** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:55 am

DieselBoy wrote:
MATT4U wrote: and you can drive and winch if you need to but its not a good idea.

Don't hold out on us, please elaborate on why you think its not a good idea!!!!!

Well that is second hand info, From what I gather its hard on your gear.

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:51 am

My understanding is when you are winching to let the winch do the work and not drive.

Reason being if you are driving then the winch could be shock loading each time the vehicle looses traction and slides backwards (same reason you dont hook up a snatch strap to the winch wire). Better to have a constant load also for line retrieval and winding on the drum, that way its all tightly wound with no soft spots for bird's nests in the cable.

Well thats my understanding of why not to drive, but I guess if you drive in comps' then you cant afford to wait around for a slow winch and probabbly service/ replace everything regularly anyway.

Heath

DieselBoy · Post by **DieselBoy** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:29 pm

Yes correct heath.

If you do it incorrectly you end up with shock loading going on.

Again its down to knowing the situation to use that technique in.

If you are winching up a greasy clay hill, yes select 1st and have your wheels churning.

If your stuck in bog of sorts, have you whels churning.

If your winching up a rocky hill leave it in neutral.

If your high centered in some ruts and the ground is very dry leave it in neutral.

Bear in mind, your engine is doing all of 1500rpm while winching, so in 1st low that creats bugger all wheel speed. Your tyres airen't gonna suddenly bite and launch you forwards over the cable. You just flick between neutral and 1st as you see fit reducing the load on the winch were you can.

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:38 pm

Most GQ's only run the one shear pin, as they come out of the factory with a steel bolt at the gearbox end, and the shear pin at the winch end.

I have heard from guys in oz who say never to winch/drive and not because of the risk of shock loading. Something to do with extra stress on the winch/gearbox as they are not being driven at the same speed and can bind up (or something along those lines :roll:

).

Not too bothered about driving at the same time anyway.

DieselBoy · Post by **DieselBoy** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:10 am

In my manual, the PTO winch has a shear pin at either end of the shaft.