08/09 trials Schedule ????

[Rotazuk]

Hi
I have heard a few rumors from various people now on three trials being run in the Sth Isl next year ( "edited out rude and unconstructive comment" ) and wondered if anyone has any hard and fast info on dates etc , dates for any would be good . Nothing showing on the web site that I can see .

Cheers
Chris

[skid]

yup you heard right

I have seen the dates but cannot remember them.

9 trials in all for the next season, I think your best 6 results will count, so you don't actually have to go down south if you don't want to.

sooner or later the dates will be up on the trials website, but I think the first is around Sep 6 in dunedin followed a week later by one in mid canterbury somewhere, the rest are a blur

SKID

theres also the rumour of another competition being run, but its invite only and being run by some tossers who want the TV coverage etc etc etc. rumoured to be a 6 trial series, maybe in the off season.

thats a hell of a lot of trials to be doing in a year

I hope eveyone has sponsors that are willing to put up lots of cash for their competitor to do all these.

[tpft]

theres also the rumour of another competition being run, but its invite only and being run by some tossers who want the TV coverage etc etc etc. rumoured to be a 6 trial series, maybe in the off season.

.

3 not 6

[skid]

theres also the rumour of another competition being run, but its invite only and being run by some tossers who want the TV coverage etc etc etc. rumoured to be a 6 trial series, maybe in the off season.

.

3 not 6

tell me more

[tpft]

3 clubs are hosting events to give the tv guys enuff footage for rest of year.
invite only.

[skid]

3 clubs are hosting events to give the tv guys enuff footage for rest of year.
invite only.
I think it came about because they don,t want tv guys at nationals any more.

now i,m pretty new too this and watching the whole suzuki extreme show is mostly what made me give it a go in first place
now that i have, i love it and wish i hadn,t waisted all that time and money on other motorsports over the years.
met a few guys at the laurie sanson, same kinda thing, so its got to be good for sport.

Now i know in another post someone moaned about them showing mainly roll overs and that, is that reason they don,t want it on tv any more???
or is ther other reasons? money?

theres a few other reasons, etc etc etc

lets just say that its in the best interest of the sport if the current film crew does not carry on

they already have a replacement bunch to film, so it will still be on the telly

[De-Ranged]

3 clubs are hosting events to give the tv guys enuff footage for rest of year.
invite only.
I think it came about because they don,t want tv guys at nationals any more.

now i,m pretty new too this and watching the whole suzuki extreme show is mostly what made me give it a go in first place
now that i have, i love it and wish i hadn,t waisted all that time and money on other motorsports over the years.
met a few guys at the laurie sanson, same kinda thing, so its got to be good for sport.

Now i know in another post someone moaned about them showing mainly roll overs and that, is that reason they don,t want it on tv any more???
or is ther other reasons? money?

theres a few other reasons, etc etc etc

lets just say that its in the best interest of the sport if the current film crew does not carry on

they already have a replacement bunch to film, so it will still be on the telly

Does that mean the trials coverage will be more coverage of the driving and less of the crashes , I've got a lass here who wanted to have a go competting but got scared off by the TV coverage took her out to the Nat finall's and she's now changed her mind, she wants to have a go ... I think the comment that cap'ed it all for me was when she turned to me and said.... "Ooow you don't have to roll the truck...."

Oh and the south island rounds theres also a Nelson round about a month after the CHCH round I might just take a holiday between dunners and CHCH its just not worth it to come back home

[tpft]

i know when i watch vids of varoius hazzards that i saw or drove in ,at the time i thought were pretty steep and a/hole puckering (for want of a better word) they look like a walk in the park on the screen. boring for anyone but me and my navi i guess

the other danger is if they tame down the coverage is it makes competitors look like a bunch of old ladies .

still my favorite 1/2 hr of tv.

[Flash2004]

I find the mention of sponsors interesting within the context of what's being said in here. Someone said "I hope the sponsors have a lot of money to pay all these extra costs of the extra events?".

It might be time for competitors to realise that sponsors invest money in them for a number of reasons. Primarily though, they hope that their company or organisation gains some recognition or mention where their clients can and will see it and be impressed. It saves a bit of tax as well.

With TV coverage a certainty, sponsors are more likely to agree to bigger demands from individual competitors because the likelihood of "being seen" by a much bigger audience is so much higher.

The initial 3 rounds of the invitation only series are guaranteed air time on TV3 and Sky sport.

For the whole of next year's national trial series television coverage is an unknown quantity. There are alternative people offering to film the series but I wonder who is going to front that considerable expense - quoted to me as around $100,000 to film and produce a DVD like the one we saw from Whangarei? I wonder if they have any meaningful contacts within the TV industry to whom they could sell their product?

Competitors' preferences aside, I think that a purposely "made for TV" series will appeal much more highly to TV programmers and bosses. What the general public want to see and what competitors and insiders want to see are actually and dramatically at opposite ends of the visual spectrum. No that different from ordinary motor racing where the driver and team want to win but average Joe Bloggs wants to see the cars smashed to pieces regularly.

TV programmers know nothing about trialling as a driver or co-driver but On the other hand, drivers and co drivers need to realise they know nothing about TV and how it works.

As competitors in the nationals you may be able to keep your minor sponsorship going - the kind your boss gives you for instance, or your signwriter or painter, but with the four or five major sponsors already showing their hands in support of the TV3 series, the major money has already been lost from the Nationals and i think you can kiss goodbye to any other real money opportunities from other sources as they discover what is happening.

From a club's perspective we used to struggle to get $100 per hazard in pre TV days. Most would only agree to pay that because of personal or business relationships with organisers. With TV we were easily able to get $500 per hazard with few questions asked. Now the TV's apparently gone we might wonder if its even worthwhile the trouble of organising and hosting a round from the club's financial perspective.

Consider this vision for the future.

Those who just want to have fun and enjoy their rivalry and friendship will continue to do that within the national trials format and they will find the relaxed environment within much better than it has been lately. They will find less pressure to spend heaps of cash to compete and it will be good for them. Anyone who is affiliated and has a competition licence can join in, regardless of experience. Clubs will continue to host rounds for them to do that, also for fun.

The TV series will work. The programme will become credible and attract a lot more financial support as it grows. Sponsors will enable competitors to buy better gear. (regardless of what anyone may say, no one turns down better gear) Those who want to be a part of this series will work hard within the national series to be noticed and invited to join. To get an invitation they will need to prove they can perform as well as compete. Their trucks will need to have a good look and sound and the crews will need to wear professional looking gear and look like a team. They will need to be aware the hazards are going to be a lot harder and higher and the "offs" will be bigger if they get it wrong. They should know that the more spectacularly they drive the more chance of getting on the TV screens. They should know they don't have to roll and crash to be spectacular but can always resort to that if nothing else works for them.

They should know they are going to become household names and are going to get fans who will want to know all about them and not all fans will be pretty young things. Sounds terrible to me and I bet Greg Murphy hates it too.

[moonhopper]

So what you are really saying is we are going to create an elitest competition for the special few who are selected, where its all about big money and how flah your truck looks. I have spent the last 7 months building a truck to compete in a good natured competition where its about getting out and having a good time with like minded people. i might as well pack up my tools and call it a day if its going to turn into a them and us sport.my rant over

[Flash2004]

So what you are really saying is we are going to create an elitest competition for the special few who are selected, where its all about big money and how flah your truck looks. I have spent the last 7 months building a truck to compete in a good natured competition where its about getting out and having a good time with like minded people. i might as well pack up my tools and call it a day if its going to turn into a them and us sport.my rant over

What I was writing in my post, was what i was really saying, no hidden meanings or messages. That for competitors who look for a good time, friendly rivalry and social interaction like you, nothing will change except it will probably get better.

TV have said that's not what their viewers want to see and if you want to provide what TV say viewers do want to see, and apparently you have the truck to do it, (ex Cowper?) there's a way to do it and be involved. For a "them and us" situation to exist, you have to want it and not be able to get it.

[tpft]

So what you are really saying is we are going to create an elitest competition for the special few who are selected, where its all about big money and how flah your truck looks.

isnt that just sport though?
just like the allblacks, they are the elite top of the sport and cop all the attention,sponorship etc doesn,t mean the rest of us can,t get there at normal level and kick the ball around.

sure thoose that are naturally competative can inspire and work hard to join the top ranks, rest of us can still continue too compete and have fun.
its the natural progression of things, how else was it going to turn out?

more money equals more land more rights as 4x4er and more cheaper old buggies to buy, dibs on Dans cowpers (in about 10 years)

[Heath]

I have to agree that it looks a little daunting but I dont want to compete for $$$ I want to do it for all the reasons Flash2004 said. Hey winning heaps of$$$ and having adoring fans would be great but not part of what I am looking for.

If this new series gets underway then the flow on for us 'amatures' should be good. Better hand me downs and maybe some affordable mods (with the big guys doing the R and D we get the benefits later).

I watch the offs and grimace at the $$$ that have just been thrown away but cant wait to be in the drivers seat hoping to learn from their mistakes but not afraid of the same outcome.

As an amature, basic wagon would be more acessible to the masses rather than a super mod that only those with money to burn can afford, but I still think that grass roots is where it is at.

I say bring it on, never know if the coverage is popular there may be another class added for tv veiwing.

Heath

(Just got to get me a bomb to drive now, TPFT I'll have Dans wagon when your'e finished with it)

[skid]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

you fellas wishing you had Dans truck

everytime he builds one he ends up selling it

in 10 years there will probably be 50 cowper trucks out there

he already has 3 competing and another 3 on order(I think)

join the queue or cough 10-15k for a frame and build one yourself

maybe if he build 50 then we will have a homologated vehicle for G Class

[Heath]

Theres an idea 'Cowper Class'.

[Flash2004]

Theres an idea 'Cowper Class'.

Dan already has the class doesn't he? And he sells the trucks for a living. I don't doubt the new owner of his last year's truck will enjoy it, possibly even beat the new one MGT? First coupla times anyway.

[tpft]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

you fellas wishing you had Dans truck

everytime he builds one he ends up selling it

in 10 years there will probably be 50 cowper trucks out there

he already has 3 competing and another 3 on order(I think)

join the queue or cough 10-15k for a frame and build one yourself

maybe if he build 50 then we will have a homologated vehicle for G Class

i can run over pegs and drive out of the course just as well with my current junka
90% driver 10% rig
in ten years thoose 70k turn key buggys be like 5-6 k

[Heath]

I must admit the idea of trashing a 70k vehicle would scare me more than trashing a junker.

[yorick]

lets just say that its in the best interest of the sport if the current film crew does not carry on

they already have a replacement bunch to film, so it will still be on the telly

Agreed, the present coverage is shit. Speaking as one that used to be involved in Television, coverage is about camera placement and good editing. The sport has not been served well with the present crew.

Example: It's easy to make V8s boring just put one camera on the pit straight and leave it there and really speaking it's just a bunch of guys going around in circles. But it's not boring, because the good crew goes after good shots with lots of good camera work and up to the minute plays.

The commentators were not the best, but not surprising they're not professionals and they suffered through bad editing. Any sport can be made exciting by good camera work, a good D.O.P. a good Director and good editing. The present guys came across as a bunch of enthusiastic dudes with a handy cam and a cheap video editing computer.

Yacht racing is another one that with good production values has become really watchable, and that's match racing for gods sake which is about as boring as it possible to get in sport, but they do have Pete Montgomery.

Great Pictures of guys throwing trucks at obstacles is still not enough though. The pegs need to be TV friendly, big and obvious scores on them.(Personally I think we should drop the Zero of the scoring and just use whole numbers so zero to ten rather than to 100 Single figures can be made more obvious) Marshalls with radio scoring connected to a central scoring setup so that the TV guys can display up to the minute progress and that gives much more immediacy to the on track interviews. For instance, if the interviewer can tell the Crew of a Wagon whereabouts on the leaderboard their last run put them then it makes that any reaction current. It also means as the trial progresses, they can focus on the leader battles. Building that drama takes good commentary, but good commentary needs good material and that comes from a good production crew.

What we have is actually a visually exciting sport on all sorts of levels. It has drama action, big air and fierce competition. Communicate that to the Audience and you don't need to show just rollovers, keep them for the credits. A days competition squeezed into an hour show, will be action packed and bloody good Television.... But not without a good production crew.

[De-Ranged]

I'll take your word for the camera work, you are right the commentators do come accross as keen amatures.... used to live with a radio anouncer a whole different way of talking
I really like the rest of the comments... thats some very good sugestions and a good piont, if they can make yaught racing entertaining 4wd trails should be a snap

[yorick]

I'll take your word for the camera work,

There are good examples: The Catseye Cam in the V8s, for instance, gets you right in the heat of it. The cars go round and round past the same spot. The footage doesn't tell you a lot, you can't see the numbers or what car it is, all you can really see is a blur of the greasy sideand the underside of a tyre, but it's real dramatic in the middle of a package. At Bathhurst say. I can't remember the details the Bathurst field but you'll see what I mean. The Cam sees a car for about .2 of a second. Say there are 40 cars in the field, that's 8 seconds per lap, 200 laps = about 27 minutes of not very informative but dramatic action out of an entire day. But it's a cheap rubbish cam, doesn't require an operator and gives you 27 minutes of cheap dramatic filler while you're doing some fast editing.

Of course that's better than what we would get obviously, but I tell you what, if we put a peg cam in the middle of a hazard, say right on the 40 point line, I reckon ours would be more dramatic.

There are other technical issues. You need a good knowledgeable DOP (Director of Photography) telling the Camera Operators what sort of shot he needs. You need well informed Camera operators who know where they need to be to get the best shots and you need a number of them and that's expensive because you need a big OB unit to pick up all the footage, a good Director to look after the Audience and a Producer to look after the Sponsors and Network.

There are checks and balances. Track racing's advantage is that everyone goes past a single spot many times so that allows fixed camera positions. But that's a lottery, the money shot is not necessarily going to happen in a nice convenient place. Sometimes that's an advantage because the audience knows that there is an element of luck in seeing the big crash so there is a WOW factor in getting the money shot.

For trials it's completely different, we are right in action all the time because we know exactly where the action is going to be. The downside is that it loses that WOW factor.

In TV immediacy costs a shit load of money, but there is payback. In terms of programming it's relatively cheap to make. A days work to get an hour of edited highlight package. In TV a 4 minute day (A days filming to get 4 minutes of screen time) is a luxury but not uncommon. At the other extreme a 22 min day is possible but the crew and facility that requires is huge and you almost never do that on location, so you can see by comparison this is low cost, but it has to be, because it will never pull prime time advertising dollars.

you are right the commentators do come accross as keen amatures.... used to live with a radio anouncer a whole different way of talking

Sometimes a commentator knowing the sport works against you because they make assumptions about what the audience "knows". Pete Montgomery knows Yachting but he's a journo so he thinks of his "readers" and won't let the tech guys get away with not informing the Audience. Of course they had people like Tom Schnackenburg and Peter Lester who were willing to take the time and also had the skill to make it all easy to understand (Pete Lester is a yachting Coach and teacher).

I really like the rest of the comments... thats some very good sugestions and a good piont, if they can make yaught racing entertaining 4wd trails should be a snap

The Trial guys need to have sat down with a good Production Company and pitch a package they will see as a viable seller (That will require having to teach them a little about the game) and if we can get a network on board even better. Add a name sponsor to the package and you're in business. Good TV isn't cheap however, it comes attached to a large OB (Outside Broadcast) or location crew. They make demands on the organisation that some find bloody annoying because there may be conflicting needs.

A couple of things that are immediately obvious to me if I was doing a trial as a TV friendly event,
1) a central gathering area where the wagons return to between hazards with an electronic score board. That equals a single spot to do interviews
and 2) 30 sec average hazard lengths.

Define what is spectacle and set the hazards to emphasise that spectacle so that the spectacle isn't defined just as rollovers.

Jeeeeeez that's long winded!

[tpft]

thats some good stuff yorick, i like the electronic score board thing, watching bike trials and rock crawling from the states
it faces the competitors off agnist each other like that.
statdium bike trials overseas are run like that to and get huge crowds

tv guys just there to do a job, organisers are responsible for making it more professional i guess.
u are totally right bring the competative element into coverage and u don,t need the constant rollovers etc

[Flash2004]

That might be long winded Yorick, but for those who take the time to read it, it is very refreshing to see, at last, some informed thinking and comment on the TV aspect of our sport.

You mention money, big costs, etc. quite a few times and the limited availablity of that commodity has always been the key to all this and probably even the discontent that's been shown.

Whether the current (now former) production crew would ever have made the grade is arguable and there's certainly been plenty of that. We need to remember that it was them who invested first and put their own small resources behind trying to get some coverage. Admittedly, they were advanced some money to cover initial costs but it would hardly have taken them into a profit zone and is now long gone anyway. I feel there was an obligation to them and I didn't think allowing other enthusiastic amateurs to film, confuse shots, release private DVD's prior to TV programming and thereby render their work valueless repays them in any way.

I must say that I had an open mind about the "other" involvement until I paid over the $36 odd and received one DVD that worked in a two DVD set and no replacement for it yet. The (disc 2) that did work showed some good footage but showed many of the same old lessons had yet to be learned. As you say, shot angles need to be carefully worked out in advance, especially if they are to show the real "ass puckering" aspects of the hazard as a driver or on course spectator might. I don't doubt every competitor and pit crew member would love it and find it enthralling, but Joe public would quickly fall asleep. Overall , the package was valueless in a commercial sense and that is what this is all about.

To do what you suggest in creating a quality product is going to cost money and lots of it and in my view it would have come - perhaps as early as next season - if the status quo had been allowed. Now though, we have a committee who have successfully demonstrated an unreliability to the TV industry and sponsors.

No one in their right mind is going to invest under these circumstances. Luckily the spin-off series on TV3 and Sky will keep the pot boiling until there is some restructuring and a genuine desire shown to allow investment in the sport without interference once the contracts are signed. Where's Bernie Ecclestone when you need him?

[yorick]

That might be long winded Yorick, but for those who take the time to read it, it is very refreshing to see, at last, some informed thinking and comment on the TV aspect of our sport.

You mention money, big costs, etc. quite a few times and the limited availablity of that commodity has always been the key to all this and probably even the discontent that's been shown.

An OB van and gear will set a company back well into seven figures. A full OB team to do the job properly will include, Director, DOP, probably 6 Camera operators, maybe 3 Sound operators with boom boys, at least one video editor (Two or three for live) a couple of AD's, a Grip or three, a Presenter and a couple of resident Xspurts and a very fit Producer. On top of that add additional hardware, roaming cameras, special Cams for on-truck and in-hazard views and the gear and the expertise AND the artistic skills don't come cheap.

Whether the current (now former) production crew would ever have made the grade is arguable and there's certainly been plenty of that. We need to remember that it was them who invested first and put their own small resources behind trying to get some coverage.

Agreed that they probably wouldn't, but that doesn't lessen the significance of their contribution. There were some editing and production decisions that made me cringe, but bloody good on them for giving it a shot with bugger all resources and getting it on National TV and bloody good on TV3 for taking the punt even if it was only a filler during the silly season. But the point is the first step was taken and you can take that and say "This has potential with decent backing".

Admittedly, they were advanced some money to cover initial costs but it would hardly have taken them into a profit zone and is now long gone anyway. I feel there was an obligation to them and I didn't think allowing other enthusiastic amateurs to film, confuse shots, release private DVD's prior to TV programming and thereby render their work valueless repays them in any way.

The problem is you're never going to stop that. All you can do is protect the "name" so if anyone sells a DVD with "NZFWDA Trials Series" or variations of that in the title or blurb, gets their arses nailed to the wall by a team of Carnivorous Lawyers so it never happens again. Also create a quality product so good that no-one will want the Gandpas Home movie shit.

[snip.....] Overall , the package was valueless in a commercial sense and that is what this is all about.

To do what you suggest in creating a quality product is going to cost money and lots of it and in my view it would have come - perhaps as early as next season - if the status quo had been allowed. Now though, we have a committee who have successfully demonstrated an unreliability to the TV industry and sponsors.

No one in their right mind is going to invest under these circumstances. Luckily the spin-off series on TV3 and Sky will keep the pot boiling until there is some restructuring and a genuine desire shown to allow investment in the sport without interference once the contracts are signed.

That's where a good producer comes in. They are there to keep the stakeholders happy, simple as that. He has to juggle, in this case, NZFWDA interests, The Network, the Sponsors and his own budget along with a spendthrift Director. Often those interests conflict.

Where's Bernie Ecclestone when you need him?

Got his feet up getting a massage from a 23 yr old super model probably! Bernie's strength was manifold, he understood his sport and he also understood how to entertain people. He also, like any successful tyrant knew when to get others to do that which they were strong in and he was weak. It's about results at the end of the day, and to get that when people are not actually dealing with their own areas of expertise needs the ability to let go of control.

The NZFWDA needs to put out an RFP to the TV industry as a whole to see if anyone is interested. Get a budget and then go after a sponsor. Having said that of course, for TV purely, a nonsanctioned event maybe the only way to go..... so long as they send me an invite!

[Flash2004]

[quote="yorick]
The NZFWDA needs to put out an RFP to the TV industry as a whole to see if anyone is interested. Get a budget and then go after a sponsor. Having said that of course, for TV purely, a nonsanctioned event maybe the only way to go..... so long as they send me an invite! [/quote]

If you're good enough Yorick...if you're good enough.... Actually I wouldn't have a clue if you're good enough or even who might be deciding who to invite, but let's hope the savvy you've shown here gets rewarded in some meaningful way? cheers.

[tpft]

wow

still think yacht racing is boring, and both v8,s and yachts have a little more budget.
to be honest i,ve bought both dvd,s and monday nights, sunday afternoons are highlight
of my veiwing week.

Rather watch any 4x4 coverage then none at all.
and hats off to them for getting it on the telly, didnt think coverage was that bad!!!
to be honest only reason i,ve kept sky.

[yorick]

The NZFWDA needs to put out an RFP to the TV industry as a whole to see if anyone is interested. Get a budget and then go after a sponsor. Having said that of course, for TV purely, a nonsanctioned event maybe the only way to go..... so long as they send me an invite!

If you're good enough Yorick...if you're good enough.... Actually I wouldn't have a clue if you're good enough or even who might be deciding who to invite, but let's hope the savvy you've shown here gets rewarded in some meaningful way? cheers.

Hey a first and a third in class in two rounds of the Laurie Sanson in a virtually bog standard Pajero gotta be worth something! Heh, actually I'd be more use as an AD or tech advisor on the film crew. But hey if there was a "triers" or "Wannabe" class .

Having said that I would suggest that such a series would need to have a recognition factor for the Audience. Tough trucks are cool for the cognoscenti, but a wagon based on a Remuera tractor body has greater recognition factor. Also it makes it easier for sponsors. For mine for a TV series I wouldn't have any wagon that wasn't "recognisable" by the punters. Having said all that, a Ute cab skin over a spaceframed comp truck would do the deal. TV is about visuals and getting it to a point where say Mitsi or Toyota feel that advertising during the show would be good for their exposure then it starts to pay the bills.

[yorick]

wow

still think yacht racing is boring, and both v8,s and yachts have a little more budget.
to be honest i,ve bought both dvd,s and monday nights, sunday afternoons are highlight
of my veiwing week.

Rather watch any 4x4 coverage then none at all.
and hats off to them for getting it on the telly, didnt think coverage was that bad!!!
to be honest only reason i,ve kept sky.

Problem is, the audience is more demanding these days, and you're right, I never missed it either and I daresay that was true for a lot of enthusiasts, but it was not up to best professional standards. To compete for viewers it needs to be sophisticated and inclusive. Viewer numbers equals happy sponsors and happy sponsors means more money and then more sponsors and greater TV exposure because TV only deals in numbers: Quality Programming = More Viewers so TV can sell to More advertisers. It's a spiralling effect.

[tpft]

u self employed guys. got nothing better to do huh?
u aint going to get a housewife, or kid or some poofta guy who,s not into motorsport to watch 4x4, just like they won,t sit down and watch moto gp or f1.
we have had world champion mx racer for years, hell of a lot more money floating there, and yet scarely gets a mention

unless you get all blacks playing rugby in 4x4,s, it will never get that mainstream, i,ve come from bike racing and i,ve seen bickering and fights for power and money kill a sport.
best that can be hoped for is at a level to match current jet sprint coverage.
a little more money and sponorship, some of the top guys get a little fame etc etc etc etc

in the end, u, me and every other nutter can still go and play in the mud, and have something kool too watch before missus steals remote for desperate housewives
i,ll stop here...............

[Flash2004]

in the end, u, me and every other nutter can still go and play in the mud, and have something kool too watch before missus steals remote for desperate housewives
i,ll stop here...............

And there you have it, desperate housewives mud wrestling in Pajeros!