bulletproof Fails-help needed

[Bulletproof]

Earlier this year I fitted the whole front end suspension of a Y60 nissan under my hilux.

While testing at anzac weekend I failed to get up petrol hill the first time. Looking at the video it is quite obvious why not.

The front end was bouncing therefore losing traction. I had 25lbs in the tyres. I then let the tyres down and drove up.
I noticed another safari there doing the same thing with the front wheels bouncing

Have any other Nissan owners experienced this ?
Is this normal for a Nissan or are there other shockabsorbers that will resolve the problem ?
What about adjustable Rancho's etc ?
I have Monroe 4x4 magnum shocks

In the first bit of the clip you will see what I mean. The second shows that with the tyres let down it helped alot and took away alot of the bounce .



Hoping for feedback and help

Richard

[mudzilla]

Its trying to reject the datsun parts

[haynzy]

I hate to say it m8 cause you have a nice rig but its the toyota god damning you to a life of failed hill climbs and 4x4 embarassment redeem your self and put the yota cart springs back in

[DaveM]

I'm told that if you don't get the control arms set right, you will get the bouncing front end, my shrty did this after lifting it, but improved a lot when I put drop boxes in.

Would different valved shock help?

[rokhound]

Both very valid points

If you look in your vid, there is no excessive bounce from either end which rules out the anit squat theory. If you watch a Nissan when the front bounces, the bum squats down first and gives heaps of traction, this cause the front to lift, breaking some traction, which causes the back end to unload off the ground as well. When the back end looses traction, the front comes back to earth and the whole cycle starts again. With a 4 link rear suspension set up, you can dial this out, or in.

Your rig just simply looks like it was one of those days. It wasn't doing any major bouncing ( and in fact when it did, you made it). You know more than any one how finicky the coast tracks can be, with the clay at different co-efficients every time you drive them. If you look at your failed climb, your wheels locked and would not hold the truck in place, I reckon you are being too hard on the truck, It looks to me simply like a loss of traction deal. And you solved it by using the tried and tested tyre pressure method. Unfortunatly, no one has the ultimate rig for all uses, but I know how you feel when you used to piss all over a certain spot, and then you get a time when it all turns to shit. Forget those times, and keep remembering the tracks that you and your rig were first ( or very nearly first) to conquer.

[tgaguy1]

Nissan's do bounce, And not just shorties. Most Nissan's setup for competition run dual front shocks. If you make your second set adjustable you will be able to dial it in for the lighter weight of your truck over that of a Nissan.

[SMOKEY]

Don't be to hard on yourself Richard, we know your not Bulletproof, and the Lux is going through a change in life,accept as we get older things don't work the same, .
My In Line 6 PETROL has made the climb on three previous occasions but last November I think it was ( one of Al's trips ) I to failed. I think the rock face has got a lot higher and steeper, It's hard to get traction and stop the bouncing when your front wheels hit and get drive while the rear is in the loose shale then the front is air born while the rear is still trying to find grip, momentum eventually takes you over the top and the front drops about a meter, you button off for a second and then floor it, the rear has mean time contacted the rock face and gets full drive which lifts the front again. At this stage I let the Hill win, when you think about the strain going through the drive train I let the winch do the work and live to drive the vehicle home.

MAY BE I'M GETTING OLD,

FITZY.

[Bulletproof]

Nissan's do bounce, And not just shorties. Most Nissan's setup for competition run dual front shocks. If you make your second set adjustable you will be able to dial it in for the lighter weight of your truck over that of a Nissan.

What kind of shocks do they run ?
Has anyone any pics of the setup ?

Good comments Guys

Thanks Richard

[wjw]

I had monroes in the back of the prado for a while, I got rid of them because they were too hard. Are they speced for nissan front or toyota front?

[Bulletproof]

I had monroes in the back of the prado for a while, I got rid of them because they were too hard. Are they speced for nissan front or toyota front?

These shocks are the same as Paul Delis is running in the Prado. They are speced for a range rover.

On a range rover or prado they are up the middle of the spring and quite close to the wheel.On the Nissan they ares back along the Radius arm giving alot more leverage and the need for less travel so could possibly be harder.

Generally they are performing well but I'm always looking for ways to improve if that is possible.

Thanks Richard

[tgaguy1]

Nissan's do bounce, And not just shorties. Most Nissan's setup for competition run dual front shocks. If you make your second set adjustable you will be able to dial it in for the lighter weight of your truck over that of a Nissan.

What kind of shocks do they run ?
Has anyone any pics of the setup ?

Good comments Guys

Thanks Richard

Here are a couple of photos I found on the web a while ago. I dont remember the site they are off.

[Bulletproof]

Here are a couple of photos I found on the web a while ago. I dont remember the site they are off.

Thanks for the pics.
It looks as if the main spring is adjustable as well. Might be a good idea

Thank Richard

[DaveM]

It looks as if the main spring is adjustable as well. Might be a good idea

Thank Richard

Normal coils I think, but adjustable bumpstops

[rokhound]

I don't think that one has adjustable spring perch's. It does have some of those nice hydraulic bump stops though. There would be enormous stress placed on the housing when being driven in anger with those shocks hanging out the side (needs lots of beefing up from there).
Adjustable spring perch's are a good idea though Richard, can be of use if you are using really soft spring rates. I made some for the back springs on mine, but don't actually use them much.
Another thing for you to try is to hook your winch to the housing and pull everything together. The yanks have been doing this in their rock rigs for years, seems to work alright, but I have never tried it.

[Bulletproof]

I don't think that one has adjustable spring perch's. It does have some of those nice hydraulic bump stops though. There would be enormous stress placed on the housing when being driven in anger with those shocks hanging out the side (needs lots of beefing up from there).
Adjustable spring perch's are a good idea though Richard, can be of use if you are using really soft spring rates. I made some for the back springs on mine, but don't actually use them much.
Another thing for you to try is to hook your winch to the housing and pull everything together. The yanks have been doing this in their rock rigs for years, seems to work alright, but I have never tried it.

I have an adjustable perch on my rear centre spring and the idea of adjusting the front apeals to me because Hilux always sag on the front drivers side.
Bad design Battery , steering box , fuel tank , driver all on the same side so to put extra pressure on the front spring would be an advantage.

Some are saying I should accept the defeat on petrol hill. I have never accepted defeat and have always analyzed why and have made appropriate changes even if only small.

Alot of good comments coming and I hope they keep coming.

Thanks Richard

[wjw]

What motor does your truck run? I would think your front end would be quite a bit lighter than Paul's as his 1KZ is quite heavy. My front end rose about 30mm with the change from the 1KZ to the 2JZ

[Bulletproof]

What motor does your truck run? I would think your front end would be quite a bit lighter than Paul's as his 1KZ is quite heavy. My front end rose about 30mm with the change from the 1KZ to the 2JZ

I have a 5L 3000 with a supercharger and intercooler fitted and think my motor would probably weigh more than Pauls because mine has a cast iron head .Pauls is alloy.

My bull bar would also weigh more than Pauls. All up with the Gear Im between 2050 to 2100 and thats why I wonder whether the shocks are too light.
What I would really like to know is whether any Nissan owners are running Rancho 9000 adjustable and what they think of them
Cheer Richard

[DaveM]

What I would really like to know is whether any Nissan owners are running Rancho 9000 adjustable and what they think of them
Cheer Richard

I have run them, snapped the top off 2 sets, and it wasn't because they were the wrong length, but in saying that, I'm told they seem to give up on heavy Nissans, so you may be ok on the lux.
If you want something you can constantly adjust, I would try the Tough Dogs, but if you want something you want to adjust to suit and then leave them set, I'd go Koni, as I think you have to unbolt the tops for adjustment (twist adjustment I think)

[Bulletproof]

What I would really like to know is whether any Nissan owners are running Rancho 9000 adjustable and what they think of them
Cheer Richard

I have run them, snapped the top off 2 sets, and it wasn't because they were the wrong length, but in saying that, I'm told they seem to give up on heavy Nissans, so you may be ok on the lux.
If you want something you can constantly adjust, I would try the Tough Dogs, but if you want something you want to adjust to suit and then leave them set, I'd go Koni, as I think you have to unbolt the tops for adjustment (twist adjustment I think)

Thanks for the info Dave,

Why do you think the shocks broke on the top ?
Was there enough room where they fit through the top perch because on my ones i had to grind more out to stop the shocks binding on the side ?
The rancho 9000s are my preference

Cheers Richard

[mudzilla]

I like my Rancho 9000"s with the coil setup, Set and forget. Only thing I have found is eating the nolethene bushes, Rubber ones are 100 times better.
Wayne.

[albundy]

Richard, my mate Rude coming from oz for the b/day trip ran ranchos, he thought they were shit, talk with him about them. As for the bouncng front end, it is something I have had to get used to driving the nissan. Too much throttle and it wll bounce, the torque has got to go somewhere. This is were you need expert throttle control. That's why I am looking at crawler gears to reduce this problem significantly. I have only driven petrol hill once and same thing happened, Wife was in truck so never had second go. Reckon I could have got it though with better throttle control and "walking" the truck. I am interested in going back with the new TJM suspension as it seems to be more positive, in which I mean you can feel it pushing the tyre into the ground.
Al

[DaveM]

Why do you think the shocks broke on the top ?


Cheers Richard

I couldn't honestly say why, I broke the eyes off the rears, and one front cracked at the top around the pin.
I ran Pro Comps after that, which are "cheap 'n' nasty" shocks in the US, but nver had a problem with them.

[NJV6]

Have had 3 (maybe 4 I forget) Rancho 9000 fail as well. If they are not ripping eye's off they are going all spongy and may as well not bother with a shock.

[Engineer]

yep ive had to weld the eyes back on acouple ranchos out of a cruiser that doesnt even go offroad lol

[KiwiBacon]

Antisquat/dive is what you're looking at, it makes the truck bounce and lose traction under power on slippery ground. But in that video it's really minor, trucks that get it really bad look like a caterpillar trying to get up a hill in a hurry.

I agree with the others, some shock tuning will sort it, it's not bad enough to get into suspension geometry modifications.

[Sadam_Husain]

After waiting half the morning for my dial-up to download those vids your tyres look like there as hard as rocks going up that face. I cant see any bagging with a 2 ton truck on top of them?

[SMOKEY]

A lot of shock absorbers are made by the same manufacture and then re badged and on sold. If you look at how well the eyes and pins are attached, no wonder they let go, re welding is strongly recommended. One other thing that will cause shocks to fail is using the shock as a suspension travel limiting device, make sure your shocks aren't bottoming out or trying to go past there limit of travel. I fitted Pedders to the Cruiser and apart from damage externally have had no problems at all. Would I fit them again ?, probably not only because with the fitment to my vehicle they seem to get bashed , I would probably go for cheaper ones and replace them on a more regular basis.

NOTHING WRONG WITH A BIT OF UP AND DOWN NOW AND AGAIN ,

FITZY.

[darinz]

It is simple. Your tyres were too hard. 25psi is a road pressure. I know you guys down south run higher pressures due to the rocks but even 15 to 20 would make a massive difference and I'd have done that at about 10 -12psi.
The springs look like they are too hard and don't have enough damping. ie the shocks are valved too soft for the springs. It doesn't appear that the suspension was doing anything particulary bad except you were skipping the surface which is what makes me think it is a spring/shock rate problem
As for drop boxes, they are very very good IF the angle of the radius arms is too great. If it is too great then the shock loads are feed through the arms to the chassis rather than through the springs and shocks. you have to balance the need for drop boxes vs the need for clearance.

I have the exact same twin shock / hydraulic bump stop setup as the photo's and the difference that makes is quite mind blowing. There are 2 problems with a SWB Nissan. The shocks are too small (short) so the oil volume is too small causing very bad fade. The other is the wheelbase is too short that causes bunny hopping. The easiest fix for the shocks is to get 80 series Landcruiser shocks and use those. (I won't go into brand for obvious rasons). They are valved the same as a GQ (if they are designed for the truck and not just a set length shock like Rancho etc) so work the same but have 30% greater oil volume to resist fade. To fit them you need to raise the shock tower by 61mm and then the compressed length is the same so bumpstops can stay the same. This is what I have but I'm running 2 of them. In theory this gives you greater down travel as well due to the longer length. The reaity is the 3 link design stops the down travel due to lack of flex in the chassis bush.
What springs are you using? ie what rating? You have to remember if they are GQ springs then they are designed for an axle load af about 1500kg. Not sure of exact sprung weight but would be over a 1000kg for a TD42. Hiluxs are light, very light compared to a GQ so I'd be looking hard at your spring and shock combination.
Just as an idea, I have 250lb springs and twin LC seires shocks. It is all OME gear so shocks are valed to suit but I now have 2 of them so double the damping. With this the faster I go the better the suspension works. (right up untill I can't control it) Also take into account that the motor I have is 135ish kgs light than factory, the batteries are in the back, the winch is in the back, the body has be shifted back on the chassis, it has virtually no bar on the front (easily carry with one hand). I would gues that my front end is closer to yours in weight than a GQ with TD42 and all other factory stuff.

[Bulletproof]

Thanks you guys for all your helpful hints and thoughts.
You have confirmed what I suspected that the Shocks are a little light for the springs. I think I will get some adjustable ones any way and then at least I can experiment. No two trucks perform the same for quite a number of reasons so I am left with no choice but to experiment myself.
Normally I do run very low pressures and with the leaf springs had no option. With the coils it is like an armchair ride and I was running the higher pressures for testing sake and once they were let down drove up petrol hill without any trouble.
Having the higher pressure at least showed up where I can improve.

Im still not sure which brand though. They need the good oil supply and a strong shaft to stop them from bending.
But as they say . Even if they are no good , they are still making shocks.

Thanks Richard

[timotheus]

Jafa might be able to get some of 5150's for you. Supposed to be great.
Remote reservoir might be the way to go if you want more oil without sacrificing space.

http://www.trail-gear.com/shocks.html

If you didnt know, Jafa is the agent for trailgear here.
Tim.