differant form of diff lock

[tpft]

crack pot idea, need someone to tell me it won,t work

instead of running diff lockers on my project truck (trials) and it is pretty radical but won,t go into that right now.
Anyway if diffheads were locked front and rear, and instead i machined up a clutch on each hub, with pressure plate
and fluid thrust breaing, do u think running this off the fiddles would work.......

Rh turn, first half pull of fiddle unlocks the clutches on that side of the vechile, if a tighter turn is needed more pull activates the brakes on that side.

inside of the wheel would form the surface for the clutch to press on, alloy pressure plate would run 6x adjustable springs.
and suitably water proofed
navi would be playing a active part in normal driving, however to have seamless drive capabilty i think would be an advanatge....................................
plus being able to introduce some slip into a wheel
other forms of electromagnetic clutches similair to what ride-ons use or even air powered, but i favor fluid.

[turoa]

the only problem I could see is that the clutches may get full of mud and would probably be pretty heavy

[skid]

have heard similar ideas thrown around, but it was to do with a hydraulically driven truck, where you would stop drive to a certain wheel causing it to lock and therefore become a fiddle brake.

it sounds like way too much kiwi inginuity

if you are mechanically minded as it sounds and want to tinker, then work out how these guys make a hydraulic locker and fabricate a couple of those along with 4 wheel brakes

seems easier to use to me

in or out with the pull of a lever

ARBs have been known to stay engaged after the switch has been flicked off, which causes no end of grief in a trialing situation where you want to turn bloody tight immediately.

just a thought

SKID

[Flash2004]

Both Walton trucks (I believe) have both diffs locked by default and are only released as the navi begins to pull any of the fiddles. This radically different system is why Chase struggled a bit to come to grips with it initially. The diffs are locked by spring or mechanical pressure and released by the hydraulic pressure generated from the fiddle.

Seems a brilliant idea to me but then there are a few, including me, who are dubious about the role of the front locker on hill climbs. Its too easy to pass your front end heading down while the rear is still climbing. Your idea might boost your unsprung weight well beyond healthy levels and might also see you spending most of your time in the pits instead of focussing on the coming hazards. Operating on the KISS principle has been well proven to give the best results.

[turoa]

Both Walton trucks (I believe) have both diffs locked by default and are only released as the navi begins to pull any of the fiddles.

wrong, they have hydraulic lockers

[Bulletproof]

Rh turn, first half pull of fiddle unlocks the clutches on that side of the vechile, if a tighter turn is needed more pull activates the brakes on that side.

All John Deere crawler tractors have dont exactly this for the past 60 years so it is not a stupid idea.
The whole setup could be at the diff end and sealed from the shit but would probably cost more.

Cheers Richard

[Flash2004]

Both Walton trucks (I believe) have both diffs locked by default and are only released as the navi begins to pull any of the fiddles.

wrong, they have hydraulic lockers

As politely as I can put it (and you could possibly take a lesson from that,) one or two seasons back you would have been right, nowadays, I am probably right and you are probably misinformed. There are experts you could ask yourself.

[Flash2004]

Rh turn, first half pull of fiddle unlocks the clutches on that side of the vechile, if a tighter turn is needed more pull activates the brakes on that side.

All John Deere crawler tractors have dont exactly this for the past 60 years so it is not a stupid idea.
The whole setup could be at the diff end and sealed from the shit but would probably cost more.

Cheers Richard

Not just John Deere, but almost all crawler tractors/dozers braked and steered in a way similar but not the same as this since day one. The difference is though that the brake/clutch mechanisms were almost always inboard before the drive went to the "bull gears" or final drives then to the sprockets and onto the ground through the tracks. There were as many systems as there were manufacturers and models with some better than others and long arguments over slabs of beer in small pubs around the world. Completely different to what tpft is suggesting.

[KiwiBacon]

You'll need either a very large clutch disc, a serious amount of spring pressure or a multi-plate clutch pack to resist the torque that exists at a hub.

If you can get around those issues, it's a workable idea.

[tpft]

huge area to work with in dead space inside rim.
i,m thinking under 10kg per wheel, perhaps with driveshaft brake to decrease total unsprung further

however more i look into it perhaps cone clutch, smaller and lighter with high spring pressure is easy to incorperate
fluid lines and release bearing.

will post up some drawings when i got the bugs worked out

[cool__bananas]

Both Walton trucks (I believe) have both diffs locked by default and are only released as the navi begins to pull any of the fiddles.

wrong, they have hydraulic lockers

As politely as I can put it (and you could possibly take a lesson from that,) one or two seasons back you would have been right, nowadays, I am probably right and you are probably misinformed. There are experts you could ask yourself.

your both right but i have to say turoa is more correct, they are hydraulic lockers, the back can be turned on and off like normal, a air ram pressurises the oil which pushes the clutches of the lsd together, but then when a rear fiddle break lever is pulled it turns it off, so if the locker switch is on, its on unless a rear break lever is pulled, and if its off its off.

the front is just a lever inbetween the four fiddle break levers, thats why there is 5 levers on the dash, so when the middle lever is pulled, the harder you pull it, the more the locker is on. so you could pull the front locker lever and break at the same time and it would probably break something, unless it also is the same as the back, but im 110% sure cause i work for the guy who built the truck and rebuilds a minimum of 4 diffs every time that truck goes to a trial.

i had to say something long and smart cause i usually dont know anything

[skid]

Both Walton trucks (I believe) have both diffs locked by default and are only released as the navi begins to pull any of the fiddles.

wrong, they have hydraulic lockers

As politely as I can put it (and you could possibly take a lesson from that,) one or two seasons back you would have been right, nowadays, I am probably right and you are probably misinformed. There are experts you could ask yourself.

now I didn't want to get involved, but Gordon earlier on in this thread you stated something and followed it with "(I believe)".

which to me states that you were not so sure of your reply

now I realise that you have a bit to do with the sport through spnsorship etc etc, which is all good and appreciated probably more than people have told you.

this time however, I think you maybe wrong (I believe)

Phillips truck is Martins old truck and as far as I'm aware and I don't think it has been changed, there are 5 levers in front of the navigator, 4 are individual wheels brakes and the middle one activates the hydraulic lockers either front or rear depending on the setting of a separate switch/valve.

the middle one also of late had a switch on the top of it for the NOS, but this may have been removed.

The reason Chace may have looked like he was having difficulty coming to terms with the vehicle, could well be due to the fact that he has been a driver ever since I can remember.

Martins new truck from what I've been told is a copy of the first one with maybe a few subtle changes.

the other reason why I think young Turoa may be correct is that he has worked for the chap that built the truck that Phillip now competes in and knowing Turoa, he would of been picking Brians mind the whole time he worked there.

Turoa is not one to state a vehicles modifications unless he is 100% sure of what he is saying.


hopefully there is someone on here who has the correct information we need to put this debate to rest.

[cool__bananas]

good one skid you stupid, i just said all that!!!!!!!!!!!!! and ive been working there for over a year, turoas only been there 3 weeks!!!

[Moriarty]

Tell you want, people, If 2s was to offer me an opinion on ANYTHING mechanical, you can be sure I would consider long and hard about arguing.
Our club is fortunate indeed, to have 2s and James as members.

Perhaps 2s, who is a shy and reserved young man, makes a bold statement, may well be sure of his ground.

perhaps, we as supposed older and wiser adults, should perhaps, allow that mayhap he DOES know what he is talking bout???

[cool__bananas]

what about me im captain retard

[Moriarty]

what about me im captain retard

nuff said then!!! Yer own fault for hanging around with skid and jerry


Back to the topic in hand, designing a weird diff.......


Get de-ranged into this too.

[skid]

good one skid you stupid, i just said all that!!!!!!!!!!!!! and ive been working there for over a year, turoas only been there 3 weeks!!!

coz I'm older and wiser, it took me longer to conjure up my reply so as to come across nicer than you.

so whilst I was taking 20 mins to write it up, some little shit came along with his ego and wrote exactly what I was methodically working my way through.

cheers mitch

what about me im captain retard

YES YOU ARE MITCH

[Heath]

Its that slow lap top of yours Skid.

[skid]

Its that slow lap top of yours Skid.

but my truck goes





couldn't resist

[Heath]

Touche, Ya got me there.

Heath

Just wait though I have my super glue and expanding foam

[cool__bananas]

its just skid, not his lap top, skids the one hus slow

[tpft]

logged in this morning, to check if any usefull insight before i spend a day in the shed, but as normal
its turned into a skid love fest.

[Flash2004]

quote="Flash2004"]Both Walton trucks (I believe) have both diffs locked by default and are only released as the navi begins to pull any of the fiddles.
quote]

Thanks for your comment Skid, I can recall the two conversations I've had with Mr. Walton as he explained the subject in quite some depth and compared how they worked to Howie's system. Since it wasn't yesterday, I can not be absolutely certain if my memory is correct on every detail. At least we know now that I was right about the rear axle operation. But its not about being right, I've been wrong often enough that its not vital to my psyche to always be right.

I made the comment and suggestion merely because it was another way of looking at a problem and judging by the way those trucks perform, could be worth considering instead of tpft having to "reinvent the wheel". You obviously have some clever clues TP, and I don't think it would be as difficult to fab up something inside the diff cage as it would be inside the wheels and might work better.

On the other hand, thinking outside the square like Tp demonstrates is never a talent which should be dissed as its a real asset that few enjoy. I have my own plans for a diesel powered hydrostatically driven (to each wheel) trombone extendable (length adjustable) pivot steer hybrid which will probably never see the light of day either. cheers

[skid]

logged in this morning, to check if any usefull insight before i spend a day in the shed, but as normal
its turned into a skid love fest.

WTF

my comments were merely to point out that I thought Mr Burnside may have been misinformed, but if you wanna take that as a Skid Luv Fest, then be my ####### guest.

I'm all for people who think outside the square, coz its the kiwi attitude and there have been some great inventions and vehicles built by kiwis who have thought outside that square.

I don't give a flying #### what you thought, I know what I was writing and if you took it the wrong way, then thats your problem.

hope you had a nice day in the shed and came up with some bright ideas for your project, should be good to see another new truck on the scene.

Skid out

[KiwiBacon]

logged in this morning, to check if any usefull insight before i spend a day in the shed, but as normal
its turned into a skid love fest.

To get it back on track, if you need any formulae to calculate what size clutch disc, what application force, how many plates etc, let me know.

[tpft]

anyway, to answer above, benefit of mounting inside wheels instead of either side of diff.
i would like to get rid of that big hunk of metal hanging down at lowest point of car i.e diff

waisted space inside wheels, won,t affect ground clearance, inside of rim forms big metal disc/clutch friction surface etc etc
not sure if unsprung weight that important in trials, spinning mass like filling tyre with water has benefits too.
trials reas slow most of the time, wheel is not getting fired up with lots of inertia.(ok most of the time )

other option is some varition of a fluid drive, my v8 bike uses a fluid drive taken from a big sawmill, (torque convertor without stator) hold 4litres of oil and reas tunable with changing weight of oil and amount.

Which brings onto a another thought, if all four wheels have clutches, don,t need one between gearbox.(dog clutch?)
i,m not a big fan of gearboxes either..............cvt provides endless combinations

[cool__bananas]

so got any pics of the new truck? what youve done so far? what season is it gona be ready for? were building a new truck for the 09/10 season

[tpft]

so got any pics of the new truck? what youve done so far? what season is it gona be ready for? were building a new truck for the 09/10 season

semi rolling chassis , front and rear hilux diffs, rims and half the motor (2600cc 8 cyclinder) seats, and other rubbish
after our club champs finished i,ll sell the zuk and get into it properly.

debut?

i think it was flash mentioned electic motors ?
illegal for rock crawling

[cool__bananas]

2.6L v8? tell me more

[rokhound]

Don't know what the rules are for trials. But have you looked at the idea of fluid drive on all 4 cnrs. No need for axles or diffs, just need to sort out some sort of swivel at the front. Not sure on the weight issue as I guess you will need a fair bit of hydraulic oil to run it, but there may be some clever "fluid" guys here who enlighten us all.
Just a thought anyway