1KZ surf transformed to Coil SAS club truck

[Bulletproof]

Hi Tim
If you use the prado radius arms and the prado tie rod, what you must watch for is that as you rotate the swivles backward to bring the castor right you might find the tie rod scrapes the radius rods.

I still have this problem with the nissan suspension and had to grind some of the radius rod away but it still rubs.

The clearance can look good while the wheels are straight ahead but as you go from lock to lock the tie rod moves up and down 20 mm so you have to check the clearance on full lock .

Just something to be aware of.

Cheers Richard

[rokhound]

Are you leaving the radius arms as they Tim, or going over the top? If you are staying on 33's you may as well have as much clearance as you can get eh.

[timotheus]

Its nice to see some more tech back here.

If im getting where rokhound is coming from, I also wonder why you would use the standard poo-do arms?

Why not get some tube and johnny joints and put some length under there?
If your worried about too much droop just get some good limiting straps.

From what ive read (in that pirate link too) longer is more comfortable and normally less stressful on parts since they arc wider.

Tim.

[Bulletproof]

Its nice to see some more tech back here.

If im getting where rokhound is coming from, I also wonder why you would use the standard poo-do arms?

Why not get some tube and johnny joints and put some length under there?
If your worried about too much droop just get some good limiting straps.

From what ive read (in that pirate link too) longer is more comfortable and normally less stressful on parts since they arc wider.

Tim.

There are advantages and disadvantages here and the longer arms are more comfortable and less stressful.

1 Any longer arm works gives better articulation but the disadvantage is that it goes further back at a lower lever which means it is more likely to get damaged.

One of the reasons I used the nissan radius arms is they bend straight up behind the diff getting them out of the way. I have still bent one though.

2 The disadvantage of tube is that it is easily bent as opposed to the cast iron. On our trip last weekend a highly modified bighorn completely broke a radius rod and it had to be tied with rope.

Cheers Richard

[hosehustler]

Thanks to you all for your input so far, and please keep it coming
at this stage I'm working on disemboweling the Surf of the "I.t...F.kn...S.uks" Suspension.
I have decided on what i'll be doing to widen out the prado front end to match the rear, maximum width wheel spacers allowable now is 20mm (too narrow), the IFS hub spacers I used on the old surf aren't now certifiable as the IFS rotor doesn't make full contact with the pads.
So today I ordered a set of Rotor spacers from Jafa the same as we had made for Dads truck, that will mean the Prado rotors and callipers will be used, IFS hubs from the Surf, stub axles wheel bearings and seals from a beam axle hilux, and a set of Hilux 30 spline Aisin FWH to finish it off


Here's an IFS hub compared to Beam axle/prado(Different at FWH end as they have the electric hubs), notice how much wider the IFS off set is


And this is the rotor spacer/adaptor, allows for the difference between IFS rotor stud pattern to Prado/LN106 rotor pattern and also allows for the rotor to realligned to the beam axle calliper



Finished



This achieves original rotor so full pad contact, certification, same wheel width as IFS Rear , and of course the 30 spline Aisin FWB fits nicely on the end

Well that's the plan with the width issue

[NJV6]

How did you have it done on your last truck?

The one we have just done we used the original IFS rotor and IFS calliper but using the Prado hub with the spacer in the same place as your photos. Same result I guess.
Doing it this way meant we could not use the stone guard as it rubbed, and it also makes the disc stick outside the wheel dish with a Hilux offset wheel.

Also I am helping a mate who is doing a SAS on a 130 surf like yours. Everything lines up pretty well if you are going to re-use all the mounts.

The Panhard/steering is the issue - The Panhard mount is wanting to go where the steering arm swings.
- Maybe want a Prado/80 series front swing steering box? At very least the pitman arm so you can use the prado steering arm.
- Space the IFS one further forward but I think there is a crossmember in the way?
- Shorten the panhard

Having said that I'd be interested to hear what others have done regarding steering.

[hilux_dave]

looking good Tim

[H2OLOVA]

Also I am helping a mate who is doing a SAS on a 130 surf like yours. Everything lines up pretty well if you are going to re-use all the mounts.

The Panhard/steering is the issue - The Panhard mount is wanting to go where the steering arm swings.
- Maybe want a Prado/80 series front swing steering box? At very least the pitman arm so you can use the prado steering arm.
- Space the IFS one further forward but I think there is a crossmember in the way?
- Shorten the panhard

Having said that I'd be interested to hear what others have done regarding steering.

some of the Trailgear High Steer Arms might fix that

[Bulletproof]

The Panhard/steering is the issue - The Panhard mount is wanting to go where the steering arm swings.
- Maybe want a Prado/80 series front swing steering box? At very least the pitman arm so you can use the prado steering arm.
- Space the IFS one further forward but I think there is a crossmember in the way?
- Shorten the panhard

Having said that I'd be interested to hear what others have done regarding steering.

On my hilux I have used a 70series steering box but still had problem with the pitman arm and the panhard rod being too close'.
I went through all the toyota steering boxes at the wreakers and found that there are different lenght and shape pitman arms but the splines are all the same so you can mix and match. I found a shorter one that resolved my problem.

Between prados ,hiluxs and cruisers all the top and bottom king pin mounts are also inter-changeable which also give lots of steering options.
I also had to shorten the panhard rod. If you are raising the truck it is important to weld it back together half way through the suspenion travel otherwise they bind and restrict articulation.

Cheers Richard

[hosehustler]

I'm sticking to the prado style tie rod behind the diff, I will be rplacing the tie rod with a TG one though so no need for the hi steer arms, also to run hi steer you need plenty of lift, i'm aiming to keep the centre of gravity down
What I will be doing to avoid the panhard/draglink clashing problem is moving the Steering box forward, and altering the angle it sits on, After plenty of reading, own experience on the old truck, and talking to others such as richard I intend to use a prado pitman arm (they are shorter, flatter, and accept the ball joint (are female) of an 80 series which i'll be using on the TG drag link)
A 70 series steering box (bigger seals and internals than the Lux box), and a longer sterring shaft to reach the new position of the steering box.
This should mean enough room for the other bits I will post pics as I do the fitment, but a plan is essential
Here's how an Aussie fellow did his steering box shift in an IFS chassis, it's very tidy a strengthens the box mount and the chassis

[hosehustler]

How did you have it done on your last truck?

The one we have just done we used the original IFS rotor and IFS calliper but using the Prado hub with the spacer in the same place as your photos. Same result I guess.

Thats how I did it last time, it's no longer certifiable as the pads don't fully contact the rotor as the IFS rotor is smaller in diameter the a beam axle or prado, this means as the brake pads wear, a small amount at the top af the pad doesn't wear away.
I didn't think it was a big dram but the cert guys don't/won't accept it.

[Bulletproof]

Hi Tim
Another thing that is important is to keep the panhard rod as level with the diff as possible other wise as the suspenion drops it pull the axle too much towards the driver side. In my case because the panhard rod is 70mm higher on the chassis end it pulls the axle about 30mm to the right as the wheel drops which means the tyres can be pulled onto the suspension as it articulates.
To strenghten the chassis as well I used another panhard rod from where the panhard rod attaches to the bracket on the chassis to the other side chassis rail.

I'll post some pics tomorrow. Page 2 of the hilux specs shows it a bit.

Richard

[Jafa]

More importantly you must have the panhard parallel to the drag link, with the chassis mount end inline with the pitman arm, to match the radius of the drag link to eliminate bump steer as much as possible (esp for a road going vehicle). They way to stop the diff moving sideways as it drops, as much as possible, is to make the panhard as long and as flat as possible. You cant stop it moving sideways altogether, due to the fact that one end is fixed to the chassis, and the panhard is, in effect, a radius rod. The reasoning behind parallel to the draglink is to have the two "radius rods" (draglink and panhard) sharing their centre point, therefore not allowing the rise and drop of the axle housing to push and pull on the pitman arm becuase of the draglink not having the same radius and centre as the panhard.......hope all that make sence

[rokhound]

More importantly you must have the panhard parallel to the drag link, with the chassis mount end inline with the pitman arm, to match the radius of the drag link to eliminate bump steer as much as possible (esp for a road going vehicle). They way to stop the diff moving sideways as it drops, as much as possible, is to make the panhard as long and as flat as possible. You cant stop it moving sideways altogether, due to the fact that one end is fixed to the chassis, and the panhard is, in effect, a radius rod. The reasoning behind parallel to the draglink is to have the two "radius rods" (draglink and panhard) sharing their centre point, therefore not allowing the rise and drop of the axle housing to push and pull on the pitman arm becuase of the draglink not having the same radius and centre as the panhard.......hope all that make sence

Exactly

[Bulletproof]

Hi Tim
What Jafa and rokhound say is right about everything being parrallel .

Here are pics of mine to show how I braced the botton of the panhard bracket to the other chassis rail.

Also shows how I made an adaption plate to mount the steering box out of 12mm steel plate and used countersunk 12mm cap screws for two of the steering box bolts.

I personally dont like making one section of chassis too stiff because it doesn't allow flex and can crack beyond the weld at the start of the strenghtened section. Thats only my opinion and if others have proven otherwise thats fine. I also dont like long continuous welds for the same reason.








This is the other problem regarding castor with the tie rod at the back of the diff. My castor is 3.4 degrees but I can't go any less because the tie rod scrapes the radius rod. If you use the prado radius rods you could have the same problem on the top of the radius rods because to get the castor right with a lift you would need to rotate the swivel hubs backward and then on lock they may scrape the radius rods.

Because with a 3.4 degree castor combined with the 9 degree king pin angle my tie rod rises and falls nearly 35mm from lock to lock.
Here are pics showing both locks. Dont worry about the loose nut as I am staightening the tie rod.






Cheers Richard

[U-BOAT]

For the conversion Tim, what are you going to use - coilover shocks or prado coils with coil towers adapted to the chassis/build your own setup? When i get time im going to coil my ln106 hilux as i have a complete rolled prado which i'll transfer bits over from. Looking forward to see how your comes along.

cheers U-Boat

[hosehustler]

For the conversion Tim, what are you going to use - coilover shocks or prado coils with coil towers adapted to the chassis/build your own setup? When i get time im going to coil my ln106 hilux as i have a complete rolled prado which i'll transfer bits over from. Looking forward to see how your comes along.

cheers U-Boat

I'm intending to use raised prado coils, longer shocks, I did consider coilovers and custom radius arms to get more flex but have decided against any "custom" parts, the main reason is apart from keeping costs down, and sure the vehicle won't be quite as capable as with custom setups, but if I break anything while away on the coast or elsewhere in our fine country then parts will be available at the local wrecker or off someones truck in the paddock, it wouldn't be the end of the weekend away

[hosehustler]

castor correction bushes

They're way too expensive for what they are....in other words I think they're a rip off and i'm not spending on them , but I do appreciate the input Bill I did look into that option after I read your post
tore down the Prado front axle yesterday and to cut the swivel housings and rotate them is a mission, you can't do it without chopping off the lower spring mounts as they are in the way.
Chatting to someone local who has done a similar Prado SAS and it looks as if there is a local blacksmith who has done several of them, he alters the radius arms, so that appears at this stage to be the option to explore.....this weeks challenge
All the hub bits are sorted, measured and ready for the spacers from Jafa, I did have fun getting those Prado bearing retainers off, after breaking 2 of those little star screw bits, I got evil with a big cold chisel and hammer....works every time.

[NJV6]

I did have fun getting those Prado bearing retainers off, after breaking 2 of those little star screw bits, I got evil with a big cold chisel and hammer....woks every time.

Yep, I had to do the same to mine, I think the drill was involved too.

[oldblue]

This works every time, buy a 3/8" drive Tork bit , fit it to the screw head, then wack it a couple of times to ease the nip, if it is still tight then a few more wacks.

[hosehustler]

This works every time, buy a 3/8" drive Tork bit , fit it to the screw head, then wack it a couple of times to ease the nip, if it is still tight then a few more wacks.

Both times it broke I had it in my impact driver, didn't really matter that i smashed them off as the prado hubs are going in the bin.
The best Mod you can do in hubs for the prado is throw them away and the stub axles, fit a set of hilux stub axles, hilux hubs, and then a set of Aisin manual hubs......or do the ifs hub swap as well like i have and widen the wheel track.

Actually If anyone wants to turn their prado electric hubs to manual FWH's...... the axle I bought had been adapted to take manual hubs, I won't be using those bits, there is a spacer/adaptor for each side and a set of AVM 30 spline manual FWH....make an offer

And as for the SAS, I've started work today with the grinder.... so it's coming along

[hosehustler]

didn't get much done today......went whitebaiting
Better do something on it tomorrow

[Engineer]

didn't get much done today......went whitebaiting
Better do something on it tomorrow

are you grinding all mounts etc out with the engine in place or using a gas plant or plasma?
i used plasma and chewed it all out with engine in place and ground most of it up in couple hours,id hate to have to grind it all out with the engine in!!

Cheers
Ryan

[hosehustler]

I'm hoping to get the loan of a plasma for a weekend

[Chopper01]

didn't get much done today......went whitebaiting
Better do something on it tomorrow

are you grinding all mounts etc out with the engine in place or using a gas plant or plasma?
i used plasma and chewed it all out with engine in place and ground most of it up in couple hours,id hate to have to grind it all out with the engine in!!

Cheers
Ryan

the best thing I ever bought was the plasma it save so much time

[NJV6]

Chatting to someone local who has done a similar Prado SAS and it looks as if there is a local blacksmith who has done several of them, he alters the radius arms, so that appears at this stage to be the option to explore.....this weeks challenge

I understand straightened arms are no longer certifiable. This may be worng however.
My thoughts for mine were to be to get the rear radius arms tacked into place, get the vehicle all set up to exactely how it is going to run, ride height, weights etc then set the castor by raising or lowering the rear mounts.
I'm sure this comment will get people commenting about them then being lower and getting caught up. For the amount of times this would happen I have found, is minimal. Chances are it would get then flatter leading to better roadhandling, etc.

Glen

[hosehustler]

Chatting to someone local who has done a similar Prado SAS and it looks as if there is a local blacksmith who has done several of them, he alters the radius arms, so that appears at this stage to be the option to explore.....this weeks challenge

I understand straightened arms are no longer certifiable. This may be worng however.
My thoughts for mine were to be to get the rear radius arms tacked into place, get the vehicle all set up to exactely how it is going to run, ride height, weights etc then set the castor by raising or lowering the rear mounts.
I'm sure this comment will get people commenting about them then being lower and getting caught up. For the amount of times this would happen I have found, is minimal. Chances are it would get then flatter leading to better roadhandling, etc.

Glen

Hi Glen you are right, I phoned the certifier today and it's impossiable without a lot of letters and red tape which our local foundary aren't inerested in doing, so that's no longer an option as they cannot be certified.
Chopping the swivel housing is a problem as the bottom spring retainers are in the way.
Another option is to chop off the radius arm mounts and rotate the whole housing, maybe the go.
Castor correction bushes I can do for under $150 and slightly longer rear mounts, so no decision yet
I did get some more work done on it, even took a pic....I had a free day, no plasma but got most of it done anyhow

[Engineer]

sweet, we're at the same stage basically lol
im hangn out for TG stuff though,time sure does drag on when youre excited

Ryan

[Bulletproof]

I understand straightened arms are no longer certifiable. This may be worng however.
My thoughts for mine were to be to get the rear radius arms tacked into place, get the vehicle all set up to exactely how it is going to run, ride height, weights etc then set the castor by raising or lowering the rear mounts.
I'm sure this comment will get people commenting about them then being lower and getting caught up. For the amount of times this would happen I have found, is minimal. Chances are it would get then flatter leading to better roadhandling, etc.

Glen

Hi Glen you are right, I phoned the certifier today and it's impossiable without a lot of letters and red tape which our local foundary aren't inerested in doing, so that's no longer an option as they cannot be certified.
Chopping the swivel housing is a problem as the bottom spring retainers are in the way.
Another option is to chop off the radius arm mounts and rotate the whole housing, maybe the go.
Castor correction bushes I can do for under $150 and slightly longer rear mounts,

Hi Tim
Personally I dont like off set caster bushes because they stop articulation especially if they are urethane ones.

If you have a look on one of the last pages of the hilux specs you will see my rear radius rod mounts are the same height as the gearbox cross member and they have never been a problem.On a nissan they are insde the chassis so mine are about 100mm lower . Lowering the rear end of the radius rods could mean the drive shaft is out of line with the gearbox. If you use the prado radius rods, lowering the back end could make the vulnerable because they go under the tie rod.

What I would do is set it all up with blocks and then make a decision because it is near impossible to picture all the things that may cause problems.

Cheers Richard

[hosehustler]

.

What I would do is set it all up with blocks and then make a decision because it is near impossible to picture all the things that may cause problems.

Cheers Richard

HI richard,
yeah thats what I think i'll do for now..........then decide

I agree totally on the correction bushes, I can remove the spring retainers, alter the swivel housings, the re-weld the spring retainers, this may be the "best" option.