Manukau Winch Challenge

[DieselBoy]

When you are actually on a competition 'stage' then you don't have any cover from either policy. Peter

So why then the requirement to be club affiliated for the resaons of NZFWDA insurance for the headlined competitive event? If the NZFWDA insurance doesnt cover ya, why the requirement?

I musta missed the boat somewhere here.

Thats what we are sitting here wondering aswell!!!!



Ok, so this 3rd party insurence we are required to have is not provided by NZ4WDA member ship??

So we seek such 3rd party insurence through other means, the Auckland 4WD Club being one source.

Who else provides such cover?? Where can i find out what is required to be covered in such a 3rd party policy in order for it to be suitable for this event??

If, for example, my vehicle was in fact road legal and i had 3rd party cover from say, AMI, then that would suffice???

[PeterVahry]

As I've tried to explain there are scenarios when a competitor may not be ' on a stage' and yet still cause damage. There's also the belief that if you are using the policy then you should be contributing to it. I'm not sure why people get concerned about the insurance so much when the annual cost can be less than a tank of fuel. There are the options as listed by Jeremy earlier that for a total of $78, or just $50 if you are already a NZFWDA member, can give everyone peace of mind and not just while competing but whenever you are taking part in a NZFWDA club organised event. ( we don't get any 'margin' on the policy payments either, they are at cost.)

I personally think that from an organisers view, the insurances should be a non-negotiable requirement of being part of an event.
I'm said enough on this now and continue to hope that we don't have to file a claim because a risk was not managed.

Have a great weekend.

[jeremy]

So why then the requirement to be club affiliated for the resaons of NZFWDA insurance for the headlined competitive event? If the NZFWDA insurance doesnt cover ya, why the requirement?

Hmm, too many details made things confusing I think Peter.

The way I see it is...

- You need the NZFWDA insurance to cover the event, so if your car catches fire and burns down the forest, the event organisers and host club are covered. Having all the competitors NZFWDA affiliated ensures this cover.

- The third party insurance, although it doesn't cover you while you're competing on a stage (at least the Auckland club policy doesn't, others may, but I doubt it), it still covers you at all other times during a competition, so driving in between stages, around camp etc. As an example, this makes sure you're covered if your handbrake fails and your car rolls into another.

Is that right Peter?

If, for example, my vehicle was in fact road legal and i had 3rd party cover from say, AMI, then that would suffice???

You got it.

Of course I'm just talking about the 4x4Challenges Winch Challenge rules, the Manukau guys might decide to add extra rule addendum's to change things as they see fit, but I'm sure Brent will fill us in if they do.

[BrentC]

From on high

Of course the simple thing to do would be a call to the organiser i.e. Nathan Phillips, I see his contact details are there, that would clear up everything.

Why does my vehicle have to be up to a warrant of fitness standard??

It does not say that, you forgot the “mechanical integrity” part

For memory, I think the rule says “WOF standard of mechanical integrity” it can be worded anyway you want I guess, but at the end of the day, we want to see that the wheels are not going to fall off. Personally I don’t care that you may have a welded steering joint, all I care about is that its functional, I.E. you don’t have to turn the steering wheel 2 turns before all the slack is taken up, cause if that happens you anit never going to get from scutineering to the stages, you will fall off the road, and if that happens there definitely will be an insurance claim (guaranteed) and all before we even start the event.

We also want to see that you have fully functional seat belts and that you are not sitting on a beer crate, that the battery is secured and that you don’t have 3 stud nuts holding a 6 stud wheel on, you must also be able to stop the thing, so we want you to have a brake pedal that you don’t have to pump 4 times as well , we don’t care that the left front head light might be a bit high. Or that you don’t have rear vision mirror.

Why does your navigator need to be a affiliated club member?

As stated before, under the rules, the co-pilot has the option of driving. No one can say that this will never happen in advance, there are any number of reasons why this could happen, plus insurance reasons

I think the fact that you truck is over 30 years old show how well built and safe it is - Dieselboy

Yeah, ok all vehicles will be required to be scrutineered except anything 30 years old and over.

That’ll work <- I would ignore that bit - I think he be tricking

[darinz]

It really isn't that hard! The rules are there to protect the organisers as much as the competitors. It isn't about stopping anyone from competing, it is about make it as safe as possible and making it fun. Of the guys that turned up to Whangarei there were non road legal trucks and there was no problem. They had the Auckland club Insurance cover which is perfect for this purpose and very very cheap.
I think people get way to wound up about it. Don't panic just talk to the organiser and they'll point you in the right direction really quick. The key though is to talk to them directly ie by phone, as it can be difficult to grasp exactly what is required.
The club class is about inclusion so it is trying to let as many as possible have a go as cheap as possible. That doesn't mean free for all, so a line has to be drawn somewhere but it can be pretty vague at times.

Within the rules you can build and race pretty much anything you want. Have you seen what some of us are racing that are road legal etc?
The requirements to be affiliated and have 3rd party insurance are pretty simple. The person who is getting off there arse and making the event possible for you, feels that this is needed to run an event. They are from a club and have certain rules they have to operate within to keep the support of the club etc etc. Without complying with these things then THERE WILL BE NO COMPETITION!
Removing the WOF requirements is a calculated risk as it does put a lot more responsibility on the organiser. In Whangarei I said WOF standard as it is a level that people understand. What it was reffering to are things like ball joints, brakes working, rust etc. It isn't about illegal mods, mud guards covering tyres etc etc.
To be perfectly honest, the more someone complains about it the harder I would be checking their truck as it means either they don't understand or are trying to hide something.

The rules are there and have been developed over many years. Every rule has a reason and has been developed because of need. Many of the rules have been brought in because of driver requests so in a lot of cases if you are questioning them it will be because of lack of understanding of what really happens in a competition. ie steel or ali roof to stop a stick stabbibg you when you rollover! You must remember that you are competing in a sport where it is against a stop watch so the idea is to go as fast as you can. Trials and Laurie Sansons are not about speed they are about technique etc. The focus is quite different (not beter or worst just different) so the rules accordingly are different.
I have a better understanding of the rules than most and are more than happy to discuss ANY rule with anyone. Some seem very stupid until you understand where it came from and why. As a competitor I don't want unnecassary rules and at different times in the past few years we have really pulled them apart. The simple fact is the rules are really the bare minimum.

Ultimately everyone will not be happy. That is life but these rules and the club class concept have been developed to include most people and keep most happy and to keep people alive!
I'm serious about talking to me about rules or whether your truck is legal etc etc.
My home number is 09 436 1992
Darin

[Madaz]

So theres no issues with beadlock wheels not having 36 bolts in them then?

[DieselBoy]

Cheers Darin, Jeremy and Peter, its making more sense now.

I can now see the distinct difference between the NZ4WDA cover and the 3rd party cover, and have a better feel for the kind of vehicle standards required in the club class.

Like i said, i have never had anything to do with winch challenges before, and is much the same for other people i know who are interested, which i expect will be the same for the majority of the club class entrants you will get over the coming years.

I can now go back to them with some answers for the questions we had

There will be lots of questions of this nature you guys will have to explain to us as things develope

[jeremy]

Thanks for asking DB and XJ - these sort of questions either help us realise why the rules we're so used too are the way they are, or realise that something needs to be changed. And I'm sure there will probably be others wondering the same things who now have some stuff to read to hopefully make things make sense.

[wopass]

WOF=check
REG=check
insurance=check
truck ready to go...

me on the other hand.... we shall see, its not looking promising

whens the cut off for entrys ?

[BrentC]

whens the cut off for entrys ?

Yesterday




Oop's - meant to say - Close off for entry is 17 October 2008

[xj]

Thanks for asking DB and XJ - these sort of questions either help us realise why the rules we're so used too are the way they are, or realise that something needs to be changed. And I'm sure there will probably be others wondering the same things who now have some stuff to read to hopefully make things make sense.

We probably need an "insurance" thread for all this.... but here goes anyway.

Seeing as how those of us who are in NZFWDA afilliated clubs pay into the insurance by way of our membership fees, where can I find a copy of the insurance policy details? If theres a company underwriting the NZFWDA, and the members are paying into that premium by way of a % of our memberships there must be policy detail around for our perusal, to see the details of what it is we are paying for.
Not a major issue, just curious.

[PeterVahry]

Send a request to the NZFWDA secretary for information about the policy. Please quote your membership number. The NZFWDA only has a summary, to my knowledge, for the 08/09 year. Much of that is included on the NZFWDA website.
http://www.nzfwda.org.nz/membership/insurance/

[xj]

email sent, thank you Peter.

[BrentC]

So theres no issues with beadlock wheels not having 36 bolts in them then?

From on High

No issues at all with your beadlocs

We could have sat down and listed every mechanical part along with an explanation alongside, but that’s impractical, and I’m sure you would agree. With the written word, I don’t know how to be plainer. This is a competition for the average club/bush truck. To use the 4x4 challenge rules, we had to have the supplementary rules to allow this to happen, the supplementary rules negate you having to be certified, WOF or/and road registered. At the same time there still has to be some sort of standard, which is why “mechanical integrity” was added.

If you or anyone else for that matter, have any questions about your trucks eligibility give me a ring, but I’ll tell you now, if your truck resembles a 4 wheel drive, has a winch, is mechanically sound, and you comply with the supplementary rules, I can all but guarantee you will be fine

Bernie 0274 917605

[DieselBoy]

Bernies da man!!!!!

So i will be sweet to do my best to burn out my Runva and all its spare motors

My last two questions, i promise :

My truck doesn't have doors, nor was it ever designed to have any (Its best described as a copy of a Jeep CJ4 body shell, and they didn't get doors), I gather that'l be ok??

I have a soft top that covers my roll cage, will i be ok with that or do i need to remove the soft top and go and get a $$$alloy$$$ plate made up to go over the top????

That, and i/we gotta get the auckland 4x4 insurance as well.

I guess where i'm comin from is that me and a couple of others are keen as, and want to show up all prepped and ready to go, as opposed to having any drama's with anything on the day

Cheers for the feed back so far, i'm feeling educated

[4WDbits]

So theres no issues with beadlock wheels not having 36 bolts in them then?

From on High

No issues at all with your beadlocs

We could have sat down and listed every mechanical part along with an explanation alongside, but that’s impractical, and I’m sure you would agree. With the written word, I don’t know how to be plainer. This is a competition for the average club/bush truck. To use the 4x4 challenge rules, we had to have the supplementary rules to allow this to happen, the supplementary rules negate you having to be certified, WOF or/and road registered. At the same time there still has to be some sort of standard, which is why “mechanical integrity” was added.

If you or anyone else for that matter, have any questions about your trucks eligibility give me a ring, but I’ll tell you now, if your truck resembles a 4 wheel drive, has a winch, is mechanically sound, and you comply with the supplementary rules, I can all but guarantee you will be fine

Bernie 0274 917605

36 bolt beadlocks are required to meet the level of mechanical integrity required for a WOF, re supplement rule 2:

2: WOF not required, but must be up to WOF standard of mechanical integrity

[BrentC]

Bernies da man!!!!!

So i will be sweet to do my best to burn out my Runva and all its spare motors

My last two questions, i promise :

Give him a call, ask your questions and report back here - I am starting to feel like a winchers pimp - many more questions and the questioner will get extra points on the section I am Marshalling

[BrentC]

36 bolt beadlocks are required to meet the level of mechanical integrity required for a WOF, re supplement rule 2:

2: WOF not required, but must be up to WOF standard of mechanical integrity

Fortunately

This is a competition for the average club/bush truck.

and the scrutineer is an experienced Winch Competitor and an exceptional engineer - I trust him to make any appropriate decisions

[DieselBoy]

Thats a can of worms there isn't it.

If you take beadlocks to the letter of the law, then cut and welded steering links, braded brake lines, wheels out side the flares, brake conversions, sloppy rose joints, ball joints that are worn but still perfectly sound, and all sorts of stuff tht would normaly have to be certed for a WOF would leave 99.9% of us club class guys at home watchin TV.

I take it from Bernies comment, that for club class if your trucks safe and sound, and meets the minimum and sensible safety requirements then you can run, they aren't going to be picky on technicalities such as doors and bead locks.

Thats just the impression i am getting for the club class, I have no idea about the full Challenge Class

[xj]

Brent, we're only asking all these questions 'cause we want your avatar to depict your reality!

[4WDbits]

Thats a can of worms there isn't it.

If you take beadlocks to the letter of the law, then cut and welded steering links, braded brake lines, wheels out side the flares, brake conversions, sloppy rose joints, ball joints that are worn but still perfectly sound, and all sorts of stuff tht would normaly have to be certed for a WOF would leave 99.9% of us club class guys at home watchin TV.

I take it from Bernies comment, that for club class if your trucks safe and sound, and meets the minimum and sensible safety requirements then you can run, they aren't going to be picky on technicalities such as doors and bead locks.

Thats just the impression i am getting for the club class, I have no idea about the full Challenge Class

I think everyone wants the interpretation of the rules and how stringently they will be applied. Winch comps are often dominated by rule interpretation, although Darin seems to have that sorted. Just waiting for him to get the results interpretation right

[BrentC]

Brent, we're only asking all these questions 'cause we want your avatar to depict your reality!

Man - I hope your jollopy lasts long enough to come through my section

[BrentC]

I think everyone wants the interpretation of the rules and how stringently they will be applied.

from above

If you or anyone else for that matter, have any questions about your trucks eligibility give me a ring, but I’ll tell you now, if your truck resembles a 4 wheel drive, has a winch, is mechanically sound, and you comply with the supplementary rules, I can all but guarantee you will be fine

[xj]

Brent, we're only asking all these questions 'cause we want your avatar to depict your reality!

Man - I hope your jollopy lasts long enough to come through my section

LOL, it doesnt comply to the rules in regards to the ali or steel head cover required for soft-tops. Hence, i shant be attending. Well, might have to come and have a shuftie though.

[BrentC]

Brent, we're only asking all these questions 'cause we want your avatar to depict your reality!

Man - I hope your jollopy lasts long enough to come through my section

LOL, it doesnt comply to the rules in regards to the ali or steel head cover required for soft-tops. Hence, i shant be attending. Well, might have to come and have a shuftie though.

I have a couple of old washing machine bodies that you can cut up and velcro to your roll bar

[Jafa]

Brent, we're only asking all these questions 'cause we want your avatar to depict your reality!

Man - I hope your jollopy lasts long enough to come through my section

Jollopy

[xj]

oi, thats enough from you jafa!!

Jallopy.... kinda reminds me of the wacky racers...... muttley etc......

[Jafa]

not takin the piss XJ, just like the sound of the word I might call my hilux that...."Jafa's Jalopy"

[xj]

"Jaffaloppy"

[Madaz]

Just a question about the night stages: are we going to benefit greatly if we all have auxillary lighting, or will 2 headlights and a dolphin torch suffice?

Cheers