Just Another Winch Thread

[DieselBoy]

Its been a while since i have asked a genuine question on the forum!!!!!!

As some of you have no doubt gathered, i am busy setting ThunderGuts up for the club class winch comps.

Getting the truck itself ready is no problem

Appart from the winch......................

I currently have a EWX12,000lb Runva, which is fine as a bush back up winch for the times you do something stupid and get ya self properly stuck.

Not much good for competition though, where it would see sustained long hard pulls and if the winch craps out, thats it, end of the weekend and competition for me.

I have surfed and surfed over the last few weeks and decided that to set up an electric winch properly, such as a Superwinch EPi 9000, i would be looking at say $2000 for the winch, $800 for two Optima deep cycle batteries and $300 for a high output alternator to fit the Chev.

Probably not much change out of $3500 realisticaly.

No matter what i do with an electric winch, i still need the dual deep cycle batteries and the high output alternator, and if i want a good strong winch, you gotta hand over the $$$$$.

So that begs the question:

Do i look into a Hydraulic Winch????

I have a dissused PTO output off the transfercase that can't be used for a PTO winch unfortunatly.I wonder could i use it to drive a hydraulic pump for a winch??

So for the guru winch challenge guys, or even just people in the know, whats the deal with setting up a hydraulic winch??

My questions are:

What brand and modle of hydraulic winch would be a reasonable entry level unit??

How is the best way to power the winch?? (extra power steer pump or PTO driven pump)

What generally comes with the winch??(its hard to say, but superwinch doesn't look like they supply anything other than the winch)

Who would you go and see to enquire about and get pumps, plumbing, valve blocks, coolers and tanks??

Are there any manufacturers that do a kit with their winch, complete with pump and controls etc etc.

Lots a questions, but i realy don't know where to start

[mudzilla]

..

[vvega]

Who would you go and see to enquire about and get pumps, plumbing, valve blocks, coolers and tanks??

Are there any manufacturers that do a kit with their winch, complete with pump and controls etc etc.

Lots a questions, but i realy don't know where to start

you can come see me
this is what i do for a job
but best guess is about 1200 bucks for the pump mounted(good size pump to get some speed out of ya winch... providing you have the pto output etc
im guessing the valving will come with the winch if not about another 2-300 for a valve bank ... depending on how trick you want it .. if you have a air supply onboard for for remote actuation of the spools or if you have to have direct or electrical acutuation

pump size is a relative hp deal need to have enough hp to drive the pump... to bigger flow and your pump will stall or you will lunch your interlinks

basically find the winch you want and i can help you with the rest :d

i think all and all it would be similar money to your electric winch setup


wayne

[vvega]

oh ill be down the workshop tonight finishing my truck
116 ellis street 021 2568452 07 8471514 come down for a natter if ya want

[DieselBoy]

Hey yeah, just seen your post, and its made your PM make sense now

I'm busy tonight getting the truck ready for an event on sunday, but will save ya number in my phone and come round and catch up next wek if thats all right

Cheers

Now, so what Hydraulic winches are proving popular these days???

Something like this??
http://www.superwinch.com/HP_8-10_Series.html about $3320

http://www.ramsey.com/tnr/rph_10000.html about $2150

Why is the Ramsey $1000 cheaper than the Superwinch?? The speeds aren't that different. Build quality??

[monstr]

All the comp guys that i know of are useing the 8000lb Superwinch ,some of them are well in excess of 300fpm ..

[vvega]

dunno exactly how they brake them .. from what ive been told the super winch can run nylon rope ? because the break is separate to the drum

though in saying that ... its hydraulic... just bled off pressure and no heat generated

next week is no worries if you pop into work talk to craig (hes the hydraulic's guru) hell be happy to tell you what you need INC install costs if you want that done if your handy with engineering hell just tell you what you need to do and get you the bits you need :d
see ya down there

[vvega]

on specs the ramsey looks better
takes a higher pressure faster feed rates etc
but superwinch is good and its bling dunno if thats worth a grand though

[wopass]

better yet, flag it and just use it for trials and bush trips and be my navi i have a good working winch

[DieselBoy]

Can you hear Sarah yellin at you from where you are??

[wopass]

Can you hear Sarah yellin at you from where you are??

Bwahahahahahha

[darinz]

The cheapest hydraulic winches that are working properly are costing way more than $3500 if you pay for everything. Try $6k as a starter.

For an electric winch it is simple, DO NOT under any circumstances use a standard deep cycle battery. You will kill it very quickly. The Optima batteries will last but they don't supply enough power for a comp truck unless you run about 4 off them. What you want is a very large starting battery as a winch is effectively a starter motor. A deep cycle can only be re-charged slowly or it effects the life.
For a comp truck winch you are far better off to buy either a second hand Warn 8274 or get a 9500lb winch eg Warn XP9500, Come-up or similar as they run a bigger motor and faster speeds. An EP9 is a good back up winch or club winch but is too slow for comps.
So to set up a good RELIABLE comp. electric winch you need.
8274 (or 9500 if going high speed low mount like the top Oz guys are now using)
either 6hp Warn motor for 12v or 7.8hp Superduty if 24v ($600 to $1000 each)
2 big batteries at about $3-$400 each!
bigger battery cable, buy from BOC gases 95mm welding cable is the best. Double insulated etc.
big kill switch at $120 each
Alternator, maybe. I ran for several years with a single 7.8hp Superduty and the standard GQ 35amp alternator. But good batteries. The only time I had a problem was when the alterntor got full of mud. Not a problem now as I run a sealed alternator and a level type Delco alternator that doesn't get effected by mud.
Twin motor adapter if you want reliablity and strength (doesn't give speed but does give power)

If you are really serious thn just write me a check and I'll build a system the same as mine for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For Hydraulic, how are you going to get the power you need to get the performance you are expecting. A well set up hydraulic winch that is fast and strong will take shit loads of hp to run and will cost big dollars to get reliable. There is a reason not many go hydraulic and it is price, otherwise everyone with a PTO would just through a cheap hydraulic setup on (that you can get) but in real world the pto is stronger and as relaible.

Would I use a hydraulic winch? Yes but what I would want out of it to make it worth ditching what I have, will cost well over $10k. But that would give me 300ft per minute and about 15k lbs pull and have about 80 meters of rope. It would have some sort of hydrostatic drive so that you could have variable speed. This sort of thing has been talked about by a lot of guys for quite a while but even the really big dollar winches haven't got it right yet. Fast and strong but no finess so they get compromised in a techical winch. And guess what, the track setters are now setting stages that will disadvantage hydraulic winches and favour an electric!!!!

Also hydraulics are heavy!!!
Electrics aren't bad but the batteries can be a bit. Mine are 35kgs each. (2)
PTO's are the lightest but can be a unreliable under heavy load.
PTO's are also cheap to set up so this is a list is in order of cost and wieght.

The perfect winch would be a Hydraulic with the weight of a PTO and the controllability and simplicity of an electric.

So there is no perfect winch

[jeremy]

I run a sealed alternator and a level type Delco alternator that doesn't get effected by mud.

Very interested to hear more about this sealed alternator your run Darin!! (If you don't mind sharing your secrets)

[swampa]

thanks for that, clear, precise, and to the point.

[wisard2]

I run a sealed alternator and a level type Delco alternator that doesn't get effected by mud.

Very interested to hear more about this sealed alternator your run Darin!! (If you don't mind sharing your secrets)

X2

[vvega]

i dont know a lot about 4wding
BUT i do know that engineering and hydraulics ... pto winches are not stronger and they have more driven loss than a hydraulic system
hydralics are 100% reliable proving they are setup well in the first place
and you can buy off the shelf varible flow pumps
as for cost .. send me a list of the bits you want and ill price them for you.. sounds like your getting a bum deal

you make some good points with track makers and its important to have the right setup for the right application and that by itself is good reason to look at electric

just tring to help not offend

[DieselBoy]

I have been round to my friendly local Auto Sparky to pick his brains on electric winch's aswell.

From his experience, admittedly based purely on doing what customers had requested and finding solutions to the problems their requests had posed, was that batteries are the key. He seemed to think that a good compromise was a big starting battery and a marine type deep cycle, with out a voltage sensing charge requlator.

His logic was that, as Darin said, a winch is basically a starter motor, so you need a big staring battery with the high CCA or MCA, plus a Marine type deep cycle, that wil handle the quicker charging than a proper deep cycle will (catch being it won't be able to be run as flat as a proper deep cycle), but basically the big starting battery will handle the majority of the work with the deep cycle there proping it up and allowing you to have the reserve capacity to keep the engine running electric alive under heavy conditions.

That, and he's tracking me down a cheap high output Alt thats a direct bolt on replacement for the Chev.

So I'm going to run with what i have plus the improved electrical equipment, watch and see what others are running and take it from there.

Mike is also getting me another motor as a spare

[Madaz]

Nah, buy a hydraulic - You know you want it

[mercutio]

have a friendly chat to yorick he has almost everything you need in his shed

[vvega]

Nah, buy a hydraulic - You know you want it

hey mate
hows ya truck ?

[Madaz]

Nah, buy a hydraulic - You know you want it

hey mate
hows ya truck ?

Hi there, trucks going o.k.
Hydraulic winch seem to go good too , probaly not as good as the competion ones, cause i only spent about $4.5 k on mine, but it will have to suffice for now.
Theres too many myths floating around about hydraulic winches when really its just not that difficult

[suzolla]

Hi Madaz,

What sort of pump are you using and how are you driving it.

Thanks
Tim

[darinz]

i dont know a lot about 4wding
BUT i do know that engineering and hydraulics ... pto winches are not stronger and they have more driven loss than a hydraulic system
hydralics are 100% reliable proving they are setup well in the first place
and you can buy off the shelf varible flow pumps
as for cost .. send me a list of the bits you want and ill price them for you.. sounds like your getting a bum deal

you make some good points with track makers and its important to have the right setup for the right application and that by itself is good reason to look at electric

just tring to help not offend

No offence taken or intended and I don't question what you are saying.
And if you can setup a cheap hydraulic system that works then you'll make a killing as no one has been able to yet!!
I agree with what you say about PTO vs Hydraulics etc, there is no question about it.
But here is a couple of questions for you.
If I want the winch to run at 1000rpm (engine speed) have peak power at 2000rpm and still be able to run at 3000rpm and the engine also run to 7500rpm, how would you suggest that this is achieved? And this is required to be crank driven as there is no PTO. From what I worked out it needs at least 50hp to drive it, but I was working on 70hp.
Also we need to be able to creep the winch to take up the load and sometimes you want max torque with low speed!
We also want to be able run it for extended duration but don't want to carry 2x the oil flow in a tank. From the calcs I've looked at to get the speed and power we want you need a flow over around 60 to 120 l per min and around 2000 psi to 3000 psi to get the torque. I'm not sure of motor and pump sizes of the top of my head sorry.

From what I've figured out, alot of the principle used for normal hydraulic systems don't seem to apply and some very smart hydraulic guys have gotten this wrong.

[darinz]

I have been round to my friendly local Auto Sparky to pick his brains on electric winch's aswell.

From his experience, admittedly based purely on doing what customers had requested and finding solutions to the problems their requests had posed, was that batteries are the key. He seemed to think that a good compromise was a big starting battery and a marine type deep cycle, with out a voltage sensing charge requlator.

His logic was that, as Darin said, a winch is basically a starter motor, so you need a big staring battery with the high CCA or MCA, plus a Marine type deep cycle, that wil handle the quicker charging than a proper deep cycle will (catch being it won't be able to be run as flat as a proper deep cycle), but basically the big starting battery will handle the majority of the work with the deep cycle there proping it up and allowing you to have the reserve capacity to keep the engine running electric alive under heavy conditions.

That, and he's tracking me down a cheap high output Alt thats a direct bolt on replacement for the Chev.

So I'm going to run with what i have plus the improved electrical equipment, watch and see what others are running and take it from there.

Mike is also getting me another motor as a spare

I don't have many secrets on my truck and if you want to have a good look at what I'm running them feel free to have a good look. The bits that are secret you can't see anyway!!!
As an idea I have a seperate 12v and 24v systems. The 12v runs the truck and everything but the winch. The winch is 24v with seperate batteries and alternator.

12v is a single 1000cca sealed lead acid battery with 180 min reserve capacity. It is a large reserve starting battery. This is powered by 110amp 12v alternator. This has sealed brushes and is the factory alternator for my motor!
The 24v system has 2 x 25 plate sealed lead acid batteries. These are 925cca with a 240 min reserve capacity and are 35kgs each. They are 2kgs heavier (each) that the equivilant Odassey batteries but are about 1/4 the price! These are charged by and old fashion Delco alternator that has the brushes on a lever so can't be clogged with mud. This is 24v 70amp and is about $350 of the shelf at Repco!
After Rotorua I stripped both alternators, did nothing and put them back together! They were both in pefect working order and had no mud etc in anything important.

In my experience for winch challenges you want 2 big starting batteries. Deep cycle are for club trucks etc that run occasionally and they will not recharge quick enough to handle competition conditions. There is a formula to what a deep cycle can accept. I think it is a max of 20% of the amp hour rating (or something like that). I spent a lot of time working all this out with Century Batteries (also a sponsor) before we decided what batteries to run in my truck.

You are completely right when you say batteries are a key to winching but they are only part of it. You also must have good charging to keep the batteries up to power and massive cable. This basically can't be to big. If you are using the cable supplied with the winch (any winch any brand) then it is too small for competition purposes. Also you need to ensure all contections are don't correctly. All of mine are crimped, soldered and sealed. The terminals are all filed flat and have electrical grease applied to them. It is then really important that they are tight. My burnt out motor and fire in Rotorua are what happens if you have a loose terminal!!!!!

Also solenoids. I use Come-Up solenoids. Standard everyday ones that are supplied with their winches. There is nothing flash about them and I've had one fail in 4 years. This was due to water as well. I have always keep them inside the cab to keep them clean. I also run one set per motor.

So a well set up electric winch is not as fast and not as strong as a PTO or hydraulic winch, no arguement about it BUT they are more vesitile, easier on technical winches and extremely reliable. Don't get me wrong about PTO and hydraulic, they are both very good winch types with their strengths and I have plenty of ideas on how they can be made to work and I'll end up with one of them in the future but I will always keep an electric winch as they have some great advantage in SOME circumstances.

So what the winch is isn't as important as the setup!!! (to a point)

[vvega]

cheers mate ill sit down later and work out some figures for you
from what ive seen though 1500-2000 psi is max working load on the winches ... have you got some links to the winches you consider to be decent... save me comming to you with somethign un satasfactory

also biggest advantage of a electric winch
they work when your cars upside down or on its side
pritty much a reason to have one even if you have a hydro one

[vvega]

i dont know a lot about 4wding
BUT i do know that engineering and hydraulics ... pto winches are not stronger and they have more driven loss than a hydraulic system
hydralics are 100% reliable proving they are setup well in the first place
and you can buy off the shelf varible flow pumps
as for cost .. send me a list of the bits you want and ill price them for you.. sounds like your getting a bum deal

you make some good points with track makers and its important to have the right setup for the right application and that by itself is good reason to look at electric

just tring to help not offend

No offence taken or intended and I don't question what you are saying.
And if you can setup a cheap hydraulic system that works then you'll make a killing as no one has been able to yet!!
I agree with what you say about PTO vs Hydraulics etc, there is no question about it.
But here is a couple of questions for you.
If I want the winch to run at 1000rpm (engine speed) have peak power at 2000rpm and still be able to run at 3000rpm and the engine also run to 7500rpm, how would you suggest that this is achieved? And this is required to be crank driven as there is no PTO. From what I worked out it needs at least 50hp to drive it, but I was working on 70hp.
Also we need to be able to creep the winch to take up the load and sometimes you want max torque with low speed!
We also want to be able run it for extended duration but don't want to carry 2x the oil flow in a tank. From the calcs I've looked at to get the speed and power we want you need a flow over around 60 to 120 l per min and around 2000 psi to 3000 psi to get the torque. I'm not sure of motor and pump sizes of the top of my head sorry.

From what I've figured out, alot of the principle used for normal hydraulic systems don't seem to apply and some very smart hydraulic guys have gotten this wrong.

ifr a 80cc winch..15,000punder
to get 60 liters a minuite of flow 7500rpm @ 2000 psi (winch max)
you need 14.5hp to drive it

now granted as you slow the engine down your fpm rate will drop ... but @60 liters a minuite you will be fair rocketing along at about 400 fpm
you will still have 2000 osi avalible at 1000 rpm yuol just wont have 60 liters per min and to get 60 liters per min you really need 3/4 inch hose
this pumps is worth about 400 bucks the winch is a 15000 pound one from 4x4 fibreglass and worth about 2300 and comes with the valve bank switch's a flow divider but no relief valve (your ps pump will have one) but in our case you would need to buy one with a block for about 170 bucks

then just any extra hosing and the cost of mounting the pump and winch

...... they can also be run off your p/s pump .... but again you will have the pressure .... but not 60 liters per min

the motor on the winch is a danfos one so it is high quality.(but it could be a chinese copy....) but in saying that you could get a direct fit danfoss one off the shelf if your skeptical
if you did want to run 60 liters per min you would need about a 10 liter reserve and a decent high flow oil cooler and fan

pump rotation is not a issue though you may want a on off coupling so your not running it all the time


there is another option
throw away your diffs and put hydraulic motors on all your wheels .... use a decent motor and pump and run everything hydraulicl

but thats another topic
hop that helps

wayne

[DieselBoy]

Now that was a post worth reading Wayne, awesome stuff

At a guess, how many liters per minute would your average run of the mill 4WD power steer pump flow????

[swampa]

donald p was running his hydraulic winch off the crank and it hauls, but it kept stalling his vehicle, so they had to supercharge it just to stop it from stalling,( as has been said, a fast hydraulic setup off the crank, sucks a massive amount of juice) powersteering pump would be ok for the weekend warrior but not for a comp, as a sidepoint i was reading on another forum warn wont cover under warranty their bigger winches if a synthetic rope is used as it will crush the drum on the odd occasion

[NJV6]

Diahatsu using every last drop of power to run the winch....

[vvega]

sounds a bit like the pump was sized wrong
at idle you shouldnt consume more than 2-3 hp its a bit of a generic statement but p's pumps can flow up to 20 llpm @5000 is rpm
and most are presure limited to 1500 psi and draw about 2-3 hp
if you wanted to get into a hydro winch its a eazy alternative
crank driven is a good idea because your input power is only limited to what you can deliver out the front of your crank
wghere as when you really start getting into bigger pumps on pto's they can then draw a lot of power and could eat your pto setup

dont fall into the trap of thinking you need low down poer to run a pump ... hp is a fuction of both tourqe and rpm

its hard to explain to people but ... the more rpm you have at your disposal ... the less power yout pump will take to drive for a given flow and preasure ... becaue its the hp driving the pump
at a lower rpm you will need more tourqe and thus more powered for the right sized pump for that application

UNLESS you get a pump with a swashplate (there a bit expensive) they can vary the cc's of the chambers and thus altering the nature of the pump

yeah prolly dont need to hear all that

sorry for the spelling... spell checker is having a day off