Just Another Winch Thread

Garage talk. Anything from mounting a winch to water proofing the electrics.
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Madaz
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by Madaz »

DieselBoy wrote:So this is all very interesting so far.

I would like to take it back a peg, and look at it from a different angle.

The reason why i would like a hydro winch is due to the fact that it can run on a system independant of any other vehicle systems.

For example your electric winch relys on your vehicles electrical system to operate, and any fault in either has an effect on the other. We all know that the electrical system is the weakest link in a vehicle.

So Hydro winch for reliability is my thoughts.

For club class stuff, its no different to needing a good strong reliable winch for doing hardcore bush trips.

Thats the kind of Hydro winch i would like to set up. One thats not necceserily fast, but will keep going all day at a steady pace, with minimal fuss and issues.

It sounds to me like the P/S pump systems are good in that they don't flow huge quantities of oil and are going to be slow, but are able to be run connected to the engine all of the time with out cooking the oil. No need for the fancy clutches that we were all talking about earlier.

So you could set your self up with a big P/S pump, a couple of litres resivour, good oil cooler and a half decent winch, infact even a cheapy winch like VVega was talking about, especially if they run a Danfos replica motor, thats easy replacements. Other wise one of the Ramsey winches would be fine.

That would give you a simple hydro winch, that although not super fast, is fast enough, and would be simple and reliable and leave the vehicles electrical system alone so it can concentrate on keeping the motor running ??


Someone worth talking to would be Marcel from Mamaku 4x4, i know that he had been fitting and tinkering with Milemarker winches for club style use, as far as I know he was having pretty good sucess, also Jafas thread on fitting one to a suzuki was a pretty good example of a good ,easy to fit setup - that performed well.
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by vvega »

anything p/s powered will under preform .. they lack the flow to reach the winches full potential.
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DieselBoy
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by DieselBoy »

So it will underperform, but by how much i wonder. Would it be slower than a standard low mount electric??

If you where to say run a P/S pump, perhaps a chev pump that has a good flow rate compared to ya average Jappa pump, and it was dedicated to just running the winch, how would that perform???

I guess to answer that we would need to know some spec's on the pump, like flow rate and pressure.
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mercutio
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by mercutio »

go and hassle yorick he has a spare pump or 7 lying around :lol: :lol: :lol:
my 4wd is not a truck

old mercedes never die but sometimes they do need some love

older cars are good,mercedes are better,older mercedes are the best
vvega
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by vvega »

DieselBoy wrote:So it will underperform, but by how much i wonder. Would it be slower than a standard low mount electric??

If you where to say run a P/S pump, perhaps a chev pump that has a good flow rate compared to ya average Jappa pump, and it was dedicated to just running the winch, how would that perform???

I guess to answer that we would need to know some spec's on the pump, like flow rate and pressure.

chev ones do have one of the higher flow rates at a controlled 11 Lpm
toyota's have a controlled 5 Lpm

the motor can take 60-70 -Lpm

the differance can be worked out but a % as its fixed displacemet

say max is 100 Lpm and you supply 10 ... your motor will spin at 10% of its rated max speed
so your getting 1/10 of the line speed your capible off

HOWEVER you can remove the flow control your japper and get a little more flow... perhaps .. 15Lpm ..BUT you will need to mod it with bigger pots bigger suction port bigger res and a cooler because it will get a LOT hotter

i am looking at a agricultural P/S pum that will do 30 Lpm but the cost is a bit off putting( they have a no fault tolerance)
couple of truck ones that will do 15
hope that helps
source for p/s flow rates
: http://steeringpump.diytrade.com/sdp/818341/4/pd/4804682.html
online source for hydraulic pumps and motors
www.hyspecs.co.nz
grab the privelist pdf has a fair bit of info ... bear in mind its a very small crossection of whats avalible
and its the low end of the quality scale
Last edited by vvega on Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by vvega »

milmarker 12000 pound winch


motor - Saur Danfoss DH315
Disp - 306ccm (18.75cu in)
Max speed - 200 (245int)
Flow - 60l/min (16gal/min)
75l/min (20gal/min)
Max inlet pressure - 2000psi (2500psi int)

superwinch
H8P
Maximum Oil Pressure
1,800 psi
126 bar (1,850 psi
Maximum Oil Flow
15gpm (57 l/min.)
57 l/min.

Line Speed, Bottom Layer, No Load
40'/min. (12.19m/min.)



H10P
Maximum Oil Pressure
1,700 psi
116 bar (1,700 psi)
Maximum Oil Flow
15gpm (57 l/min.)
57 l/min.

Line Speed, Bottom Layer, No Load
30'/min. (9.14m/min.)
8.8m/min.


so for example
h10p will get about 2 meters a min instead of 8 ... but it wont slow down under load on ethier figure unless you go above max presure....and that will be above max rated pull on that layer

hope that helps
Last edited by vvega on Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by Ben »

darinz wrote: So I have a 3.5" drum that I want at least 5000kgs pull at the drum. Line speed of at least 40m/min at the drum.


Its actually pretty easy to calculate the power required to move your truck at a certain speed and line pull. The formula is:

P=F*V

Where P = power, F = Force (in Newtons), and V = velocity (in meters per second).

To get force in newtons from kg's times by 9.8.

So Force = 9.8*5000 = 49000 N

Velocity = 40 / 60 seconds to get meters per second = 0.666 m/s

So the power required at the rope = 49000 * 0.66 = 32340 W or 32 kilowatts or 43 horsepower.

Thats the power at the rope, so you need to add quite a bit for losses in the hydraulic system - probably about double that at the crank I would guess.

I think the only way to go with a hydraulic winch setup to get all the fine control, finesse and speed control you need, plus allow your engine to be reving at whatever speed you require would be to run a variable displacement pump with an in cab variable flow control valve. This way you are only sucking the power you need to actually drive the winch from the motor and aren't wasting a whole lot through the relief valve, plus you can control the winch speed from much slower to faster than the wheel speed.

I think its the fixed displacements pumps that make them hard to control, and horribly inefficient (eg stalling the engine) when it comes to getting moving in a high load pull.

Ben
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by vvega »

exactly as above
ben for danz setup i am looking at a hydrostaic drive pump and a variable motor
the calcs for power requirement is eazy matching the pump motor and a decent price is hard
theres about 15
15% loss in a hydro setup where as a fixed displacement can be up to 50% as said above

the main problem with varible displacement is cost .. they start at about 1800 dollars

as for fixed displavement contol.. you can fit a flow divider valve in there , but they do make a bit of heat
you can also get "soft start" in your valving to lesson the nastyness
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wopass
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by wopass »

yeap...that settles it for me!!!

gonna stick to my PTO !

line speed = gear x rpm = % shaft@box = pull me outa the mud :lol:
If you already know everything, DON'T ask bloody questions!!
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mudzilla
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by mudzilla »

wopass wrote:yeap...that settles it for me!!!

gonna stick to my PTO !

line speed = gear x rpm = % shaft@box = pull me outa the mud :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol:
36" Simex's is as close as I get to gardening

01' GMC Duramax 6.6 Turbo V8 Diesel ,,, 95' HiLux Winch truck ..
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by vvega »

lol your dead right its a really simple system and it works really well .. just i dont have a pto option ...sux to be me :D
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Jafa
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by Jafa »

The Milemarker I have on my zook works really well, its setup bone stock as MM intended, it uses a ps pump which is a Saginaw, ie, chev, ford etc at 5gpm @1500 psi. 6ft / min on slow speed ( 12000lbs pull) and 35ft/min on fast speed (2000lbs pull). Its not fast, but about the same as a low mount electric. I have winched myself in high gear quite often, i can get away with it in the zook because its so light. The best thing about this setup is it works perfectly all day everyday, not alt, batteries current draw, solenoids or any of that crap to worry about. Its waterproof, pulls like a schoolboy and is light. When I transfer it toi my Hilux, I'll put a bigger pump in and control gear to get a little more speed out of it. Basically the winch is capable of a lot more speed, but the valve block and pump are holding it back. Al, that said though, its perfect for a club truck, but it aint no competition winch.
'85 Hilux crawler, 3rz, duals, 4.7's, 4.88's, ARB's, 30 spline Longfields, 6 stud SNR4x4 Histeer, Airshocks up front, coiled rear, 40" Iroks.
^^^this shite is all about to change....^^^

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DieselBoy
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by DieselBoy »

Jafa wrote:The Milemarker I have on my zook works really well, its setup bone stock as MM intended, it uses a ps pump which is a Saginaw, ie, chev, ford etc at 5gpm @1500 psi. 6ft / min on slow speed ( 12000lbs pull) and 35ft/min on fast speed (2000lbs pull). Its not fast, but about the same as a low mount electric. I have winched myself in high gear quite often, i can get away with it in the zook because its so light. The best thing about this setup is it works perfectly all day everyday, not alt, batteries current draw, solenoids or any of that crap to worry about. Its waterproof, pulls like a schoolboy and is light. When I transfer it toi my Hilux, I'll put a bigger pump in and control gear to get a little more speed out of it. Basically the winch is capable of a lot more speed, but the valve block and pump are holding it back. Al, that said though, its perfect for a club truck, but it aint no competition winch.


Cheers for that, good feed back to have on file :D
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DieselBoy
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by DieselBoy »

Who is our Milemarker dealer in NZ??
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Jafa
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by Jafa »

No idea, I imported mine directly from http://www.winchesplus.com
'85 Hilux crawler, 3rz, duals, 4.7's, 4.88's, ARB's, 30 spline Longfields, 6 stud SNR4x4 Histeer, Airshocks up front, coiled rear, 40" Iroks.
^^^this shite is all about to change....^^^

021 273 9942
jafa@inspire.net.nz
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JR
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by JR »

can any one tell me how much oil im ment to re-fill my nissan pto with? drained it the other day to find nothing but a little gluggy poo
Last edited by JR on Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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coxsy
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by coxsy »

a heavy gear oil that likes brass
89 safari, pto winch, 33x15 simexs. sliders,75mm lift . turbo intercoolered
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monstr
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Re: Just Another Winch Thread

Post by monstr »

Hi there ,i use Elf SP 680 EP industrial gear oil (like golden syrup) just fill it up to the filler hole ,from memory it takes bugger all about 250 mils .the thick bronzy like oil you have taken out is quite normal for this type of worm drive ..cheers
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