IMPORTANT - Acland Report Consultation

[mike]

Taken from the NZ 4wd email list.

I will be posting material here as and when it comes to hand

I have today attended the NGO working group to discuss where the Acland
Report may head - and if you're bored by this stuff then - well go out and
sell your 4WD - cos you'll have nowhere to go if the powers that be get
their way - nowhere

The opposition are well armed, and as usual apathy prevents us from
achieving a darned thing.

There are meetings coming up - starting tomorrow night

I will try and post the outcomes of today's meeting before then

However, the priority is simply to get people to these meetings - our thrust
is that this is more than "walking" access - we are not prepared to trade
paper roads for walking access promises - and there are a few major points
that everyone must repeat

Roads are the only guarantee of access - anything else can be dissolved by
agreements without public consultation
The capture of public property (i.e. fish, game, roads etc) by private
concerns is a no-no
We will trade - but only roads for roads - i.e. re-route a road to make it
better for everyone
We accept "reasonable" closures such as lambing, fire hazard etc - but only
"reasonable"
We want an independent body to oversee "recreational access"

I'll try and get the NGO's strategic advices out on these forum as soon as I
have them - tomorrow should be - but read the list below and plan to get
everyone you know out there - twist arms, threaten violence - I care not

This is damned important stuff

Andy


Full list of meeting times and places (13 May - 15 June}
Make a note of the one near you, and go along to ask for hunting and 4WD
access to be considered. Hunters and 4WD enthusiasts are part of New Zealand
society too!

Auckland - Central
7-9 pm, 6 June 2006
Barrycourt Best Western - Discovery Room (10-20 Gladstone Road, Parnell)

Auckland - Takapuna
7-9 pm, 7 June 2006
Bruce Mason Centre (Cnr Hurstmere Road and The Promenade, Takapuna)

Blenheim
7-9 pm, 24 May 2006
Scenic Circle Blenheim Country Hotel - Marlborough Room (Cnr Henry and
Alfred St, Blenheim)

Christchurch
7-9 pm, 13 June 2006
Sudima Grand Chancellor - Concorde A Room (Cnr Memorial Ave and Orchard
Road, Christchurch)

Cromwell
5-7 pm, 17 May 2006
Golden Gate Lodge (Barry Ave, Cromwell)

Dannevirke
7-9 pm, 1 June 2006
Dannevirke Town Hall (High Street, Dannevirke)

Dunedin
7-9 pm, 16 May 2006
Southern Cross Hotel - Cargill Room (Cnr Princes and High Sts, Dunedin)

Geraldine
7-9 pm, 14 June 2006
Presbyterian Hall (Wilson Street, Geraldine)

Gisborne
7-9 pm, 30 May 2006
The Gisborne Hotel - The Rimu Room (Cnr Huxley and Tyndall Roads, Gisborne)

Greymouth
7-9 pm, 15 June 2006
The Ashley Hotel - Rimu Room (74 Tasman Street, Greymouth)

Hamilton
7-9 pm, 13 June 2006
Kingsgate Hotel - Conference Room (100 Garnett Ave, Te Rapa, Hamilton)

Helensville
7-9 pm, 8 June 2006
Helensville War Memorial Hall (2 Porter Cres, Helensville)

Invercargill
7-9 pm, 18 May 2006
Invercargill Working Men's Club (154 Esk Street, Invercargill)

Kaikohe
7-9 pm, 7 June 2006
Ohaeawai Hotel (Cnr State Highways 1 and 12, Ohaeawai, Kaikohe)

Masterston
4-6 pm, 30 May 2006
Masterton District Council - Frank Cody Lounge (64 Chapel Street,
Masterston)

Napier
7-9 pm, 31 May 2006
War Memorial Centre (48 Marine Parade, Napier)

Nelson
7-9 pm, 23 May 2006
Tahuna Beach Conference Centre - Kotuku Room (70 Beach Road, Tahunanui,
Nelson)

New Plymouth
5-7 pm, 23 May 2006
Grand Central Hotel (42 Powderham St, New Plymouth)

Paihia
7-9 pm, 8 June 2006
The Park Lodge on Paihia - Kingfish Room (Scenic Circle Hotel, Seaview Road,
Paihia)

Palmerston North
7-9 pm, 24 May 2006
Steeple Conference Centre (Kingsgate Palmerston North, 110 Fitzherbert
Avenue, Palmeston North)

Rotorua
7-9 pm, 17 May 2006
Convention Centre (1170 Fenton Street, Cnr Fenton and Arawa Street, Rotorua)

Taupo
7-9 pm, 16 May 2006
Great Lakes Centre - Eastwing (Story Place, Taupo)

Tauranga
7-9 pm, 14 June 2006
Buretta Park Motor Inn (Vale Street, Tauranga)

Wellington
7-9 pm, 25 May 2006
James Cook Grand Chancellor (147 The Terrace, Wellington)

Whangarei
7-9 pm, 6 June 2006
Forum North - Cafler 1 (Rust Avenue, Whangarei)

Mike

[SupraLux]

Mike, can we get a little more info... where can I read the Ackland report?... I'll be at the Christchurch meeting and I expect a number of other christchurch bods to be there too... strength in numbers, etc...

Steve

[PeterVahry]

The official site is http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz where you can request copies etc.

For viewpoints on the project you could check http://www.outdoorrecreation.co.nz and look under the "hot topics" tab.

Thanks to those who've taken an interest in this and having numbers at the public meetings will help. It will be important to keep a level head at those meetings and maintain composure so our message is clearly heard that we are responsible and citizens in good standing.

This is one time you can make a deep impression!

[SupraLux]

This is one time you can make a deep impression!

Thanks Peter... there are a couple of greenies I know who could use a "deep impression" roughly in the centre of their foreheads...

But I understand your call for cool calm clear heads... yelling and having tantrums like a bunch of schoolkids or politicians will not help the cause...

Steve

[mike]

You can access all the info here -> http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/

pay particular attention to this ->

Unformed legal roads
29 If unformed legal roads traversing farm or forest land are marked on maps and/or signposted, what issues are likely to arise and how might they be addressed:

for users
for adjacent landholders
for local government?
30 How might obstructions to walking access, such as deer fences, on unformed legal roads be dealt with?

31 How can weeds, pests and environmental damage in respect of the use of unformed legal roads for walking be managed?

32 Do you consider that there is scope for stopping unformed legal roads in exchange for alternative walking access?

on page http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/sub-consulation.html

Mike

[albundy]

Thanks Mike, been looking for something in that vane all day. Pity I can't get the actual report to read. How about we get organised in each local area and prepare. Sorry, unionist coming out in me. Would be willing to hold a meeting at my place in chch if we can get this going at a local level, with a national focus. It does work, we got nurses 21% pay rises with this strategy. If anyone is interested in chch, give me a pm. United we stand, divided we fall.
Al

[PeterVahry]

Al, you can get a copy of the document to read by sending a request with your mailing address to info@walkingaccess.org.nz

or telephone 04 819 0599

[wjw]

Thanks Mike, been looking for something in that vane all day. Pity I can't get the actual report to read. How about we get organised in each local area and prepare. Sorry, unionist coming out in me. Would be willing to hold a meeting at my place in chch if we can get this going at a local level, with a national focus. It does work, we got nurses 21% pay rises with this strategy. If anyone is interested in chch, give me a pm. United we stand, divided we fall.
Al

Steve an I are planning on going, will be meeting for a beer in town first to get our ideas sussed...

[SupraLux]

Ok, meeting at a pub in town near the event... being a good ol' country boy I don't really know where the pubs are in town close to the event location so if anyone has any ideas post em up...

Just a quiet 7 o' Speights before the meeting and a chance to discuss it before we get there... not a right royal pissup by the way.

Oh, and maybe the exact location should be in the trip leaders group and those interested will be contacted... I'd hate for a bunch of tree-hugging info-seekers to plan to sit at the table next to us and eavesdrop What a conspiratorial world we live in now

Steve

[wjw]

Christchurch
7-9 pm, 13 June 2006
Sudima Grand Chancellor - Concorde A Room (Cnr Memorial Ave and Orchard
Road, Christchurch)

Isn't it up by the airport???? In which case, Tim would be the best person to ask about pubs

[SupraLux]

Ah, it is too... in that case theres a pub on Roydvale Ave just along from the corner of Burnside Park... How about there at 5.30-6pm?

Steve

[albundy]

Not going to waste my time ####### around boys. I suggest you plan to meet somewhere other then a pub, and a little more time prior to the event. The discussion may bring up stuff that will need a little research. Has everyone read the bloody thing? I down loaded it at work and posted it too a few individuals. Thinking of visiting my local MP to express my distaste and views. Used to share cabs with her from the airport home when flying back from wellington on union business. Now thats another idea all together, lobbying MP's. Lets do this right or not at all.
Al

[SupraLux]

Woah there cowboy... all we are talking about is meeting for a beer and a catchup before the public meeting...

If you want to organise a closed meeting about this then yeah, lets do it... but obviously its not going to be an hour before the main one OR in a pub.

So where and when? I've requested a copy of the report but heard nothing yet - maybe I shouldn't have emailed from 4wdstuff.co.nz .

Steve

[kiwipete]

Hi all, you can download the fullreport from here in PDF format.

http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/pub-consult-doc.html

Click on "full document" highlited in blue on the above page, see sample txt below.

Outdoor walking access: consultation document
Published April 2006

This document is also available in PDF format, as a full document (PDF 366KB) or in sections.

To read PDF files you will require Adobe Acrobat Reader, which is free software available on the internet.

[albundy]

Yeah, sorry Steve, bad day at work What about meeting on the thursday or friday night before the 13th, I have a trip on the 10/11 june so won't be around that weekend. And lets still meet for a bit of dutch courage before hand, team building.
Al

[Leithfield]

Will be at that public meeting as well - quite happy to get together beforehand, and have a medicinal ale on the evening in question.

[hosehustler]

you're welcome to get together out here in Brooklands, I have a great possie that has Speights on tap

[Leithfield]

"Good on ya mate"

[wjw]

Just tell me where and when and I'll be there... tims sounds like a good plan....

[muddy]

I attended the meeting in Blenheim on Wed night. My impression was that the panel have a fairly balanced approach, and if their recommendations are followed, there isn't too much to be concerned about. However, there's no guarantee that their recommendations won't be bastardised by the ideological agenda of this government...

There seemed to be a fair bit of paranoia amongst landowners who seem to think they will have all kinds of arseholes wandering freely over their land.. Certainly, the panel support the concept of getting people better informed about access rights and paper roads, which is a bit of a threat to some landowners who are exercising ownership rights over land which is publicly owned. My view is that there a just a few key points which need to be hammered home:

(1) Getting more law-abiding people into rural areas is a good thing for farmers. Thieves & vandals won't do their thing if there are other people around.

(2) It seems like a good idea to move paper roads to provide better access. This a win/win deal because the roads can be re-located to provide better access for the public, and the new routes can be placed to siut existing tracks and gates for the landowners. The big concern here is that there is a suggestion that paper roads could be traded off for walking access only. This needs to be opposed, & I'd suggest that the most politically acceptable argument is to provide access to the outdoors for elderly & disabled people. The 4WD entusiast argument won't win too much support.

(3) The other area I see as a threat to continued access is the increasing offshore ownership of land. There are a few ares I know of with absentee American owners who just deny all access. Most NZ owners are much more reasonable. There needs to be amendment to the Overseas Invesment Act to ensure that any offshore land sales include a legal requirement to provide access to recreational users.

(4) The main concern of most landowners is the Health & Safety legislation which makes them legally liable for any accidents on their property. There seems to be universal agreement that recreational users should be responsible for their own safety, but this government has an agenda of developing a "someone else's fault" culture. This legislation MUST be overturned before landowners will be happy to grant access.

I'd encourage everyone to download the submission document & email off a submission. Attending the meetings is great, but your voice will not count if you do not send off a written submission! It doesn't take long to do. Go to http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz

[mike]

(4) The main concern of most landowners is the Health & Safety legislation which makes them legally liable for any accidents on their property. There seems to be universal agreement that recreational users should be responsible for their own safety, but this government has an agenda of developing a "someone else's fault" culture. This legislation MUST be overturned before landowners will be happy to grant access.

This is incorrect and is a misconception by farmers. the law was changed in 1998. Farmers are no longer liable and all they must do is listed in the following paragraph.

Section 16 of the Health and Safety Employment Act 1992 (HSE Act) was amended in March 1998. Now people who control workplaces, including farmers, have only a simple duty to warn visitors, who have permission to be on their properties, of any work-related, out-of-the-ordinary hazards that may cause them serious harm.

The amendment makes it clear that you cannot be held liable, as long as you warn authorised visitors of any out-of-the-ordinary hazards arising from work on the farm which you know could harm that person.

Now, under Section 16 of the Act, you have two types of duties:

A duty to warn authorised visitors.
A full duty to employees, contractors, and people who are paying customers (this is explained later).
You are not liable if anyone comes on to your land without your permission and suffers harm, whether from a work-related hazard or for any other reason.

follow this link for the exact information http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/publications/walking-access-consultation/appendix-6.html

Mike

[Rangielux]

(4) The main concern of most landowners is the Health & Safety legislation which makes them legally liable for any accidents on their property. There seems to be universal agreement that recreational users should be responsible for their own safety, but this government has an agenda of developing a "someone else's fault" culture.

You are quite right Mike. If you sift around the Health and safety website and find and read the agriculture package with all the guidelines (I have a copy saved on my PC that I refer to regulary) you will find little that should make a landowner concerned.

It fustrates the hell out of me aaahhh that the whole OSH thing gets used as as excuse to keep people out or stop them doing some things. They actually call themselves the health and safety workplace division now - "workplace" being the key word. Some farmers, and I hesitate to say, some 4wd clubs use health and safety as a barrier to certain things.
Use all your common sense you have, don't be negligent have a few guidelines and they (osh) will never bother you.

Getting off my soapbox now....whew

[1lurch]

you got it in one "muddy" . a gruop of us attended the nelson meeting on tuesday night , in fact we had about 1/8 th of the group .

the 'panel ' were right on track and heading in the right direction . they realise the veiw of the 4wd comunity and with 110 000 km of paper roads in nz , they know what we are looking for .

There was no need for our group to even ask one question , everything we wanted to know , our say , was brought up either by another group our the ' panel ' .

To those attending ; go along ( in numbers ) , listen and take in what you can , and then make an informed submission .


Cheers AL

[muddy]

Point taken regarding the OSH legislation. However, the perception amongst farmers is as I stated, and that is definitely a concern. I suspect that one major benefit of the whole consultation process will be better information - about OSH legislation AND about access rights and paper roads. I'll make my main point again though..... You have to make a submission to have your opinions heard - attending a meeting will not achieve anything. Cheers

[hosehustler]

Christchurch get together to decide tactics etc, is
Thursday 1st June @ 7.30pm
It is in Brooklands at the corner of Lower Styx and Harbour Rd, all welcome

[wopass]

so up here in the mighty waikato....

Hamilton
7-9 pm, tuesday 13 June 2006
Kingsgate Hotel - Conference Room (100 Garnett Ave, Te Rapa, Hamilton)


i will be atteneding and would like any interested in comming allong to join me as there is more influence in numbers as has allready been stated. if those that are interested in comming would like to have a get together prior then i sugest the sunday night of the 11th in my office.if interested pm me and i will give details and directions.

Pete,im going to assume you will be a starter to come allong

[wopass]

so up here in the mighty waikato....

Hamilton
7-9 pm, tuesday 13 June 2006
Kingsgate Hotel - Conference Room (100 Garnett Ave, Te Rapa, Hamilton)


i will be atteneding and would like any interested in comming allong to join me as there is more influence in numbers as has allready been stated. if those that are interested in comming would like to have a get together prior then i sugest the sunday night of the 11th in my office.if interested pm me and i will give details and directions.

Pete,im going to assume you will be a starter to come allong

i may not have the missile out of the office by then so may be standing room only....

just to repeat myself meeting 11th sunday night in my office 6.30-7.00pmish if thats cool with who ever wants to come over.

[DieselBoy]

Sweet man, I'll be there

Now, who else???

Comon, i'm sure there's more!!!!

[PeterVahry]

Well done, all those people who have made the effort to attend a local meeting. I got to the Auckland central meeting on Tues night and I understand there was good attendance at the North Shore meeting on Wed night.
There were four 4x4 related people at the meeting I was at and the chairman John Acland specifically acknowledged that there had been a continued strong presence of 4x4 at the meetings.

There is still a suggestion that unformed legal roads could be "shifted" by agreement with a landowner to more useful alignments but we need to ensure that any such moves would not impact on the over-riding rights of passage inherent in a legal road.

The Auckland central meeting did not conclude that there needs to be a separate access authority....probably a reaction to the already overloaded bureaucracy that that farmers close to urban areas suffer from. There were several farmer suggestions that things should be made tougher to get access to private land. While there was some grudging recognition of 'paper roads" there was also concern that the cost would fall to farmers to mark them out or fence them. ( the rules already require fencing but the practicalities are often against that.)

Again the farm community questioned the outcome of fencing off waterways as is being promoted by Regional Councils and water related groups. Who they asked, will be responsible for keeping the weeds at bay and once there is overgrowth, then the areas won't be any use to walk along! Which comes back to the eventual maintenance of any marginal strip or legal road, or other public land set aside for access.

This comes back to the case of allowing farmers to graze an unformed legal road as at least it may be possible to enjoy it without continually having to clear vegetation.

It would be nice to be able to suggest to the working group a possible way of effectively marking out "paper roads" at a minimal cost in time and money.

Peter Vahry

[albundy]

Yep off to tuesday's meeting in CHCH. We should get a few there. Thanks for the info Peter as that moving of paper roads could then get designated a walkway. Your comments about farmers using/grazing the roads, we encountered a farmer moving thousands of sheep along the onslow lake rd at easter. He gave us directions for a alternate route, good as we saw something different from the usual but we still caught up with him, on the wrong side. No probs, he sais at the bottom of the hill, he would lead a trail through the mob, we had to follow, at speed as he was on an atv. My point is, farmers and 4wdrivers working together.