Outlaw Class

[swampa]

minimum tyre size,37,s no different classes, eg: engine size, or tyre size

[rokhound]

I think you just need to release you aren't really talking about winch challenge as it is currently run but a sport somewhere between WC and rock crawling. I guess it is like the rock racing (eg KOH) that is taking off in the US but with an NZ flavour. ie diy, cheap and more mud than rocks.

You my man have hit it right on the money (except for the mud bit, there are plenty of activities for mud sloppers ). Weather we as 4wders like it or not, there are more greenies in the right ears than 4wd enthusiasts. If we can show an event that is reasonably ecology friendly, it will help our profile quite a bit. In a TT type event, if you stuff it up, you come off 2nd best, the obstacles will win (rocks etc don't dent ). This will help with spectator support as there is the a good chance they will see carnage

An event like this can not come under the rules of winch challenge or trialing. Suprasurf and I had a play with ideas and rules for this kind of comp about 6 yrs ago, but there simply weren't the rigs available at that time (not that we knew about anyways). May be different now, lets see how much interest there is.

*edited because I felt like it.*

[Beer_Cruiser]

Is this some thing like the Rallywoods thing that Stinky Taz 01 and Skid were talking about ?
Could be the way to go

[mudhaw]

There are a lot of good idears and suport for somthing different
BUT the reason behind most of the rules and bits and peices is to make insurance componies and osh happy.
If there not happy who ever organises the comp is in deep doodoo if anything goes bad
So I think if you base rules and regs from trials and winch comp you can keep most people happy and maybe get 4x4 challanges on board a lot of pc slop but it helps with with insurence.
Now darinz in charge it may be eazier and more open minded than before.

[darinz]

If the basic rules are molded from trails, WC and offroad racing and therefore the safety side of things looked after, then I can't see any reason why 4x4 Challenges wouldn't support it and assist where possible. The club was setup to assist the running of events so as long as it is SAFE then the support is there (and a lot of experience).
The big thing is that people need to realise is we (I or whatever) are trying to increase the number of events and make it easier for people to hold them. BUT safety is first and foremost and that is why some rules are there and can not be compromised. The WOF rule is one that has been used (for safety)but it is NOT the only one. Trails, offroad racing etc don't require it and are perfectly safe so we can just use that sort of model for safety.

All that is needed is some like minded people to stop talking and start doing!
And to be honest I have my platefull with the current WC stuff so it has to be someone else. The past 2 weeks almost exclusively WC and I'm off this afternoon for until Monday on WC business as well.

[skid]

my pet peeve for the day



THEY ARE FAAARKING ....................

TRIALS




TRAILS are we go 4 wheeling




rant over, as you were thanx

[timotheus]

Not trying to stir the safety barrel too much but Ive seen trucks running in an Outlaw style class here in Dunners. It works fine. In fact i prefer the idea. Last time I entered in Clubmans I did enough damage to stop me from wheeling for 6 months. Too farken much.

Now the prospect of slapping a winch on some huckery son bitch of a 'trials' POS is far more up my alley.

Really, having to re roof a roadie every challenge is far more concerning than putting some half doors on.

The windscreen idea shits me, but what about perspex or whatever its called?
Maybe a central bar to add support in the middle?

Speaking from my pocket (as a lot of people I think need to) Allowing trails trucks in with simple additions like half doors and a piece of perspex would get the class going.

Tim

[darinz]

Not trying to stir the safety barrel too much but Ive seen trucks running in an Outlaw style class here in Dunners. It works fine. In fact i prefer the idea. Last time I entered in Clubmans I did enough damage to stop me from wheeling for 6 months. Too farken much.

Tim

Was that because of poor track setting or poor driving?
When I'm setting stages, the goal is to make it POSSIBLE for a truck to finish and event undamaged. If a truck must damage panels etc just to complete a stage then I believe that is unexceptable and discourages people from entering because of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
My event on the weekend had some roll overs and truck damage but every case was driver error! Some big errors some just lack of seat time in a new truck but still drivers fault so the damage is exceptable from an organisers point of view.

[wopass]

just lack of seat time in a new truck but still drivers fault .

hearing that

need more seat time to figure out how to drive truck again

[darinz]

just lack of seat time in a new truck but still drivers fault .

hearing that

need more seat time to figure out how to drive truck again

You and me both!!!!!

[timotheus]

Was that because of poor track setting or poor driving?
When I'm setting stages, the goal is to make it POSSIBLE for a truck to finish and event undamaged. If a truck must damage panels etc just to complete a stage then I believe that is unexceptable and discourages people from entering because of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
My event on the weekend had some roll overs and truck damage but every case was driver error! Some big errors some just lack of seat time in a new truck but still drivers fault so the damage is exceptable from an organisers point of view.

It was in one of my favourtie parts of our club, tight technical and driveable. I had driven in a few different whips without incident prior. This time it pissed down, we tried to follow big dollar rigs on 36"s with our 700 sats and where the clay was polished clean we slipped. It was unavoidable from our perspective. Blew a CV trying to get off the trees then winched back down a 100m slope over 45mins. We were the last ones allowed through and if it wasnt for the CV, were driving a very competitive time. (Just that one though, timed out of all but one before that... )

Shit just didnt go our way.

Hence why I vote get it more accesible to more people.

[Jafa]

This is the type of event I'm on about

[vvega]

cosidering you didnt like the budget for a true outlaw class
that is is the same spendy ballpark with ongoing costs
i can see a easy 100+k on some of those trucks

remeber what your truck cost to build you and remember to add all your hours into that as well
and thats still not at there level

just a thought

[Jafa]

cosidering you didnt like the budget for a true outlaw class
that is is the same spendy ballpark with ongoing costs
i can see a easy 100+k on some of those trucks

remeber what your truck cost to build you and remember to add all your hours into that as well
and thats still not at there level

just a thought

it wasnt a budget for the outlaw class I was on about, it was the budget for KOH cars, which are still moon money compared to TT trucks. The Bandaged Bear Zook, that came third or something in TT09, has all the fruit in it, is for sale for 90k. Thats a top of the class buggy. Most of the other trucks in TT are built on a lots less, as you can see in the vid, saffy's, luxes with tall coils etc. The DCab lux is still on leaves. No leaf springs in KOH (cept the FToys )
Thers going to always be some big dollar rigs in any class, eg 90k for a Cowper trial truck, I'm guessing 150k for Tony Whites championship winning winch truck. The majority are a lot less than that tho.

As I said earlier, I am off on a different tangent for an event. Outlaw class is not where I'm aiming, more TT style rather than another winch challenge class.
Totally another thread required

[rokhound]

cosidering you didnt like the budget for a true outlaw class
that is is the same spendy ballpark with ongoing costs
i can see a easy 100+k on some of those trucks

remeber what your truck cost to build you and remember to add all your hours into that as well
and thats still not at there level

just a thought

it wasnt a budget for the outlaw class I was on about, it was the budget for KOH cars, which are still moon money compared to TT trucks. The Bandaged Bear Zook, that came third or something in TT09, has all the fruit in it, is for sale for 90k. Thats a top of the class buggy. Most of the other trucks in TT are built on a lots less, as you can see in the vid, saffy's, luxes with tall coils etc. The DCab lux is still on leaves. No leaf springs in KOH (cept the FToys )
Thers going to always be some big dollar rigs in any class, eg 90k for a Cowper trial truck, I'm guessing 150k for Tony Whites championship winning winch truck. The majority are a lot less than that tho.

As I said earlier, I am off on a different tangent for an event. Outlaw class is not where I'm aiming, more TT style rather than another winch challenge class.
Totally another thread required

100% agree with that Jafa. The average joe with some fab skills (and let's face it, you are not going to enter this type of event in NZ unless you can fab your own rig) with a budget of $15-20k could sort out a damn good rig that would be more than capable.
The beauty of this type of event is that it can be held in reasonably small area (hell it can be done in an infield of an existing motor sport facility) so there can be good spectator support. The more bums you put in there watching, the easier it will be to gain sponsorship and support for the event.
If this ever does happen, I believe we will model it fairly closely to Aussie event, but with a Kiwi flavor, (ie short cuts that are mega ugly and worth more points or just a standard ugly line that will take longer and be less likely to cause total carnage).
My 10c anyways.

[vvega]

good points and ideas and i do agree 20 k put into a non road registered truck would give you some thing very compeditive as long as your doing the work yourself
some dam good idea comming up
now just need to put it in place

[swampa]

lets use my cruiser as an example:
to get a vehicle ready for a tuff truck comp:

arb lockers inside 4.8's, $6000
42" iroks, 17x10 beadlock rims, $5000 to 6000
longfield cv's and axels, part time 4wd, $5000
25% reduction gears $2000
then there is the lift required, roll cage
new and stronger adjustable arms front and rear $5000 to 6000
, then there is the trailer? tow wagon?
and the list goes on..........

[Jafa]

Aside from spending about 2-3k more on bigger tires and rims, you'd be shelling out the same coin for bits for any other class as well, whether its a trials truck or a winch truck. In fact some of the entrants in TT are winch challenge trucks.
Iirc the Bushranger that won TT in 08 was on 39"krawlers, so 42"s arent "essential" yeah right!
most of the field is on 40's

[swampa]

if tuff truck started out as a budget thing here, within 5 years you would need serious coin to be at the top, just like trials, winch comps, offroad racing..., my example of a cruiser would be like driving a dinosaur in 5 year, still do the job, be heaps of fun but it wouldnt be competative.

[Jafa]

if tuff truck started out as a budget thing here, within 5 years you would need serious coin to be at the top, just like trials, winch comps, offroad racing..., my example of a cruiser would be like driving a dinosaur in 5 year, still do the job, be heaps of fun but it wouldnt be competative.

As is the nature of motorsport in general so unless you want to "rule" it into a "formula" type event, you just have to live with it. So until the sport gets that way, then the first 5 years will be good fun for all

[mudhaw]

After 5 years of compatition your average winch truck has been fully rebuit.
If you stuff the chassis you normaly start from scratch put all the bits that arnt broken back on and remodify 90% of it to be more compatable

As for price of you average winch truck (please be seated for this one) thay start around 20k the average is about 40 to 60k and the top trucks have had 100 to 140k spent on them most of that doesnt include man hours .
The top suzies in the comp have had abuot 130k spent on them.
A good hydrolic winch at mates rates is about 10k (fully set up that is)

What we need is a comp that everyone with any buddget can enter and still have a chance of winning.
Thats why we set up the club class, and we are getting more inttering that class than the challange class (witch says to me money and rules are the biggest issues)
Most people just want to get out there and drive and have fun

[swampa]

that bushranger had ummmmmm???? portals, there is probably half a dozen or so running them now over there, same with the hydraulic coilovers, 4 years ago there was 1, so all those guys who want to win now have to fork out an extra$$$$$$ for the latest and greatest
toys ahhhh.

[Satalite]

After 5 years of compatition your average winch truck has been fully rebuit.
If you stuff the chassis you normaly start from scratch put all the bits that arnt broken back on and remodify 90% of it to be more compatable

As for price of you average winch truck (please be seated for this one) thay start around 20k the average is about 40 to 60k and the top trucks have had 100 to 140k spent on them most of that doesnt include man hours .
The top suzies in the comp have had abuot 130k spent on them.
A good hydrolic winch at mates rates is about 10k (fully set up that is)

What we need is a comp that everyone with any buddget can enter and still have a chance of winning.
Thats why we set up the club class, and we are getting more inttering that class than the challange class (witch says to me money and rules are the biggest issues)
Most people just want to get out there and drive and have fun

You hit the nail on the head there Dion!!!!!!

Trials almost run's "formula's", thats what the different classes are for. G Class being the most standard and low budget from memory.

So more classes in W/C has potential, needs more scheming i reckon

[Jafa]

that bushranger had ummmmmm???? portals, there is probably half a dozen or so running them now over there, same with the hydraulic coilovers, 4 years ago there was 1, so all those guys who want to win now have to fork out an extra$$$$$$ for the latest and greatest
toys ahhhh.

So now is the time to get into a kiwi Tuff Truck then, while we are still all noobs on a budget

[darinz]

After 5 years of compatition your average winch truck has been fully rebuit.
If you stuff the chassis you normaly start from scratch put all the bits that arnt broken back on and remodify 90% of it to be more compatable

As for price of you average winch truck (please be seated for this one) thay start around 20k the average is about 40 to 60k and the top trucks have had 100 to 140k spent on them most of that doesnt include man hours .
The top suzies in the comp have had abuot 130k spent on them.
A good hydrolic winch at mates rates is about 10k (fully set up that is)

What we need is a comp that everyone with any buddget can enter and still have a chance of winning.
Thats why we set up the club class, and we are getting more inttering that class than the challange class (witch says to me money and rules are the biggest issues)
Most people just want to get out there and drive and have fun

You hit the nail on the head there Dion!!!!!!

Trials almost run's "formula's", thats what the different classes are for. G Class being the most standard and low budget from memory.

So more classes in W/C has potential, needs more scheming i reckon

But when you can't run more than about 30 in an event, there is a limit to how many classes would be used. While Trials (or trails ), offroad racing etc have things we can learn from, they are diffierent and we have to be aware of the limitations and either work around them or change the sport!

BUT I don't make those decisions, the competitors do! The club class needs to develop and we just need to manage it to keep it as good as it currently is.
4x4 Challenges is having an AGM next month (to be confirmed and notified) and this will be a very good chance for people to come and get involved. It only costs $26 to join ($20 joining fee and $6 per year at present but likely to go up a bit) and then you can have your say and work alongside me (and a lot of others)making this stuff happen.

Remember talk is cheap! What is needed is for the people with all the bright ideas to get involved and actually do it!
I've just come back from the NZFWDA AGM and there is some exiciting things in the winds for WC but it needs more to get on board to keep it happening.

The only people who can make our sport better is us as competitors AND organisers. Sit back and let other do it and then you can't coment or complain!