Wish I Thought of That... Trail Recovery Hook

[xj]

RE: Article Issues‏
From: Mark Craig (shinrai1@hotmail.com)
Sent: Tuesday, 14 July 2009 1:19:38 a.m.
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Hello Adventure Bob.

Thanks for responding.

If its ok, ill cut and paste portions of your reply and add my response to it.

"First, thanks for reading and taking enough interest and your valuable time to comment on an article."
- My pleasure, it really needed to be commented on, in my humble opinion.

"This article for some reason has hit a nerve with folks there in Australia and I can't help but wonder as to the purpose of the communications all stemming from your neck of the woods."
At least two of us on that address list are from New Zealand, a different country from Australia... or was that just a joke... haha you Canadians are quite humerous after all. Perhaps it hit a nerve becuase we (yes, the Aussies included) have a huge amount of common sense and dont just swallow what is spoon fed to us.....

"Let me simply say that if the purpose is honest and open discussion of the article, I will be willing to entertain any serious discussion you'd like to have."
The purpose is to try to stop any unsafe practices being undertaken under the guise of being a great idea. While my email to you may have been written in a tongue in cheek manner, the subject of safety is indeed serious.

"1) The critique must be of the technique or methodology, not a judgmental assessment without factual or statistical basis."
That's fair. However, I thought that my email to you clearly pointed out the dangerous technique and the non-thought out methodology. In the manufacturers instructions that come with the hooks we buy down here, it clearly states how to attach the hook to the vehicle etc. IE: HOW IT IS TO BE USED AS PER THE MANUFACTURER SPECIFICATIONS.
I would therefore ask, where is the technical data, or engineering methodology to accompany and support the article?
Did the manufacturers engineers approve this useage of the hooks in the fashion outlined?
If we (not likely by hypothetically) are to follow the method in the article, how can you safeguard us, the public that this is indeed safe?
I would assume that the relative homework was done before putting this potentially lethal weapon into that hands of the public. What is there in place to stop me coming an sueing you if this did go haywire? Where are the facts, and stats to make this a proven and safe method, rather than being "OK" by your article writers judgemental assessment?

"2) You must also be willing to openly take credit for your critique using your professional credentials."
And your article author promoted profession credentials in coming up with this idea I assume? I'm not an engineer, I can have no professional opinion, but I have seen rated hooks flatten out under load... simple common sense tells us what WILL happen if a hook flattens out using your method. I would have thought that editor of a magazine would have ensured his/her professional integrity stays in good stead by proofing the engineering behind this method before putting it to print.

In short, I am asking you to show us, the readers, and users, proof that the method of attaching two hooks together, and using them in the manner described in the article, is safe, and backed by the manufacturers and their engineers, and is not just a pie-in-the-sky idea dreamed up an not fully considered.

Kindest regards


Mark (In New Zealand)

[Lynx]

Good Work xj, Some very valid points in there

Cheers Daniel

[wgtnnewbie]

so has there been a response...

[xj]

Erm........... no.

[xj]

At leat one of the ANZAC cuzzies has replied, pretty much re-stating the risk inherant in this practice... in a manner in which we would expect from our Trans-tasman brothers.

[lilpigzuk]

link? or copy?

[xj]

Rexy, cant really in all good faith do that. Ill certainly post up what, if/when i get a response back from the Moab people.

[dazza85]

I Emailed and asked if I could post this on here and here it is
I think that XJ and Glen have done very well - (certainly better than I could do)

yeah mate go for your life!

FYI I am a currently a contributor to 4X4 Australia magazine and have been a motoring writer since 1993. I have also worked for Australian 4WD Action and Overlander.

I also contribute to MOTOR and Street Machine etc etc

Regards
GT
----- Original Message -----
From: Daryle
To: Glenn Torrens
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Article Issues

Hi Glen,
What can I say except very well said.
May I post it here ?? http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/Forums/ ... 49&t=17129
Thanks for your time
Regards
Daryle

On 17/07/2009, at 5:34 PM, Glenn Torrens wrote:

Adventure Bob,

The 'purpose' is because we don't want to see anyone killed as a result of the use of your double-hooked 'product' promoted/described in your online article, something that is - in my opinion - likely to occur during a recovery of a vehicle, especially with the use of a snatch strap.

Every year in Australia, people die (and for what it is worth, many vehicles are damaged) as a result of inappropriate recovery techniques and/or poor training. Enormous forces are present when using a snatch strap and a steel object such as what is promoted in the article, when traveling in excess of 150MPH (likely) on the end of a detached snatch strap, IS A LETHAL WEAPON.

mate you can ask for all the stats of whatever you like, or impose all the restrictions etc etc you like on where and how you use this information (or threaten, which is my interpretation of your 'discussion' methodology) but I am happy for you to publish Glenn Torrens's opinion anywhere on the planet as you see fit.

However, in the interest of personal/professional courtesy, however, please delete any reference to my email address as there is no need for (my) further discussion on this matter.

I must say, I do detect a little "holier-than-thou" attitude in your email to us Aussies; I hope I am wrong. If I - and my colleagues in the Australian 4WD community - save one life due to this, I'll be happy. Many of us have been party to, or have knowledge of fatal disasters involving 4WDs (some of which is kept away from the mainstream media; due to senstivity of internal Police/mining company OHS reports etc etc) I don't think seeing a head explode due to an dislodged towball, D-shackle or your hook etc would be much fun. Colour pics are enough...

I once again asert that your product/procedure is a lethal weapon in the wrong circumstances and I once again implore you to delete any reference to it on a Jeep branded or 4WD/4X4 enthusiasts' website before some inexperienced person copies it and dies as a result. We are not looking for an apology or an admission of guilt or anything - just make it disappear

There is no glory in this for me - I simply do not want to see any more people killed as a result of dangerous equipment or inappropriate recovery techniques.

Regards
Glenn Torrens
Motoring Writer
Australia




----- Original Message -----
From: MoabJeeper Magazine
To Snip XX
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:35 AM
Subject: Article Issues

Gentlemen,

First, thanks for reading and taking enough interest and your valuable time to comment on an article. This article for some reason has hit a nerve with folks there in Australia and I can't help but wonder as to the purpose of the communications all stemming from your neck of the woods.

Let me simply say that if the purpose is honest and open discussion of the article, I will be willing to entertain any serious discussion you'd like to have. In fact, for the auto journalists in the group, if you're willing, we will even post any serious, well thought out critique of our article as you write it, verbatim. There are a couple of caveats however: 1) The critique must be of the technique or methodology, not a judgmental assessment without factual or statistical basis. 2) You must also be willing to openly take credit for your critique using your professional credentials. Additionally, we reserve the right to rebut any critique submitted.

Here at MJ we know we don't know everything. The difference between us and many others is that we're willing to say that we don't, and we welcome true honest discussion with folks who may have more knowledge.

Thanks for your interest and I look forward to any meaningful discussion you'd like to engage in.

Thanks for reading,
Adventure Bob
VP of Breaking Stuff