CAPPING TYRE SIZES

[skid]

Righto then, I know its been thrashed around before and will be forever a talking point around the campfire over an ale or 3, but I have decided to throw it out there again.

I have had a few people of late complain that Rallywoods in Welly is getting too rutted from big tyres being thrashed around the tracks, and a fair bit of this comment is coming from fullas already running 35" tyres.

So recently I have been asking this question around the traps with varied answers and some really good points have been raised.

Some clubs run a 33" tyre size limit and some clubs don't care.

What does everyone think

If you could afford to, would you run bigger tyres........
Do you think peoples driving style has a lot to do with the tracks getting rutted out........
Do you think there should be a voluntary cap in public areas like DOC land etc etc........
Are you finding the same problem in other well used areas........
How big is too big, theres some of us on 40s, 44s, is that too big.........



I don't people to come here and slag off clubs they have left coz of a tyre size limit, I want to know everyones thoughts on where the sport/pastime of 4 wheeling is headed with regards to tyre size and conservation of the land and the image we portray driving around on our massive tyres and lifted trucks.

coz lets face it theres always gonna be those that see a huge 4wd driven on the road, covered in mud, and instantly think its some redneck who his hell bent on ripping up the land.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS

[coxsy]

well have 33'' was bulldozing a lot in pureore tracks when there last , going up to 35'' when i can afford it, mainly for diff clearance on the old safari,

[Sadam_Husain]

Its diff clearance that determines how deep ruts are dug not tyre diameter?

[coxsy]

well have less on 33'' s than a cruisers does

[rangimotors]

I think it come down to driver education. Tyre size is only one of the factors, type of driving and horsepower are others that spring to mind. A lot of the time you will find a lux on 33's do more damage than one on 36's because they are foot on the floor trying to get through it and the big rig is rolling on idle. There is a place and a time for that sort of driving, grade 5 tracks get and expect a lot of damage but you will also find the guys using them do a lot of track work and that the tracks are not getting a whole lot worse. The tracks that get ripped up are usually the ones close to the big centers that are meant to be access roads and are used by a lot of normal people, new uneducated drivers go to these places and do lots of damage.
I am a strong believer that a track should stay about the same grade as it always is.

[fweddy]

I run 33s, only reasons I don't have 35s is 'cause of cost which would be more than just tyres as I will have to mod truck a little.

Same as above in respect to clearance with the underslung springs.

Don't they say a 31 on a zuk is like a 33 on a lux which is like a 35 on a cruiser or saf for ability?

I haven't found many places that I am limited in ruts because of my 33s tho

[Bulletproof]

Perennial Question Skid

The simple answer is " there is no way to cap it " because individuals who are a law to themselves will fit 44s.

The Nelson 4x4 club has a 33 inch tyre rule but it can be lifted for competition by the ruling committee. I run 35 Simex and BFGS but when I run a club trip I fit my 33s.

From what I have seen 35s seems to be a limit unless a person is prepared to spend BIG DOLLARS which means power and tranmission upgrades. The average truck can't cope with even 35s and spin their tyres and stuff a track.

The NZFWDA is trying to limit tyre size but have no control over people who are not affiliated

My 2 cents worth and it will stilled be discussed again in 10 years time.

Im lucky because I have 5 sets of tyres to pick from.

Cheers Richard

[cool__bananas]

fweddy is right, if you make a tyre limit it would need to be certain sizes for certain diffs, cause a zuki with 31s is gona have a shit load more clearance than a safari with 31s so therefore the zuki would do alot more damage, and it would be unfair to the guys with bigger diffs, and alot of the time i can be the guys with smaller tyres cause the have to try something lots more times and still cant do it whereas a guy with big tyres may only have to do it once. but honestly i just think it is a extremly stupid idea to stop people changing there trucks preformance just cause others dont.

[coxsy]

in the minganiui thread there is a pajo having six or more goes at a little rise where if once failed should of been pulled up

[Jerry]

I think 35" is a happy medium, I'm sticking with 33"...its a good size to retain the low gearing....

As for the rallywoods tracks we are looking at going thru most of the tracks every 6 months to a year to take the top off them where people dig them out which will help with the problem, we can ask the local clubs for diesel donations for the bulldozer when it happens.....

[mudzilla]

Its diff clearance that determines how deep ruts are dug not tyre diameter?

What he said.

[mudzilla]

in the minganiui thread there is a pajo having six or more goes at a little rise where if once failed should of been pulled up

Yep

[Bulletproof]

The Christchurch 4x4 club tried to bring in a 33 inch tyre rule about 5 years ago.

The result was mass resignations and the guys with bigger tyres did their own thing anyhow.

Cheers Richard

PS on the Westcoast there is only one track that I know of that 33s are no good.

[coxsy]

yes well some kiwi's don't like rules happens over over nz in many situations

[rokhound]

As you said Skid, this will be thrashed about for ever and a day, and sadly, it is unlikely there will ever be an answer that suits all.

IMHO the issue here is with driver attitude, and no, it can't be controlled. There is absolutely no need to spin up tyres when you have plenty of traction. But as long the f**ktards among us keep doing that (because it looks cool and they can wear the mud like a badge )it will always be an issue.

As an aside to this, I also believe we are all guilty of the above at some point or another, and I am not getting at people who are spinning tyres on firmish bases just so they can clear them. I am only having a go at the ones who spin the shit up when there is no need to.

So there you go, fight over that for a bit.

[haynzy]

Tyre size can be a huge issue in wrecking tracks but also what people need to realise is that nature has its own way of doing just as much damage as the ruts we start are perfect water traps and runoffs.
I suspect that the majority of damage to the tracks I saw at costa plenty on the weekend was due to weather.

[curly12]

Na Skiddy, I say limit horsepower cause then those fools with 35's can't spin them and do the damage.
For gods sake who likes to hear the sound of a v8 singing in the bush.
Best we all drive suzukis on 29" tyres and stock standard 1l motors to keep everyone happy.
And when they dig out the tracks, bugger maintaining the tracks and then limit everyone to 28" tyres and remove a sparkplug from the 1l motor.

And after they get stuck how about we ban 4wd cause by then you would of made diff locks illegal anyway. And once you get stuck in a 2wd ban them and make people walk.

Fark me, so you might even have to consider driver education.

Isn't it sad when we can no longer take responcibilty for our actions eh??

[Jafa]

An IFS Paj with 31's an no lockers will do more damage spinning a wheel at each end and having 5 goes at an obstacle than a truck with 40's and two lockers that idles up the same obstacle without wheelspin. Its all about how its driven, you need to educate the drivers rather than limit the vehicles

[haynzy]

An IFS Paj with 31's an no lockers will do more damage spinning a wheel at each end and having 5 goes at an obstacle than a truck with 40's and two lockers that idles up the same obstacle without wheelspin. Its all about how its driven, you need to educate the drivers rather than limit the vehicles

Yep education goes along way to teaching people to avoid logs aye Jafa

[Jafa]

WTF has that got to do with capping tire sizes...dickhead

[skid]

Its diff clearance that determines how deep ruts are dug not tyre diameter?

What he said.

how so

if you run 33s on your 40, it will dig a hole about that deep

if you put 37s on your 40, it will dig a deeper hole

or am I missing something here




OK, hang on, got my brain working tonight. I see the diff clearance thingy now.

righto as you were

[Moriarty]

Nice try Curly, but make it that everybody has to buy Korandos on 32" SATs.

bigger feet, more horses to spin em.
bigger feet, wider vehicle to retain stability on sidlings. tracks get wider etc.
NZ becomes one big 4WD park.

Seriously, it is self limiting.
Darwins theory of natural selection is the best option.

[vvega]

dont see the point in capping tires .. its just natural evolution
i do think with more sensible driving from those that drive trucks with 33" tires on there trucks and dont have 700 attempts at something ... wont #### it for everyone else with 33" tires
if in doubt .. winch that shit out , your save everyone time and effort ...
people need to learn to give up

[Bulletproof]

Jafa running his 40s with 4 lbs pressure has probably got less diff clearance than some one with 35 X 11.5 simex running 20lbs pressure.

Whos going to do the most damage to a track ?

The person with the 35s because they dont have the traction that a bagging 40 tyre has.

Cheers Richard

[haynzy]

WTF has that got to do with capping tire sizes...dickhead

with smaller tyres you would have maybe missed the log entirely
Clearly my smart ass comments are not well recieved so will just shut up

[vvega]

Jafa running his 40s with 4 lbs pressure has probably got less diff clearance than some one with 35 X 11.5 simex running 20lbs pressure.

Whos going to do the most damage to a track ?

The person with the 35s because they dont have the traction that a bagging 40 tyre has.

Cheers Richard

i think that hits the nail on the head
a well setup truck and a good driver vrs a cock in a surf with bald tires

and whos doing all the moaning ... the guy in the surf ... because he dosent understand why you need a well setup truck
and that THIS is the reason he cant drive tracks ..

well setup =
recovery gear and good tires

good driver =
someone that can identify that they need to self recover get a tow etc
someone that can pick a line and drive it
someone that dosent want to break there truck on every trip

personally i think if every drove there trucks like they had to drive them home then the quality of driving would increase
(hitting a random tree in the bush dont count) somtimes theres just some freeky shit going on
also just as a side note .. had he of had lesser tires they wouldnt have taken the impact like they did cushioning the driver from real serious harm + the cage is right by his head .. your a lucky man jafa
id take a broken kingpin over a trip in the rescue helicopter anyday

[haynzy]

i think that hits the nail on the head
a well setup truck and a good driver vrs a cock in a surf with bald tires

and whos doing all the moaning ... the guy in the surf ... because he dosent understand why you need a well setup truck
and that THIS is the reason he cant drive tracks ..

well setup =
recovery gear and good tires

good driver =
someone that can identify that they need to self recover get a tow etc
someone that can pick a line and drive it
someone that dosent want to break there truck on every trip

personally i think if every drove there trucks like they had to drive them home then the quality of driving would increase
(hitting a random tree in the bush dont count) somtimes theres just some freeky shit going on
also just as a side note .. had he of had lesser tires they wouldnt have taken the impact like they did cushioning the driver from real serious harm + the cage is right by his head .. your a lucky man jafa
id take a broken kingpin over a trip in the rescue helicopter anyday

Just so we are clear my comments about Jafa were 100% piss take and are not to be taken seriously.
However this debate could circle for ages with pros and cons. If you have a learner driver who is in his truck his standard truck is only given one shot at a tricky part before being recovered, How is he to learn to drive a different line or use throtlle control and momentum to retain traction and not over wheelspin. Yes driver education is a huge factor but ya can only learn by doing.
Also as I posted earlier the tracks change on their own, costa plenty is now easier than ever and most people drive there with 35's.
Summing up,
Will tyre restrictions save the tracks?
How do you educate people properly?
Ther are no correct answers, yet we will probebly be regulated at some point by someone who thinks he has the answers, untill then im savin up for my log skidder tyres

[skid]

Added a poll

[fweddy]

If you have a learner driver who is in his truck his standard truck is only given one shot at a tricky part before being recovered, How is he to learn to drive a different line or use throttle control and momentum to retain traction and not over wheelspin. Yes driver education is a huge factor but ya can only learn by doing.

Totally agree there! And these new 'learners' will never be able to be regulated, as soon as you get one 'under control' he is no longer a learner and there is some new chum who has just bought a lada and wants to try playing at some place that looked interesting to him (albeit not the place we would choose) and good on him. And in reality this is off topic because most of these guys don't have big tyres etc.

Over all there seem to be two main issues raised through this - The guy on smaller tyres can't get through & 'damaging the environment.'

Regarding the first, and this might be a bit tongue in cheek - but what is wrong with a track with ruts that you can't get through? Must we get through? When I go out I like some challenges, I don't HAVE to get any where. If there are tracks that are too rutted out I know that is a challenge for the future, maybe when I have a more capable truck or when the track is changed again later or I can do some track work to get myself through. We need to realise our limitation and decide if we want to risk vehicle damage or getting stuck against turning around and there is also nothing wrong with giving it a go anyway. Part of the whole concept of 4x4ing is pushing the limits of where you can go and going some amazing and interesting places. If the tracks get rutted out what is the issue? To some extent I don't even have an issue with some one spinning their wheels and shifting mud around, although I don't really see much point in doing it myself. This isn't a generalisation for all areas I must add, of course if the tracks are used for access (dwellings or business like forestry etc) or if they are needed for emergency access (firebreaks) that is a totally different story, but we are talking about 4x4 tracks not highways, if you don't want the challenge of this track, you can fix it or go and find another that suits your vehicle or even just go drive on the seal.

Regarding the second - environmental damage. Any truck can do this even if it is driven and set up right. I think there are places for different things. If the area is that sensitive to damage, lets move on to another place. There are some areas that need particular care but are still a 4x4 access area, and they should be marked to notify people that this is an access route, much of DOC land is like this. But there are also places that are not so sensitive where there is more freedom. Personally I don't actually have an issue with, and think it would be great to have selected ribbons of 4x4 access (of varying toughness) through more of our amazing DOC administered, publicly owned land.

[mudmike]

The most track dammage I've seen done was by two guys with 31at's well out of there depth on a muddy track, they had put snow chains on to get going. what a mess that made. My point is it does not matter if you make rules on tyre size to limit damage, there are always clowns that bugger it up with lack of brain power.
my 2cents