Club Class Winch challenge rules etc

[monstr]

Hi People ,At the moment on 4x4 Challenges web site there is a discussion taking place on what rules/veh specs you want ,these will more than likely be put in place for the next Norwest over Easter next year ,there has been some very good ideas so far but We need more input from you as to what YOU want ,Have your say now or dont bitch and moan if rules are put in place that you dont like ..Cheers

[DieselBoy]

Definately need more imput!!!!!

Please take the time to read whats been suggested, and follow the thread through as the disscussion has developed.

So far it looks like the main new rules might be:

standard winch's with no modification
one spring and shock per corner
4 point roll cage
4 point harness's

I believe those are on top of the current rules that we have been using to date.

The idea behind those rule's is to give a degree of seperation between challenge and club class vehicles, to aid competitor safety by limiting speed potential over rough terrain with out excluding vehicles with engine transplants/modifications, and some other reason's. Also, it will allow the for the transition of Team's and vehicle's between class's with in reason, and hopefully keep big budget trucks in challenge class.

Go have your say, I've certainly had mine

[darinz]

Definately need more imput!!!!!

Please take the time to read whats been suggested, and follow the thread through as the disscussion has developed.

So far it looks like the main new rules might be:

standard winch's with no modification
one spring and shock per corner
4 point roll cage
4 point harness's

I believe those are on top of the current rules that we have been using to date.

The idea behind those rule's is to give a degree of seperation between challenge and club class vehicles, to aid competitor safety by limiting speed potential over rough terrain with out excluding vehicles with engine transplants/modifications, and some other reason's. Also, it will allow the for the transition of Team's and vehicle's between class's with in reason, and hopefully keep big budget trucks in challenge class.

Go have your say, I've certainly had mine

I'm just glad it is someone else being the opinionated prick instead of me!!!
I do believe you have shown me up as a complete amatuer

[DieselBoy]

Hahahaha, just stimulating discussion

I am so impressed that nobody has taken anything i said personally, and nobody got grumpy if my opinion was different to theirs. I am amazed

Fingers crossed they all still talk to me at the next event eh

[wopass]

So far it looks like the main new rules might be:

standard winch's with no modification
one spring and shock per corner
4 point roll cage
4 point harness's

I believe those are on top of the current rules that we have been using to date.
keep big budget trucks in challenge class.

well im out of club class if the "standard winch" rule comes in as i dont thinkyou could say the Gilies pto that came out on a select few fj40' is "standard equipment"

in fact to make it easy im just gonna flag the whole fkn debate and go challenge class less bickering about the trivial shit and i can have just as much fun doing that even tho it costs more and i break more shit and come last

[BrentC]

So me wandering next door and borrowing SHRMIN and entering Club Class as a first time competitor would be frowned upon

[darinz]

Challenge class equals play harder and party harder!!! Nothing like beating the snot out of your truck just so the beer tastes better afterwards!
Some times you just need to put it into perspective! It isn't like we are racing for prize money.
And besides with the new track setting guidelines (that everybody is after) club class won't be allowed to do 100kph and get airbourne!

[wopass]

Nothing like beating the snot out of your truck just so the beer tastes better afterwards!

And besides with the new track setting guidelines (that everybody is after) club class won't be allowed to do 100kph and get airbourne!

just another 2 good reasons why i wont be winning any prizes

[meatc]

Hahahaha, just stimulating discussion

I am so impressed that nobody has taken anything i said personally, and nobody got grumpy if my opinion was different to theirs. I am amazed

Fingers crossed they all still talk to me at the next event eh

Think we are all big boys and are all trying to achieve the same thing. Discussion is good but I bet if the whole discussion took place in a meeting there would be name calling and toys and dummies flying every where. Nothing like having a bit of time to think about comments before replying.

well im out of club class if the "standard winch" rule comes in as i dont thinkyou could say the Gilies pto that came out on a select few fj40' is "standard equipment"

Was it a factory option at some point? If so I'd have a crack at calling it standard. You may just need a old brochure to prove it.

Challenge class equals play harder and party harder!!! Nothing like beating the snot out of your truck just so the beer tastes better afterwards!

Hmm still have memories of Norwest this year. I haven't had a session like that in a very long time. 23hrs up 3 hrs sleep hmm

[darinz]

I wish I couldn't remember it. I don't know what was worse, breaking my truck, the hang over, or co-driving in a Disco!

[meatc]

Think it was a down hill spiral starting with the bad breakingthe truck and ending with the mild jog while co-ing in the disco. I would suggest lack of sleep and too many beverages lead to that decision.

You got any old gq front bump stops lying around or do I go see Scott? (he's got a 80 series parked inthe yard)

[meatc]

Back on topic.

Looks to me like the only real sticking point is in realtion to engine mods. Could be a case of can't please all the people all the time. I believe that part of the conversation is going around in circles with most options being discussed and various veiw points made. I say it may just have to be left to the rules committee to look at the arguements forand against each option and draw a line in the sand.

That is unless someone can come up with a easily policed, reasoanble option (with regard to whats currently running, fair and workable) that hasn't yet been put forward.

[DieselBoy]

Yeah man, totally going round in circles on the engine stuff.

There's just no middle ground it seem's.

It's either all or nothing.

Bog standard, or do as you please so long as it's safe.

"Bog standard" kills the entrants.

"Do as you please" seem's to make people nervous.

You think it's all over, and then Madaz throw's a curve ball into the disscussion and gets you thinking again................................

Better head out to the shed and put the tranmission back in the truck, lot's of time lying around under the truck to invent random idea's for disscussion

[mudzilla]

So me wandering next door and borrowing SHRMIN and entering Club Class as a first time competitor would be frowned upon

All these BS rules just wiped out every club truck in the country WTF

[vvega]

perhaps club class rules need to be about saftey and fun rather than limiting anything
from my understanding club class is spose to be a class for people that wanna just have a go .. see if they like it

IMO who gives a rats about wining .. for "me" doing something like this(cant currently do under the rules) is for fun and learning about driving my 4wd
if you wanna acutally compare driving and trucks etc ... do challange class leave club class for those that wanna challange themselves .. not everyone else
cause the moment its a race ... for lots of people saftey goes out the window and the red mist prevales

ehy dont i goon the challage site and air my view ... whats the point .. rules are made by the people running the event
not the compeditors ..
and really .. if the organisers want people to sign in on it they need to make rules that apeal to the wider people
the ones not interested yet .. keep making the rules to suit the current compeditors and you will get no new people

as it is its a small class but the current rules exclude ... jafa mudzilla myself and a few others i know of
the new rules that are preposed will exclude others to

people in club class arnt building trucks to suit the class .. there looking for events to have a go in
so make the rules to suit them rather than everyone else

so my submisson

rules
cage .......
saftey gear ......
turn up
and finally have fun

[Ralfie]

if the organisers want people to sign in on it they need to make rules that apeal to the wider people
the ones not interested yet .. keep making the rules to suit the current compeditors and you will get no new people

The best and most sensible comment so far...........

[DieselBoy]

people in club class arnt building trucks to suit the class .. there looking for events to have a go in
so make the rules to suit them rather than everyone else

Maaaaaaaate, you hit it on the head right there

That's exactly it all in one scentence.

Club class is about including truck's that aren't purpose built winch challenge machine's.

I might copy that over to 4x4challenge's on your behalf if thats cool, we need to get some perspective over there

[darinz]

if the organisers want people to sign in on it they need to make rules that apeal to the wider people
the ones not interested yet .. keep making the rules to suit the current compeditors and you will get no new people

The best and most sensible comment so far...........

But you also don't see that if you target one extreme end of the sport then you loss the masses! We have one extreme area covered with the Challenge class. Club class is about the better than average bush truck, it isn't for massively modified trucks, they can fit with existing rules or get enough together ad we'll start an Outlaw class.

Everyone can not be catered for in one class, so get over it.

[Jafa]

Yep totally agree with vvega, basically so long as its safe, meets all the safety requirements, (cage, roof etc) and I spose a max of 36" tires like the challenge class, (although I think any size tire is fine ) then let it run, like has been said, club class is to have fun, see if ya like/can handle it. If ya dead set on trying to win something, then build a challenge class truck, and try and beat the best, dont build a truck to beat other club trucks. I'd love to have a go at club class in my crawler, but the current rules outlaw it in a couple of areas, not the least is the tire size, but then again it has a slow as fawk winch. I dont see the problem in me rolling up and having a go in club class, even with 40" tires, but only a 4cyl engine. Its not like its going to kick arse at all, I see Bens wagon, not to mention Genes hilux, and a few others, being a far more effective winch trucks. But even if I did win, so what?, cant go any further with it, so I would have to comply with challenge class rules, aint gonna happen with this truck, or build a dedicated challenge class truck.....again, aint gonna happen (not until i shit out a gold brick).
As for an outlaw class, would mine be classed as outlaw?, if so why, is it tire size?, rear mounted rad?, I cant see what else would class it as an outlaw, its just a coiled Hilux with a 4cyl and lockers, no spaceframe, no fwd engine mounted north-south, looks nothing like a trials buggy...even has its original hilux diffs what else would cause it to be outlaw class. If the rules allowed rear mounted rads, I could bolt on a set of 36" tires, and probably be legal for club class.
So my feeling, from a purely selfish point of view of course, is to let anything safe enter in club class, so long as it has a winch, two crew and a cage.

[haynzy]

Yep totally agree with vvega, basically so long as its safe, meets all the safety requirements, (cage, roof etc) and I spose a max of 36" tires like the challenge class, (although I think any size tire is fine ) then let it run, like has been said, club class is to have fun, see if ya like/can handle it. If ya dead set on trying to win something, then build a challenge class truck, and try and beat the best, dont build a truck to beat other club trucks. I'd love to have a go at club class in my crawler, but the current rules outlaw it in a couple of areas, not the least is the tire size, but then again it has a slow as fawk winch. I dont see the problem in me rolling up and having a go in club class, even with 40" tires, but only a 4cyl engine. Its not like its going to kick arse at all, I see Bens wagon, not to mention Genes hilux, and a few others, being a far more effective winch trucks. But even if I did win, so what?, cant go any further with it, so I would have to comply with challenge class rules, aint gonna happen with this truck, or build a dedicated challenge class truck.....again, aint gonna happen (not until i shit out a gold brick).
As for an outlaw class, would mine be classed as outlaw?, if so why, is it tire size?, rear mounted rad?, I cant see what else would class it as an outlaw, its just a coiled Hilux with a 4cyl and lockers, no spaceframe, no fwd engine mounted north-south, looks nothing like a trials buggy...even has its original hilux diffs what else would cause it to be outlaw class. If the rules allowed rear mounted rads, I could bolt on a set of 36" tires, and probably be legal for club class.
So my feeling, from a purely selfish point of view of course, is to let anything safe enter in club class, so long as it has a winch, two crew and a cage.

I think the key rule to transfer from challenge class is the body/ chassis ruling, there already is a good comp series for buggies, put the rules in place to keep them out. The rear mounted radiator rule seems pointless in club class,What advantage are you gonna get if you have to retain the original body and chassis apart from a slightly better aproach angle, ya wont go faster or gain more traction.

With competitors like gene and

[rangimotors]

if the organisers want people to sign in on it they need to make rules that apeal to the wider people
the ones not interested yet .. keep making the rules to suit the current compeditors and you will get no new people

The best and most sensible comment so far...........

But you also don't see that if you target one extreme end of the sport then you loss the masses! We have one extreme area covered with the Challenge class. Club class is about the better than average bush truck, it isn't for massively modified trucks, they can fit with existing rules or get enough together ad we'll start an Outlaw class.

Everyone can not be catered for in one class, so get over it.

let anything safe enter in club class, so long as it has a winch, two crew and a cage.

what is wrong with jafa's answer? don't his rules cater to everyone who wants to enter? Does it matter if that includes a bog standard safari on 33's against a truck like wop's or jafa's? they are not racing they are there to drive the tracks, be part of it and have a go. The more rules in place the more it becomes custom built "club" trucks of which I have never been to a club event of which every vechicle would be included in anyones rules except jafa's

[vvega]

if the organisers want people to sign in on it they need to make rules that apeal to the wider people
the ones not interested yet .. keep making the rules to suit the current compeditors and you will get no new people

The best and most sensible comment so far...........

But you also don't see that if you target one extreme end of the sport then you loss the masses! We have one extreme area covered with the Challenge class. Club class is about the better than average bush truck, it isn't for massively modified trucks, they can fit with existing rules or get enough together ad we'll start an Outlaw class.

Everyone can not be catered for in one class, so get over it.

noones targeting anything at all aside from fun and giving it ago and straight up mate ... youve already lost the mass's so really what have you got to lose ??
rotorua .. 2 trucks in club class ?? am i right ?? and you think thats a good turn out ?
had they of used the rules i proposed ....
pete would have been there
jafa woudl have been there
mudzilla would have been there
and if i could for 5 mins stop ####### with my truck ... i would have gone too
so already .. we now have over doubled your attendance ... i can see why you think none would turn up

the best way you can make it safe is to take the competition out of it
if you wanna compete go challange class

if you wanna have a go learn ya limits and have a good time .. club class is for you

i think youve missed the point darin
not everyone cares about winning ... some of us just like playing the game

thats what people are tring to tell you and thats the most important fact your completely ignoring
you seam to be asking a question you just dont want a answer to

jafa mate .. i would have no issue with you driving with your 40's .. as long as i went first
i mean .. really is that not something that could be organised around ? .. order trucks by diff clearance .. run 33's and 35's befopre challange class ... and anyone with bigger after ...

im more interested in having a beer with ya and talking shit afterwards ... good times mate
this is what the people want .. give it to them
whats the wrose that can happen ... 2 people turn up ?? like what happen at rotorua
BTW i know thats not your show .. but thats the way your rules are heading

[DieselBoy]

Nah, i disagree totally. (different opinion's are good remember )

I'm looking at the the other side of the coin completely.

It is a COMPETITION.

There is no two way's about it, its the whole point.

If you want to "learn" or go have a doddle around a paddock and drive through some mud and around a couple of peg's, then a WINCH CHALLENGE is not the place for you.

The place to go and learn is at club fun day's, at club fun rally's, at club team's recoveries etc etc. All 4WD club's have these.

A Winch Challenge is for those that want a bit more of a challenge, a bit more serious competition.

As a result, if you want to participate you have to "step up" so to speak.

Stepping up in this case obviously mean's there are certain safety requirements and specification's that your truck is going to have to meet.

We are trying to taylor these specification's and requirements to such a level that your average tough club truck can enter with out to much extra modification and Money being spent.

We have ascertained, using current example's of tough club trucks, that we are not to far off the mark with our idea's.

there are a couple of issue's still, but they will be resolved some how or other i would say. Someone will who's been sitting quietly in the back ground will come up with a brilliant idea before long

Keep up the positive disscussion

[vvega]

oh and saftey of driving ... if someone starts to drive like a tool
3 strikes .. and your out .... drving to fast or completey out of control .. the organisers need to step up and tell them to clam down or #### off

i mean .. thats how EVERY OTHER motorsport is managed

i just dont get why such fundimental stuff is such a big issue

[vvega]

Nah, i disagree totally. (different opinion's are good remember )

I'm looking at the the other side of the coin completely.

It is a COMPETITION.

There is no two way's about it, its the whole point.

If you want to "learn" or go have a doddle around a paddock and drive through some mud and around a couple of peg's, then a WINCH CHALLENGE is not the place for you.

The place to go and learn is at club fun day's, at club fun rally's, at club team's recoveries etc etc. All 4WD club's have these.

A Winch Challenge is for those that want a bit more of a challenge, a bit more serious competition.

As a result, if you want to participate you have to "step up" so to speak.

Stepping up in this case obviously mean's there are certain safety requirements and specification's that your truck is going to have to meet.

We are trying to taylor these specification's and requirements to such a level that your average tough club truck can enter with out to much extra modification and Money being spent.

We have ascertained, using current example's of tough club trucks, that we are not to far off the mark with our idea's.

there are a couple of issue's still, but they will be resolved some how or other i would say. Someone will who's been sitting quietly in the back ground will come up with a brilliant idea before long

Keep up the positive disscussion

thats no issues as well as long as you understand that your competeing with the likes of jafa's truck

personally i think peoples sugestions for rules are more directed to outlaw anything else that could stop them winning

realistically pete your truck couldnt compete in the rules that were proposed .. but if they change the rules to let you in .. then why would excluding jafa's truck then be acceptable

[DieselBoy]

Oh, and don't forget, once these rule's are inplace and happening, and competition running we can vote for rule change's and modifications as time goes buy.

We are just trying to get a base set of rule's in place cause we have none.

In the future, I for one will back anyone that wants to get rear mounted radiator's allowed into the competition!!!!

I reckon it's stupid not allowing them when the whole objective of the sport is to launch your vehicle front end first into, and then proceed to drag it through, the biggest and nastiest mud hole's that the organiser's can find!!!

Putting the radiator on the rear would be a massive advantage!!!!

BUT

Now is not the time or place for the discussion to make that change.

We need a basic set of rule's up first, then build from there

Well, thats what i think today at 5pm anyways

[vvega]

whys is it a advantage ?? guys are carrying round 3 or more to swap in and out as required .. so 5 mins later and there cranking again

i agree on a bush trip its a massive advantage
and if the rules said.. you have to use the same rad for the event ... so you have to clean it rather than swap it out .. then year agreed

but really guys are ripping out rad's .. scalding hot water is involved i know there prolly doing it as safe as they can .. but really its dangerious as hell

where as a rear mount thes not in the same cabin space as you is way safer

the proposal is still the same
the rules

cage 4 point
saftey gear
turn up
dont drive like a tool or in a unsafe manor of you will be asked to leave

have fun

im not trying to be a tool pete but you cant say you want inclusion and then make rules to outlaw .. its a contradiction
i mean even the stock winch arguement is silly ... have to have a stock winch .. but you can fit a electric one .....that isint stock
i mean seriously WTF ?
oh and lubs ... im honestly not tring to be a ####

[Jafa]

jafa mate .. i would have no issue with you driving with your 40's .. as long as i went first
i mean .. really is that not something that could be organised around ? .. order trucks by diff clearance .. run 33's and 35's befopre challange class ... and anyone with bigger after ...

I don't really have an issue with running smaller tires, I can see that I'll be banging my head against a brick wall trying to convince anyone that I dont do nearly as much damage with 4cyl and 40's compared to a 300hp v8 spinning 36's, someone's already run off whining to the organisers of the Gwavas challenge about my 40's so now we've had a call from the man saying, "forget the 40's mate, you wanna enter then find some 35's". No amount of talking was going to change his mind, he hasn't seen me or my truck, but his preconceived ideas led him to think I was going to wreck all the tracks for everyone else

[Jafa]

PS... I think only two club class entries at Rotovegas was because land access required WOF for all vehicles

[wopass]

someone's already run off whining to the organisers of the Gwavas challenge about my 40's so now we've had a call from the man saying, "forget the 40's mate, you wanna enter then find some 35's". No amount of talking was going to change his mind, he hasn't seen me or my truck, but his preconceived ideas led him to think I was going to wreck all the tracks for everyone else

bet it was pete who winged small truck syndrome

but seriously man thats pretty shitty probably the same people that have been bitching and winging about Gene and me in club class even tho they beat me everytime ... Gene i can understand cos hes a burgler


Bwahaha

and yea Jafa's correct about the land access for rotovegas, if you want to be on the land, you have to have a wof and reg. plain and simple really