350 chev issues

[Petemcc]

Hi guys.

About 6 months ago i sold the old motor out of my jet boat to a guy up north and tonight he rang me to say he finally started it on the weekend and it ran for 3 min before seizing!

When i pulled the motor out it seemed to be running fine. Was smooth etc. It wasn't the best motor in the world but I would have happily sold it to a mate for the right price.

The guy is asking for half his money back ($750 , he payed 1500) as parts of the motor are still good ie heads, marine exhaust manifolds etc. If it is possible that this is my fault then I am happy to do that (When i manage to come up with $75o which i dont just have lying around anymore!)

He has said that the motor has run the bottom end bearing (not big ends from what i gathered this its the ones on that go conrods onto crank rather than the crank onto block) he said that it has actually spun the bearings in the casings or something.

I last had the motor running about the 15th of jan so it had been sitting for a good 9 months. What would a normal start up procedure be? When i got my new motor they said to prime the oil pump with a drill and under no circumstances wind it over with the starter. Would this be the same after sitting for that long as oil would have drained to the bottom of the motor?

He said that he primed the oil with the starter untill it had pressure before trying to start it then ran it up in his shed and it seemed fine with about 30 psi oil pressure when cold (it used to run about 55 when cold at about 2500 when i had it but our guages could cause this error. then he took the boat to the water was off the trailer for about 3 min when it started to seize and he nursed it back to the trailer.

when he pulled it apart there were heaps of filings in the bottom of the sump and the bearing where well stuffed.

Could anything he has done cause this or is it most likely that the motor was about to give up and it was just luck that it happen when i sold it to him rather than the last time i started it.

He said he has a fair bit of knowledge with motors and has been involved in jet boating / racing for a while and i have no reason to doubt this, I obviously don't know him but he seems legit.

(the thing i find weird is he seems to have a fair bit of money and apparently has built lots of flash boats before and this one doesn't seem to be a budget build so why go for an old $1500 chev when you could put a lexus or better chev for bugger all money but thats not really the point and is up to him haha)


any thoughs???

Cheers
Pete

[callum007]

after 9 months i'd reckon your second hand parts warranty is well over. i'd offer sympathy but he could also have run the motor 20 hours a week for 9 months and be pulling your tit..

[Sadam_Husain]

he finally started it on the weekend and it ran for 3 min before seizing!

Dunno its a hard one?
If the guys a bit of an engine guru and he ran it for 3 minutes without picking up anything was wrong then I'd say it was probably running ok to the best of your knowledge when you sold it to him?

It must have spun the bearings after he ran it or he would have picked it up during the 3 minutes it was running

[wopass]

after that amount of time tell him to get real. did you offer a 6 month garuntee with the motor?

he could have done anything to it in that time, and if its been sitting that long the bearings would have been dry and yea would have spun them if they werent primed first etc etc,

nothing you could have done to prevent that.

[muddyhilux]

im gonna agree with both replys,nothing youve done would have avoided this and if he is such a guru then he should have picked something up,i tend to prime things with oil then turn over by hand a number of times with plugs removed so i can check to feel for anything major aswell before running,dont give him a cent

[vvega]

agreed ... motors dont just spin bearings after 3 mins
+ if hes such a motor guru ... if he saw 30 psi cold oil pressure he would have known somthings up

30 psi is WAY low .... way way to low

and yes minimum of prime the pump
id be expecting it turned over by hand a min of once a month to keep the bore minty fresh

smells fishy to me

... he may have put a cam in it or something and got dirt in there ... so many variables

[wopass]

He said that he primed the oil with the starter untill it had pressure before trying to start it then ran it up in his shed and it seemed fine with about 30 psi oil pressure when cold

Pete

just re read and from this bit thats his problem

hes spun it over with the starter after its been sitting for how long?? 6 months!!! thats spun bearings right there!! not much of an engine guru

and just to re fresh, did yuou offer a garuntee? in writing? if not then as usual when buying second hand stuff. buyer beware. his problem no refund

[Petemcc]

Cheers guys thats what i like to hear! Now to tell him that... hmm i don't think he will be very happy! haha

Cheers
Pete

[Petemcc]

An update.

Today I emailed him this

Dear Mike,

I have been talking to a few people who are rather experienced with engine building and the general consensus is that with a motor that has been sitting for 9 months without being started it is essential to prime the oil
pump manually (drill down the dissy hole) rather than with the starter motor as you told me you did last night. Here are some quotes from emails I have recieved.

"If the guys a bit of an engine guru and he ran it for 3 minutes without picking up anything was wrong then I'd say it was probably running ok to the best of your knowledge when you sold it to him?

It must have spun the bearings after he ran it or he would have picked it up during the 3 minutes it was running"

"
after that amount of time tell him to get real. did you offer a 6 month garuntee with the motor?

he could have done anything to it in that time, and if its been sitting that long the bearings would have been dry and yea would have spun them if they werent primed first etc etc,

nothing you could have done to prevent that."


"hes spun it over with the starter after its been sitting for how long?? 6 months!!! thats spun bearings right there!! not much of an engine guru

and just to re fresh, did yuou offer a garuntee? in writing? if not then as usual when buying second hand stuff. buyer beware. his problem no refund"


I sympathise with you situation but like I said when I pulled the motor it was running fine to the best of my knowledge, last time i took it out it ran like it always had. If the bearings where that stuffed when I sold it to
then surely it wouldn't have sounded too good last time i used it? And surely you would have noticed something was wrong immediatly rather than 3 min into a run.

If you would like to talk to me further about this issue then please do this via email.

Regards
Pete

[Petemcc]

This evening he left a message on my phone stating that he did not want to talk to me via email and if i did not call him back he would come to chch as he knows where i live!

I just checked my emails and found this reply

Pete,The motor was run up properly 13 days after recieving it. I noted the oil pressure was only 35 lbs at that stage. Not too concerned as it was not under load and only ran between 2-2500 rpm. Ran for approx. 1-2 minutes.All this is documented by an independent professional for this very reason. I believe this motor has been damaged due to lack of oil changes and hence why you asked me "has it still got the same oil filter on?". The oil in the sump looked brand new oil, the inlet manifold had just been put back on and the exhaust manifolds had been removed and not replaced. All leeds to the motor has been apart for some reason recently.Our conversation leads me to believe that you where selling something other than what you where describing in the ""trade me" advertisement. This is in complete contrast to the rules of "trade me" and the fair trading act. It is not a case of "buyer beware" it is a case of misleading the Buyer.My first offer is still available because I believe that is a fair and reasonable offer considering the circumstances. Other options are available but could end up costing alot more. Regards,Mike

[Petemcc]

I have written the below email but have not sent it yet. What do you guys think?

Dear Mike,

Thanks for contacting me via email. I was out tonight and did not have my phone on me however with the threatening tatics you are using I would rather not talk to you on the phone. If you want to sort this out this is the way to do it.

The motor always had regular oil changes in the time that I had it. The oil and filter were clean as I had reciently done a change. The motor had run appoximatley 10 hours with this oil boating on the lake and towing water skiers. I asked if the filter was still the same as i was going to suggest you cut it open as i like to do each change to see what is inside filings wise. The reson I stopped myself after saying this is that I realised there was no point as you had taken the sump off and found fillings in there.

You told me yesterday that both times you started the motor you primed the oil with the starter motor, which I have been informed is not the correct procedure for a motor that has been sitting for a number of months. You said that the first time you ran the motor you noted the oil pressure was down but you were not conerned. You also stated that the motor sounded good the first time you ran it. You are suggesting that I knew of the damage to the bearings which would mean they were damaged last time I used the motor. Surely if they were damaged enough to spin in three minutes of running the motor would have sounded quite bad the last time I used it as well as the first time you started it which it did not.

It has been suggested to me that the reason of failure of the bearings was due to improper oil priming after the motor had be sitting. From what you have said it was 6 months between the first time you started it when it ran fine and the second time you started it when it ran for 3 minutes after you primed the oil with the starter motor.

I am a resonable person. I believed the motor to be running fine when it was removed from the boat and later put on tradme. If you can prove to me that the motor had stuffed bearings before I sold it to you then I am happy to try and sort out some sort of refund. If this is the case I would have to pay the money off over time as I don't just have $750 lying around. However I will need some sort of proof.

I do not consider this problem to be over, I would like to resolve it so that we are both content with the outcome. You have to see where I am coming from as well. I considered the motor to be fine when I sold it. I consulted people with knowledge on the subject all of which stated that the failure would have been due to an error on your part. I don't have money to throw around and will not just agree to give you $750 because you threaten me.

Regards,
Pete


edit. haha have already found some wording errors

[Petemcc]

I don't want to piss this guy off. If i have sold him a stuffed motor then I am happy to sort out some sort of payment over time but I need to make sure that this is the case.

Does anyone know a Mike Hill in Hastings? If so what's he like? Is he he legit? It seems to me like he is not lieing and that he honestly believes that the motor was stuffed when he got it. In which case he will be following this up as best he can and will not just drop it if I tell him to get stuffed. (and if I was him I would probably do the same)

Cheers
Pete

[Sadam_Husain]

All this is documented by an independent professional for this very reason.

Can you ask him to forward you a copy of this documentation

ovbiously it can be "verified" as it was done by an "Independant Professional"

Come to think of it why would he involve an independant professional when he started the engine?


Mate this guys pulling your tit

[Petemcc]

How long would a motor run with stuffed bearings (in a boat at between 3000 and 4200 rpm) before they were noticable / stuffed an spun!.

I had done a head gasket a few months earlier which is why the intake manifold had new gaskets on it. This was when i did the oil change as well and as stated I had done around 10 hours boating since this. I had thought that this issue was solved as the head gaskets were no longer leaking and the motor had been running mint.

Could a short run (about 15 min) with milky oil when the gaskets when have caused enough damage for the bearings to be stuffed 10 hours (and 3 min!) later but without me noticing anything that last time I used the motor?

[Sadam_Husain]

You'd be best off to keep all your communications with this joker via email so theres a record of what you both say rather than phone calls where either party can deny they said something

[Petemcc]

yea good call. cheers

[muddyhilux]

im gonna agree with sadam on this one,why is there someone being brought in when this guy is suposibly a guru,it all sounds sus to me,and with all things mentioned re eng work i dont think youve damaged it,im pretty confident that you would have noticed something ae,like weve all said it really does sound like a priming issue,and like he said he ran it and noted 35psi oil presure BUT WAS HAPPY with that,end of story,he cant say hes happy and then change his mind

[vvega]

if i brought a motor with 35 psi of oil pressure on startup .. id rebuild it because IMO its fucked

hes talking rubbish

also we've had NUMEROUS cars with el cheapo gauges comming in and reading real low .. put our calibrated guage in here and its fine

and as above sadam has game

[skid]

All this is documented by an independent professional for this very reason.

Can you ask him to forward you a copy of this documentation

ovbiously it can be "verified" as it was done by an "Independant Professional"

Come to think of it why would he involve an independant professional when he started the engine?


Mate this guys pulling your tit

yup, I'm with Sadam on this one.

As soon as I read those words, I thought that it was a little odd that would have an "independent proffessional" just hanging around when you first start the engine


that "independent proffessional" was probably holding a stubbie and waiting with a few of the boys for the start up, as we have all done in the past.

stick to your guns and good luck dude

[Pedro]

You'd be best off to keep all your communications with this joker via email so theres a record of what you both say rather than phone calls where either party can deny they said something

record the phone calls if you can, make sure you tell him they are being recorded first, if he don't agree do it anyway, i don't think you need his permission, he needs to be aware, also record the telling him bit, if it gets ugly you have his voice, tone and insinuations of what could "happen"

or like you say keep it on e-mail !!

Cheers

pedro

[Petemcc]

if i brought a motor with 35 psi of oil pressure on startup .. id rebuild it because IMO its fucked

As I said earlier when I had the motor cold oil pressure was alwasy about double this if not more (dead cold i remember it gettting closet to 70/80ish when revved but it was a while ago so cant be sure) and when warm from memory it settled about 45ish and my guage was cheap as.

How does oil pressure get down? Just through general wear? Could anything in the way he started the motor have caused the low pressure or is it more likely his guage is stuffed? ( or mine was reading high but i doubt this is the case as i use it on my new motor and beleive it reads a little low if anything, - hope it doesnt read high or my new crate motor isnt in the best condition haha)

[Disco-Blue]

I'd say he's dicking you around Pete plus like anything second hand its buyer beware. Has he sent you any pics of the engine to show its actually got the problems he says it does...


For all you know his wife could have pulled the handbrake on and he wants to get some money back to keep her happy haha

[vvega]

if i brought a motor with 35 psi of oil pressure on startup .. id rebuild it because IMO its fucked

As I said earlier when I had the motor cold oil pressure was alwasy about double this if not more (dead cold i remember it gettting closet to 70/80ish when revved but it was a while ago so cant be sure) and when warm from memory it settled about 45ish and my guage was cheap as.

How does oil pressure get down? Just through general wear? Could anything in the way he started the motor have caused the low pressure or is it more likely his guage is stuffed? ( or mine was reading high but i doubt this is the case as i use it on my new motor and beleive it reads a little low if anything, - hope it doesnt read high or my new crate motor isnt in the best condition haha)

oil pressure will go down if you spin bearings
or your pump sucks in something nasty .... or the head falls off

COLD start up .. anything over 60 psi is good .. 70-80 psi is what i would expect from a good engine... providing you have a 80 psi relief valve ..

anything over 40-45 when warm and running is good