Club Class Winch challenge rules etc

[vvega]

The only thing I have any power over is getting discussion happening. Which based upon the current feedback I'm doing quite well! I can't change or create rule nor can ANYONE else. All we are doing is formalising what the masses want. And sorry vvega and jaffa but you aren't the masses so either play along or set up you own events.

Fair enough

[DieselBoy]

The only thing I have any power over is getting discussion happening. Which based upon the current feedback I'm doing quite well! I can't change or create rule nor can ANYONE else. All we are doing is formalising what the masses want. And sorry vvega and jaffa but you aren't the masses so either play along or set up you own events.

Fair enough

Consider your selves told

[monstr]

I have had a good talk to Tony who will be the Event manager for the Club class next year at Norwest and this is what we are looking at running with
1/ As long as the vehical was able to be a road legal 4x4 when it was used in NZ i"e no tube framed buggies
2/ same specs as last years comp i"e no limit on lockers.winches,engine transplants
3 Reg/ wof not required but must be up to wof standard re brakes steering etc
4/ a min 4 point roll cage in hard top trucks and a min 6 point in soft tops with either a steel or Ali top fitted as per 4x4 challenges rules
5 Penalties will be scored same as 4x4 challenges
6/ min 4 point harness
all other 4x4 challenges rules will apply


So basicly its the same as the last comps weve done except for the roll cage /harness rules
any questions fire away
cheers

[350cruiser]

thanks steve
count me in for this comp next year. thanks for clarification on the rules for that comp

[DieselBoy]

Just got back from the Manukau Winch Challenge and had a total BLAST

I'm all fired up about the Wheel Spin rule's, so while I'm in that mood, would be interested to start a debate and get everyone's interpretations of it out there

The rules that I'm curious about are:



To me, the rule's are not clear cut enough for the Marshals to be able to do a fair job.

I would hate to be in their situation.

"In the marshals view" means its their call, so they have to make a decision on the spot.

They have to some how decided, on the spot, if you are cutting the track up unfairly for the trailing competitors.

According to the rule, if the Marshal decides the wheel spin is excessive, you must commence winching after the hooter has been sounded once.

Sooooo, my questions are:

Where the hell did this warning blast of the horn that we seem to get come from and what does it mean??

If you are a marshal on the spot, how do you tell if the track is being cut up unfairly, or if the track is being cut up fairly??

Is it 5 seconds of wheel spin and sound the hooter, so the competitor has to commence winching??

Is it wheel spin untill the vehicle has stopped moving, then sound the hooter to prevent the vehicle from digging holes??

Then there's the "Deemed Stuck" rule.

Loss of traction and forward momentum is what the rule say's

Thats nice and clean cut.

Couple that with the wheel spin rule, and you have interesting situation.

Take a senario for example:

One stage we did we were first up on it, it hadn't been driven yet buy anyone, not even during track setting.

The stage was up hill through a spring fed swamp approx 100m in length, the start box back on the hard slippery clay.

Right on "GO" is the big clutch dump in 3rd low, heaps of wheel spin , heaps of rev's, heaps of mud flying, and that didn't stop until i crossed the swamp and hit the clay bank at the far end and had to winch.

During that whole time, i heard the hooter go at least twice, if not more, over noise in the cab.

The first was as my rear wheels entered the swamp and the rooster tails started.

According to the rule, i should have stopped right there and winched.

According to the apparent Marshal practice, it was just a warning??

Either way I wasn't going to button off. If i had i would have sunk and had to winch through the swamp. That would have cost time. Considering the competition is against the clock, that wouldn't have been sensible as winching is a lot slower than driving something.

The rest of the trucks in our group were a lot heavier and got only a 3rd of the way through the swamp before they sunk and had to winch.

Its much the same as spinning your wheels all the way up a hill, but making the hill climb with out having to winch, versus spinning your wheels all the way up a hill and being pulled up for excessive wheel spin, forcing you to winch when you otherwise would have driven the hill.

I say that, as I ignored the marshals hooter for excessive wheel spin serveral different time's midway up a hill. I had plenty of wheel spin going on, but the vehicle was still moving forwards fairly rapidly, and was still climbing the hill nicely, but they wanted me to stop and winch for some reason.

Fair enough if the vehicle clearly isn't going to make the hill climb and is just making a mess and digging holes, but at least wait untill that point.

I would like to know the proper interpretation of the that rule, and exactly how the marshal's are told and are going police it in the future.

As it stands at the moment you might as well hook your winch on from the start box

Looking forward to a good constructive discussion on this one folks

[BrentC]

It's a Winch Challenge Pete

As soon as your wheels are spinning faster than you are moving - the Marshal should give one hoot to warn you - then hoot for every excessive wheel spin penalty after that warning.

Funny thing I heard about Saturday was that there had been a complaint from the competitors that the marshals were too lenient - as a consequence on Sunday we were told to sharpen up on our hooting skills

In your scenario about rooster tailing like a Trial Truck across a bog and the hill climb - I would have been giving you a 10 point penalty every 20 seconds or so after the initial warning

[NJV6]

Agree with Pete,

Sure its a winch challenge but what the hell is the point of winching when you can drive?

Do you run controlled hazards?
Taken from http://www.mainlandwinchchallenges.co.nz/?q=node/22

13.18 Controlled Hazard:
This is an area where you are not permitted to re align or make a second attempt. Should you do so you will be penalised without warning. This will be clearly indicated by entry markers on both sides of the track indicating the start of the hazard and two similar markers of a different colour or shape to indicate the exit of the hazard. When both front wheels pass the imaginary line between the entry markers and loss of forward momentum or excessive wheel spin is experienced, you must commence winching. Repositioning is still allowed to ensure safe winching practice. Winching may cease when the competitor thinks he has full traction.
10 points

Any other situation the driver can have as many goes as he/she wants... 9 out of 10 times by the time they have bashed their truck against a bank they think they can climb 3 times it would ahve been quicker to winch anyway so why not let the drivers keep going???

[BrentC]

Do you run controlled hazards?

I don't think there were any in last weekends event

[DieselBoy]

It's a Winch Challenge Pete

As soon as your wheels are spinning faster than you are moving - the Marshal should give one hoot to warn you - then hoot for every excessive wheel spin penalty after that warning.

Funny thing I heard about Saturday was that there had been a complaint from the competitors that the marshals were too lenient - as a consequence on Sunday we were told to sharpen up on our hooting skills

In you scenario about rooster tailing like a Trial Truck across a bog - I would have been giving you a 10 point penalty every 20 seconds or so

Your not kidding its a winch challenge

So where did you drag this out from??

As soon as your wheels are spinning faster than you are moving - the Marshal should give one hoot to warn you - then hoot for every excessive wheel spin penalty after that warning.

Thats not in the rules anywhere??


And as for this:

In you scenario about rooster tailing like a Trial Truck across a bog - I would have been giving you a 10 point penalty every 20 seconds or so

Also where does it say in the rules about a penalty every 20 sec's??

Thats my case in point, there's all this stuff floating around from the marshals which isn't anywhere in the rules, so we have no idea whats going on

So your saying your not allowed to attack a bog or a hill and see if you can get through it further than the other competitors before you have to winch, thus increasing your chance's of beating them, instead you should drive up to it like a nanna and stop and winch??


Anyways, this might help me make a bit more sense



Its so inconsistent with how we are being marshalled its not funny

Please don't say "It's a Winch Challenge" again Brent, we all know that

I just want some clarification, I'm not a seasoned competitor, in fact I struggle to take competition seriously most of the time

I just sort of came away with the feeling that I didn't know what i was actually allowed to do, even though I new the rules, if i had stuck to them, I would have finished so badly last I might as well have just stayed home.

I think basically we all go as hard and as fast as we can get away with, and just keep pushing the boundaries untill we get hootered by the marshals, then drag the winch out

[DieselBoy]

Do you run controlled hazards?

I don't think there were any in last weekends event

There is a rule for controlled hazards where you have to winch from a set point:



So in the case of the up hill swamp scenario, would that have been better to have been a controlled hazard rather than getting a penailty every 20 sec's of wheel spin??

Any other situation the driver can have as many goes as he/she wants... 9 out of 10 times by the time they have bashed their truck against a bank they think they can climb 3 times it would ahve been quicker to winch anyway so why not let the drivers keep going???

Yeah there is something in the rules about that:



Its good having your Marshals perspective Brent, don't take me the wrong way please!!!!!!!!

This is all good nature'd on my part ok

[Andrew1706]

I watched you on stage 6 I think it was, the size of your vehicle coupled with your type of tire I don't think you were at risk of causing too much track damage.

On the other hand, the Safaris on Simexs should be more worried of the rule, as soon as they wheelspin they dig holes that would swallow your Suzi whole

I did see one guy get tooted and verbally told by the marshalls at the start of stage 1 one just before the bridge, he had his right wheel stuck against a little outcrop and could have quite easy driven out of it (reverse right hand down, forward left hand down etc) which is what his navi was saying but he just nailed it and threw mud everywhere.

Stage 5 was interesting with the tight left hand turn at the top, the marshall there was quite good, a few trucks were wheelspinning going nowhere and a few came through with enough momentum that made him lift his hooter up as if to get ready but saw they were making progress and let them go.

[J_Dub]

i agree its a bit confusing, the rules are clear, but you have the big turboed Saf,s flicking shit everywhere all the time, fish tailing up a hill, though not digging holes... Is that excessive wheel spin?
then you have excessive wheel spin in an already minced up bog where you gota give it shit to get through... is that wheel spin?

the way i see it is, each stage will be a little different due to how that team of marshalls are as a team, they work together and are consistant with their ruleing, so long as they are consistant all day, then its fair... then the same the next stage, the team of marshalls might be a little harder or more leniant.... so long as they are consistant throughout the whole day than its all fair... just how i see it, cause its not just the marshalls and how they are, but the views of the competators, some push the boundaries, some follow the rules perfectly, so long as the team of marshalls are consistant for each stage then sweeeet

[BrentC]

Its good having your Marshals perspective Brent, don't take me the wrong way please!!!!!!!!

This is all good nature'd on my part ok

It's all good Pete - It's only our second event as well - as I did the start and finish on stage 10 - I left any wheel spin calls to my marshals with guidence from George who was helping us out

It is after all the competitors event - marshals are only supposed to adjudicate on competitors agreed rules

[bigT]

its really looking at a intermediate class between the two where you have the bog standard trucks and the people who want to compete on a harder track but not as hard as the challange guys and do so much damage. What does every one think because my new truck wont comply with standard rules and i dont wont to compete in challange, and everyone is then caterd for??????? Maybe look at starting this of at Norwest next year.

[wopass]

if you are still moving forward you can pull the numbers.

if you are just spinning the hell out of it and not going to achieve anything then exessive wheel spin.

but if your still moving and can clear the hazzard then let it eat

[Sadam_Husain]

whenever applying a rule you always have to bear in mind the intent of the rule

I'm sure the intent is to prevent vehicles digging holes when they have lost forward momentum and not penalising people for driving accross slippry ground with little traction

You'll never get consistency between marshalls but so long as each marshall applies his interpritation of the rule consistantly to all competitors on his stage it still keeps it relatively fair

[jeremy]

It's pretty simple really (at least as a competitor) - if you hear the horn, you must stop & winch. Or if you are winching, you must stop what has just been classed as excessive wheel spin.

The marshals obviously have a bit of a harder job - they need to decide what is un-fair track damage and what is not, and they need to rule consistently for all competitors. But the key phrase in both of those rules is "in the view of the marshal". It doesn't really matter if you think your wheel spin is excessive or not, or if you were stuck or not - if the marshal does, then he should blast the air horn and if you don't stop you should be penalised. I know it's frustrating at times when you think you've been un-fairly disadvantaged, but I've found that marshals always realise the importance of consistency, whether they've been taught that or not, so everyone will be getting the same treatment.

I thought some of the marshals were rather tough in their application of those two rules, and others, like J_Dub, ruled much like I would've. But it's not really for any of us to say what is tough or not, as it's up to the individual marshal and their "view" (opinion).

The important thing to remember when working with and applying all the competition rules, is that both competitors and marshals should stick to what is written. Arbitrary rulings such as getting a penalty every 20 seconds of excessive wheel spin, or arguing that a penalty shouldn't be given because as a competitor you thought your wheel spin was not excessive are not included anywhere in the rules and so are simply un-fair.

However, if you think that the rules are not being applied as they are written, then you have every right to dispute a penalty as per rule 26.31.

And having said all that, if anyone has any better ideas of how we can manage wheel spin and stuck'ness - we'd love to hear them. Visit http://www.4x4challenges.org.nz/rules, read the bit about making a rules submission, and send your ideas through to the rules committee.

[BrentC]

Arbitrary rulings such as getting a penalty every 20 seconds of excessive wheel spin

Are you saying that 3 minutes of excessive wheel spin after one warning blast that is ignored is only worth one ten point penalty?

[jeremy]

Arbitrary rulings such as getting a penalty every 20 seconds of excessive wheel spin

Are you saying that 3 minutes of excessive wheel spin after one warning blast that is ignored is only worth one ten point penalty?

Nope - if they don't stop keep blasting the air horn, and for each blast they ignore they get a penalty.

[monstr]

Arbitrary rulings such as getting a penalty every 20 seconds of excessive wheel spin

Are you saying that 3 minutes of excessive wheel spin after one warning blast that is ignored is only worth one ten point penalty?

As i understand the rules ,If you continue after the blast on the air horn the marshal should then give you another blast indicating that you have been given a penalty and if you ignore that and continue you will get another blast/ penalty and so on and so on you could end up with several penaltys . you could also get a stage disqualifcation for failing to follow the marshals instructions etc

[jeremy]

Arbitrary rulings such as getting a penalty every 20 seconds of excessive wheel spin

I know sometimes it seems like a competitor should be penalised for something that they did, but if it's not written in black & white in the rules, then penalising them for that is unfair. It may have just been by mistake that they did it, or it may have been intentional after reading the rules and finding a loop hole - either way you can imagine how you would feel wronged for being penalised for something that is allowable under the current rules.

And often it is just those sort of situations which prompt a new rule, or an alteration to an existing rule.

Sorry Brent, I didn't mean to pick on you so I hope it didn't sound that way, but it was just a good example. I've been the recipient and the marshal giving out such penalties, so it's from experience that I've learnt the importance of sticking to what's written (unfortunately you cant really argue when a competitor opens the rule book and shows you where you've gone wrong).

[J_Dub]

how come you didnt compete over the weekend jeremy? saw your truck there, just not in action

[jeremy]

As i understand the rules ,If you continue after the blast on the air horn the marshal should then give you another blast indicating that you have been given a penalty and if you ignore that and continue you will get another blast/ penalty and so on and so on you could end up with several penaltys . you could also get a stage disqualifcation for failing to follow the marshals instructions etc

Not quite, 26.20 Excessive Wheel Spin says:

... "If you continue with excessive wheel spin you will be penalised."

and 26.21 Deemed Stuck says:

... "If you continue to drive you will be penalised."

It doesn't say if you continue you will be warned with another blast. If you continue you will be penalised.

Yes, a few years back there used to be a 'double-blast' as a penalty warning, but that was removed to simplify things for competitors and marshals.

Also note that the marshal only needs to give 10 penalties to effectively disqualify a team from a stage as the best possible score is 100 points (all penalties are worth 10 points, except for obviously the stage disqualification and event disqualification penalties).

[jeremy]

how come you didnt compete over the weekend jeremy? saw your truck there, just not in action

All sorts of reasons, but really I just couldn't get organised in time as I've been too busy with other things. And yes I was having all the usual withdraw symptoms as it looked like a whole lot of fun

[DieselBoy]

As i understand the rules ,If you continue after the blast on the air horn the marshal should then give you another blast indicating that you have been given a penalty and if you ignore that and continue you will get another blast/ penalty and so on and so on you could end up with several penaltys . you could also get a stage disqualifcation for failing to follow the marshals instructions etc

Not quite, 26.20 Excessive Wheel Spin says:

... "If you continue with excessive wheel spin you will be penalised."

and 26.21 Deemed Stuck says:

... "If you continue to drive you will be penalised."

It doesn't say if you continue you will be warned with another blast. If you continue you will be penalised.

Yes, a few years back there used to be a 'double-blast' as a penalty warning, but that was removed to simplify things for competitors and marshals.

Also note that the marshal only needs to give 10 penalties to effectively disqualify a team from a stage as the best possible score is 100 points (all penalties are worth 10 points, except for obviously the stage disqualification and event disqualification penalties).

That was my point.

According to the rule's, there is no warning to be given.

If you get "hootered", you must stop.

No warning blast or anything, just stop as soon as you are told to by the marshal. If you don't you get a penalty.

If you had excessive wheel spin happening, and you stopped, that would mean you would be most likely stuck. You wouldn't be able to re-align because you need full traction to do so, so basically the marshal is saying your stuck and must start winching.

So how are the excessive wheel spin rule and the deemed stuck rule different??

They are worded differently, but mean or at least lead to the same scenario.

I'm not trying to change the world, just trying to understand it

It just seems to me that what the actual rule says, is out of touch with what the competitors and marshals are doing.

Competitors and marshals are using the first horn blast as a warning for wheel spin, then the competitor, as they haven't lost forward momentum and technically aren't deemed stuck, are re-aligning and having another go. Basically having multiple attempts if they like, as long as they aren't deemed stuck through loss of forward momentum.

My Point is

According to the rules as soon as they are pulled up for wheel spin, they are actually stuck. In order to have excessive wheel spin, you have to have loss of traction and a decrease in forward momentum. According to the rule, you can not re-align unless you have full traction, so if you got pulled up for wheel spin you obviously do not have full traction.

Not having full traction means you can't re-align and have another attempt. So you must commence winching from that point.

Therefore, from that very first horn blast, you have been deemed stuck, and must commence winching.

So its all on the marshals shoulders as to what is "Fair " damage to the stage, and what is "un-fair" damage to the stage.

Its is that critical point that the marshal must make the decision on, on the spot, and tell a competitor to get the winch out........


Can anyone else interpret it that way as well?? Or am I just being strange

[jeremy]

That was my point.

According to the rule's, there is no warning to be given.

If you get "hootered", you must stop.

No warning blast or anything, just stop as soon as you are told to by the marshal. If you don't you get a penalty.

If you had excessive wheel spin happening, and you stopped, that would mean you would be most likely stuck. You wouldn't be able to re-align because you need full traction to do so, so basically the marshal is saying your stuck and must start winching.

As it says at the start of the competition rules section, the spirit of the event is that "only one attempt to clear an obstacle will be made by driving". But these two rules, (the air horn rules) mean that if you're smart and realise you have the wrong line, you can back of, re-align and get it right so long as you don't get 'hootered' for being either deemed stuck or for excessive wheel spin.

So how are the excessive wheel spin rule and the deemed stuck rule different??

Deemed stuck is about having lost forward momentum, and Excessive wheel spin is about track damage (which of-course is all in the wording of these rules). You can loose forward momentum without causing unfair damage to the track and vice-versa. We tried a few years back to join the two rules together, but couldn't come up with a simple rule which covered both of these two situations.

I'm not trying to change the world, just trying to understand it

No, please do try change the world if you can come up with a better way of doing things

[jeremy]

Can anyone else interpret it that way as well?? Or am I just being strange

I see what you're saying Pete - but do you think that it's a problem with the rules themselves or more so how they were implemented/enforced

I saw a couple of instances last weekend where a marshal blasted the air horn for excessive wheel spin (the vehicle was still moving forward) and then the driver let of the gas but continued to drive, and then soon after got blast as the rpm began to climb again, and this happened several times without any penalty. Of-course that was not within the rules, as every time they were hootered (I like that term btw) they should've stopped and winched and because they didn't they should've been penalised.

I can't remember seeing that sort of scenario occur at any other event I've been too, so it may not be a common occurrence. Of-course having experienced marshals would go a long way to reducing these sorts of errors, but it seems all the experienced marshals end up either in a more 'official' event organisers role or competing.

4x4Challenges have got someone working on something that will be a big help towards training newbie marshals - more on that later

[Ralfie]

Bottom line that are the rules and the marshals applied it as they were instructed.

It is after all a winch competition and not a driving or trials event. The idea is to set up and winch faster than the other guy, not drive further, harder or faster. There are other events for those who want to do that.

If you don't like the rules don't compete.
If you want to compete accept the rules applied and stop the moaning.

If you want to change the rules then do so in the appropriate manner which is not through a public forum.

Write your own rules and then run your own event if you don't like the rules as written.

[DieselBoy]

Bottom line that are the rules and the marshals applied it as they were instructed.

It is after all a winch competition and not a driving or trials event. The idea is to set up and winch faster than the other guy, not drive further, harder or faster. There are other events for those who want to do that.

If you don't like the rules don't compete.
If you want to compete accept the rules applied and stop the moaning.

If you want to change the rules then do so in the appropriate manner which is not through a public forum.

Write your own rules and then run your own event if you don't like the rules as written.

[Ralfie]

Yep yet another stuff up by 4x4 challenges and their rules. They can't even define the event correctly.