Club Class Winch challenge rules etc

[DieselBoy]

Can anyone else interpret it that way as well?? Or am I just being strange

I see what you're saying Pete - but do you think that it's a problem with the rules themselves or more so how they were implemented/enforced

I'm not sure. I guess its just the wording used in the rules, in that if taken literally (exactly as written), mean something slightly different to the intent behind the rule.

What i'm trying to say, is that now i have more of an idea of the intent of the rule/rules, after you and others have explained it since my first post, it is only loosely conveyed in the wording of the rules.



Just play along with me here.........

The word "warn" should go in the wheel spin rule, as it is contradictory to the rest of the rule. There can be no warning, if "you must commence winching" once you have been hootered. Thats not a warning, thats an instruction.

I know the intent is that the blast of the air horn is to indicate that there would be a penalty issued unless the competitor stopped trying to drive and started winching.

But thats not what the rule actually says, if taken literally, as would happen if you were trying to work out what you can and can't get away with

Same deal with the Deemed stuck.

Hey, I might have the wrong end of the stick altogether.

I know its primarily a driving competition (despite what others might think), so the intent of the rules are to draw the line between winching and driving and buggering the track for the other competitors.

So if your blazing up a grassy hill throwing monster roost's, provided your not leaving a trench thats going to swallow the next truck, whats the problem?? Sure there might be a bit less grass, but thats unpreventable.

Would be different on a hill were there was only one line perhaps, so wheel spin would be policed harder.

Is that sort of how it's supposed to work??

[DieselBoy]

Yep yet another stuff up by 4x4 challenges and their rules. They can't even define the event correctly.

Hardcase

Make sure you introduce your self at the next event

[BrentC]

one other thing competitors might like to discuss is the walking of hazards.

my understanding is that Drivers and Co-Drivers are supposed to be kept a distance from stage

from a marshals viewpoint it is really hard to distinguish who the drivers are if you have never meet them (co-drivers are easier to spot - they are dirty) - I wondered if the drivers and co-drivers should have to wear a competitors bib or shirt

[darinz]

Bottom line that are the rules and the marshals applied it as they were instructed.

It is after all a winch competition and not a driving or trials event. The idea is to set up and winch faster than the other guy, not drive further, harder or faster. There are other events for those who want to do that.

If you don't like the rules don't compete.
If you want to compete accept the rules applied and stop the moaning.

If you want to change the rules then do so in the appropriate manner which is not through a public forum.

Write your own rules and then run your own event if you don't like the rules as written.

A winch challenge is about covering a piece of ground as fast as possible and having the peice of graound as hard as practical. It has never been about pure winching. Who would want to do that as it is like watching paint dry?

[darinz]

I think the marshals did a very good job. Some of the rulings may have been not 100% as the rules intended but the important thing is consistency and they were. They are voulanteers who without there would be no racing at all. The ones I talked to had little experience and they were doing their best. They understoond the need to be consistent and full credit to them for the way they did it and I think this wheelspin issue is more about educating people to the rules and not changing the rules. We have after all developed these over about 10 years and once you understand them, it becomes clearer. This means you need to get out them and get involved. As a marshal you will get first hand experience as to what the rules are and why they are there.

The wheelspin and deemed stuck rules are very difficult and if you don't know the rules completely then you will have problems with them.

If you have a better way of defining them to protect the tracks from being damaged then please go to the 4x4 challenges website and tell us.

This is not the place for the discussion as we always get a lot of people who have absolutely no idea making coments that are completely irrelevant and derail the discussion.

[DieselBoy]

I think the marshals did a very good job. Some of the rulings may have been not 100% as the rules intended but the important thing is consistency and they were. They are voulanteers who without there would be no racing at all. The ones I talked to had little experience and they were doing their best. They understoond the need to be consistent and full credit to them for the way they did it and I think this wheelspin issue is more about educating people to the rules and not changing the rules. We have after all developed these over about 10 years and once you understand them, it becomes clearer. This means you need to get out them and get involved. As a marshal you will get first hand experience as to what the rules are and why they are there.

The wheelspin and deemed stuck rules are very difficult and if you don't know the rules completely then you will have problems with them.

If you have a better way of defining them to protect the tracks from being damaged then please go to the 4x4 challenges website and tell us.

This is not the place for the discussion as we always get a lot of people who have absolutely no idea making coments that are completely irrelevant and derail the discussion.

True that

I think I have now got the understanding I was lacking.

Its a shame when you can't have a discussion on something like this with out the irrelevant stuff clouding things over.

It has been good to hear what the marshals are instructed to do from Jdub and Brent, as I now have an idea what they are told to look for.

It was pointed out to me earlier to day that really there is no point worrying about it, because its all going to be different at the next event and so on...........

But at least i having a better grasp on the INTENT of the rules is all good

[jeremy]

The word "warn" should go in the wheel spin rule, as it is contradictory to the rest of the rule. There can be no warning, if "you must commence winching" once you have been hootered. Thats not a warning, thats an instruction.

I know the intent is that the blast of the air horn is to indicate that there would be a penalty issued unless the competitor stopped trying to drive and started winching.

But thats not what the rule actually says, if taken literally, as would happen if you were trying to work out what you can and can't get away with

Good point! Yes the word 'warn' is maybe not ideal and that's certainly something we can look at as part of this years rules review.

I know its primarily a driving competition (despite what others might think), so the intent of the rules are to draw the line between winching and driving and buggering the track for the other competitors.

So if your blazing up a grassy hill throwing monster roost's, provided your not leaving a trench thats going to swallow the next truck, whats the problem?? Sure there might be a bit less grass, but that's unpreventable.

Would be different on a hill were there was only one line perhaps, so wheel spin would be policed harder.

Is that sort of how it's supposed to work??

Yup, the rule says if the "track is at risk of being cut up unfairly for trailing competitors". So it's a matter of opinion for the marshal, as to whether he thinks you are causing unfair track damage or not. It's not about the amount of mud being flung or anything like that, just keeping things fair for the next guy.

[Ralfie]

A winch challenge is about covering a piece of ground as fast as possible and having the peice of graound as hard as practical. It has never been about pure winching. Who would want to do that as it is like watching paint dry?

I don't believe this was the original intention. It was about putting into practice the recovery techniques etc used when out 4wding. Speed was never part of it and has only crept in in recent times as vehicle gained bigger engines etc.
The first Outback Challenge was all about winching and recovery as well as repairing tyres, safety and doing first aid etc.

Why have most of the competitors also dropped away from the events? Some now seem to be off roading racing and other speed events rather competing in winch challenges. Those that haven't probably destroyed their vehicles trying to keep up and and couldn't afford to continue at the pace events were being run at.
I figure it is due to the events loosing their direction and club class was to try and inject more interest and new blood as a winch challenge, not an alternative off road race.

Yes, winching can a bit like watching paint dry but was it ever intended to be a spectator event?

[darinz]

Winch Challenge has always been a general 4x4 competition. If it wasn't speed based then the time wouldn't be recorded. Speed however is a relative thing and high speed could be a 12kmph winch (that there are currently racing) It has never been a winch race. Make it a winch race and the guy with the biggest cheque book will win as they can build the biggest baddest winch around. Make it all about high speed driving and the guy with the biggest cheque book will win. Keep it a general competition that has a bit of everything keeping the winches generally short and keeping the emphasis on 4x4 technique means Joe average can win. If the events go too far one way then you end up with everyone racing the same thing.

The rules we use have been developed over 10 years with gradual changes as people request things to be changed. If you want something changed then get involved and change it. Making coments on here will have NO effect at all as this is a place that shit stirrers, stir things up. People also hide behind nick names so they can say what they want.

Ralfie since you have all the answers why don't you come to the next meeting and help us out? Currently it is just a bunch of competitors who have said they want to make things happen that are running this. All we can do is act upon what we are told the general competitors wants. We don't have all the answers and all we are trying to do is make the competitions SAFE, fair and fun.

This sport is now run by people who actually race and run events. We are directly involved with the sport and have been for many years. It is funny watching as people have all these bright ideas about how it should be, then they do a few races and then stop trying to change things as they realise it is going pretty well. (from a rules point of view)

A lot of guys aren't racing at present because of the general economy not because their trucks cost too much. A normal weekend away racing is going to cost a fair bit so if you are self employed the current situation can make any cost prohibitive. If you are on a wage you will not understand that.

[smiddy]

well put darin considering ORE is a big forum, it has nothing to do with 4x4challenges, all these suggestions are basically a waste of time, sure 4x4challenges watch this site too but at the end of the day, if you want something changed or an addition/deletion of a rule, then www.4x4challenges.org and the memeber meetings are the place to do it. There is a forum on 4x4challenges designed for winch challenges!

[BrentC]

well put darin considering ORE is a big forum, it has nothing to do with 4x4challenges, all these suggestions are basically a waste of time,

Except that - this where (along with 4wd clubs) growth in the sport of winch challenge can be generated and fostered.

Actual link to 4x4 Challenges is
http://www.4x4challenges.org.nz/

[DieselBoy]

well put darin considering ORE is a big forum, it has nothing to do with 4x4challenges, all these suggestions are basically a waste of time, sure 4x4challenges watch this site too but at the end of the day, if you want something changed or an addition/deletion of a rule, then http://www.4x4challenges.org and the memeber meetings are the place to do it. There is a forum on 4x4challenges designed for winch challenges!

Who said anything about changing rules???

I don't see any problem with discussing rules out in the open in a public forum???

Is there a problem with doing that??

The rules are there on 4x4 challenge's, and they are there for public viewing.

If someone wants to discuss them openly with everyone watching as they make an ass of themselves for not understanding them, then thats their call eh??

Why is open discussion so hard to have on ORE these days


If someone wanted to change something, they would have joined the committee and would be giving Darren a run for his money as Pres.

As for me personally, I just want to race and get muddy, with out getting penaltys, so i wanna understand the rules

[darinz]

For those that are interested, I have started a discussion on www.4x4challenges.org.nz so we can figure out what (if anything) should be done with the current classes in winch challenges.

Basically, some tings have become quite obvious. The club class has generated alot of interest and brought new people to the sport. So far this year we have had 20+ trucks at each event and we want to ensure that continues. One thing that is aparent, is that the club class seems to have 2 levels of competitors so in effect 2 competitions in one. So we need to know what people think so we can hopefully sort this out before it becomes a problem. Is it a third class? I don't know and the only way we can make it right is if those involved tell us what they think. Any CONSTRUCTIVE coments are needed.