wheel base opinions

[pruggerdore]

Hi guys presently building a tough club winch truck and wondering what different thoughts are on what wheelbase people feel is ideal.
Need measurements just length axle center to axle center..wat the truck is swb, mwb lwb. cruiser, safari, etc. and wat you feel is good or bad aspects of its length.
Thanks Clive

[rokhound]

Anything from 100" to 110ish" is the ideal size I reckon for what you are describing. Much more usable in hill climbs and descents, much less chance of getting a choppy see saw ride on all types of terrain, and much easier to dial in the correct anti squat and roll centre numbers. not to mention more room for carrying gear and people etc.
As far as I can see the only thing you give out to SWB is ramp over and some weight saving, and I believe that the benefits over swb are far greater than the negatives.

As usual, that's my 2c worth and I don't really care if you disagree.

[pruggerdore]

Opinions, everyone has one. To not have one equals "brain dead"
Do agree wheel base presently is 103" . short nose. 0 aproach angle. full wagon back for all that crap gotta carry. 6 inch overhang behind back wheels. Havnt really got my head around the anti squat thing yet. 3 link in front

[darinz]

What size truck are you talking about? What type of terrain will you drive on? Ie North Island means longer and lower (it appears based upon the SI winch trucks I've seen).
High hp and high speed require longer WB.

So I'd be looking at some around the 106 to 114" range depending on exactly what you want to do.
Antisquat can be set reguadless of WB but generally the longer the arms are the easier it is to get netrual antisquat figure.

The other thing to consider is how wide is you truck? With standard GQ axles and 35x11.5 Simex on -14 offset wheels then 106 to 110 is the sweet spot as far as width to length ratio's go. That is based upon high speed offroad handling aka US desert racing.

For a winch truck ride height and suspension is probably more important. High speed requires stability so any more than 3 or 4 lift is way too much. Most are building a chassis height of under 600mm (mine is 520mm) but with factory suspension that is pretty hard to achieve and still have some wheel travel.

So give us some more info and we'll offer opinions based upon that. eg what truck, engine, suspension, what series as there NI has more speed but SI seems to have tighter courses. Also the higher it is the longer it needs to be to climb the same hill.

[darinz]

Opinions, everyone has one. To not have one equals "brain dead"
Do agree wheel base presently is 103" . short nose. 0 aproach angle. full wagon back for all that crap gotta carry. 6 inch overhang behind back wheels. Havnt really got my head around the anti squat thing yet. 3 link in front

You want an antisquat of around 100. Any less is squat which is good for traction but also lifts the front wheels causing loss of steering and reducing hill climb ability.
Any more and it will climb well but will loose traction more as the rear will lift on acceleration. A GQ with 4" of lift has a high AS number so looses traction on the flat quite easily but clim hills great. (but SWB then become unstable)

This topic could fill 100 pages you realise!

Personally I think 103 is too short.

[pruggerdore]

HI Darinz great input. Im x kaitaia club. Ok truck is off road only. trailered. low speed only. but in saying that would like to do taupo 1000 one day. not competitively just to try and get thru the 2 days. thats hard enough. got a pajero evo more suited too that. Probably
wont ever compete in winch challenges but trying to build a truck that will if I choose.wont be caged initially. so not worried about speed. need good ground clearance for bush work. trying to keep it light. power. vn v6 manual. why? easy simple small. light.well proven and oh cheap. not that keen on big power as it breaks stuff

The recipe so far
Daihatsu rugger body. (toyota blizzard). so small and light
lj78 1992 prado LWB chassis. coils, 3 links both ends. 4.8 diffs locker in back. Chassis pushed well foward under body. 300 cut of front of chassis and 400 off back. so esentially a swb body on a long wheel base chassis . wheels are right to the ends of the body back and front. Prado manual box with pto. winch almost completly under bonnet then radiator engine mounted back as far as possible. front pully comes out 90mm behind front diff. so should be quite well ballanced. 8 inch beadlocks with refersed centres. so the outside of the 35 inch silverstones measure 1900 wide(one side to the other of truck width. most of the wheel is outside of body. 12 inch coil over at back. 14 inch coilover at front. 5 inch upward movement. at front. 6 inch upward movement at back. Tho if I drop ride hieght that will get less. extending radius arms 150mm in the front with rose joints. do the bac as well with rose joints meaning it would be easy to relocate axle back or foward an inch or 2 (hence the Question. should I ??? making the wheel base an inch longer would allow me to run bigger tyres later on. contemplating 4 link in the back but need to learn more about this anti squatt thing. what did nuetral or 100 relate to?

a hundred pages is all good.

[pruggerdore]

waiting, come on guys where are the 100 pages off input Im waiting for

[NJV6]

Here's a start...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... did=168577

[pruggerdore]

Here's a start...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... did=168577

thanks, awesome info. still highly confusing tho

[darinz]

Why are you running 14" C/O in front and 12"C/O in the rear? It is the rear end that gets in trouble at high speed so needs more travel.
As an idea my new truck will have 18" travel in the front (well near enough to) with 8" up travel. It will have the rear limited to 24" travel with 10" of up travel.
This has 18" C/O all round and will have a ride hieght lower than my old GQ with 3" + 2" lift.

4x4 suspension design is just like anything else and all you need to do is relate it to what we do. simply put, keep it as low as you can, keep it as netrual as you can as we want a truck to do everything and it just isn't possible.

For the travel you are talking then factory 3 link is not really going to cut it. I'm using a 3 link in mine but the arms are alot longer than anything factory. In the rear my lower trailing arms (that have C/O mounted on them) are going to be 1300mm long. The uppers will be about 80% the length on the lowers to allow for a good pinion angle change to prevent UJ binding at extreme travel. See what i mean by EVERYTHING effecting something else.

LWB Prado is the same WB as my old truck and is a pretty good compromise if you keep the hp down. With a V6 commy you will not have any problems with that!

1900 wide is ok and will be good if you are out with GQ's as you will be about 50mm narrower than them.

I would fit the winch at the back as it will aid wieght distrubution but more importantly the rope will feed on perfectly every time so you can run more rope safer. Plenty have done this with PTO so shouldn't be a problem to figure this out.

What about the steering box interfering with body mounts etc with moving the body that much? And then the radiator getting in the way of the steering staft etc? These were things I had to deal with with my truck that's why I ask.

And with the work you are doing, then fit a rollcage! They aren't that hard and I'm nore than happy to help you deseign it to comply with the rules but $500 worth of steel is the first money you should spend!

How far along are you or is just in the planning stage? Maybe start a build thread in the Project board and you'll get better feedback.

[pruggerdore]

As you said truck too do everything the ultimate isnt possible so Im compromising to try and make a good all rounder. 12" shocks in the back. Because they came my way second hand. buying new 14" for the front. High speed stability? with a v6 commy? wat little speed work it will do Im not too worried If its not that good. Radius arms factory are 750sh long front and back but am planing on making them about 1000 long and using rose joints on the body end. Again trying to improve on factory but not create the ultimate. Body mounted and engine and box in. front body mounts are an issue with steering box. only ones not done yet. radiator no problem with shafts. looked at mounting winch in back for balance. but as a club truck a lot of gear to carry. plus I have an after market large drum winch will hold 100 metres no problem. So limiting to say 60 I shouldnt have to much of a problem with it bunching up on one side. The winch on front wil still be behind front wheels. just the wieght issue. plasma will help. No cage too save weight also will be building an external cage to brotect windscreen etc. width had to stop around 1900 as trailer 1950. As a club truck It will be going out with more standard cruisers safaris etc so making it too extreme would be kind of pointless. Im thinking from your comments Im heading in the right direction. should be doing a build thread but I wouldnt do a good job of it, cant even type.

[Bulletproof]

You will regret the 1900mm across the wheels .

If you are going on club trips other with cruisers and Hiluxs with hieght under the diff ,they will drive through the Hole and ruts and you be wedged and stuck.

Cheers Richard

[pruggerdore]

Hi Richard. as we and you experienced in Waitapheta. In waitapheta we had a safari at 2100. got wedged all the time, but with 400 horses he worked back and foward and quite often chewed the ruts wider and got thru. broke the pan hard eventually. I dont think he deliberatly made it 2100. Propably just how it came out with the beaddlocks he had. How wide is your hilux? I think prado and hilux diffs are the same. on 8" rims. reversing centres gained about 50mm each rim so 100 over all. so compare to hilux with 10" rims I should only be around 50mm wider. Might have me no's wrong but measured width the other day and it was 1900 to outside of tyre. Thought It would be ok but also let me claw at the edge of ruts abit. when my truck was narrower than most. (standard rugger) It did well sometimes by gripin on the inside of ruts. was hoping by being a little wider might get a similar effect. That was my plan any way but you think it would be more of a hinderence than a gain. stability gained as well of course.

[flyingbrick]

I'm fkd.

[cool__bananas]

MEAN!!! how wide is that thing? my 80 series cruiser is 2300 wide with my new wheels

[haydgq]

I'm fkd.

Shite thats got a mean stance and looks very American in the way they now go for width and a very low height with there truggys and rock type rigs eh

Did you end up extending the wheelbase.? Or is it wider than it is long bud Looking good and have you got any updates for your build page.

[Bulletproof]

Thought It would be ok but also let me claw at the edge of ruts abit. when my truck was narrower than most. (standard rugger) It did well sometimes by gripin on the inside of ruts. was hoping by being a little wider might get a similar effect. That was my plan any way but you think it would be more of a hinderence than a gain. stability gained as well of course.

You will gain at times with the extra width by not dropping to the bottom of the ruts but alot of the time it can slow momentum
as well. Hieght under the diff is the important thing.

Also trucks with a wide tread tend to stuff side walls alot more.

If you want my opinion on wheelbase .Go long rather than short.
Probably 100-110 inches. The only time a short is any good is for trialing to turn sharply between the pegs.

Cheers Richard

[Fakey]

I'm fkd.

Dam that looks cool

[darinz]

Thought It would be ok but also let me claw at the edge of ruts abit. when my truck was narrower than most. (standard rugger) It did well sometimes by gripin on the inside of ruts. was hoping by being a little wider might get a similar effect. That was my plan any way but you think it would be more of a hinderence than a gain. stability gained as well of course.

You will gain at times with the extra width by not dropping to the bottom of the ruts but alot of the time it can slow momentum
as well. Hieght under the diff is the important thing.

Also trucks with a wide tread tend to stuff side walls alot more.

If you want my opinion on wheelbase .Go long rather than short.
Probably 100-110 inches. The only time a short is any good is for trialing to turn sharply between the pegs.

Cheers Richard

But 1900 isn't wide? A Safari on 35x11.5 Simex (or 33x12.5) on 8" wheels that are standard offset (-14) is about 1960mm wide. When I fitted 10.5 Silverstones i got -25 offset wheels to keep the outside of the tyre in the same place.

Virtually easy Safari out there is running that width so I would be worried about it at all.

[haydgq]

Thought It would be ok but also let me claw at the edge of ruts abit. when my truck was narrower than most. (standard rugger) It did well sometimes by gripin on the inside of ruts. was hoping by being a little wider might get a similar effect. That was my plan any way but you think it would be more of a hinderence than a gain. stability gained as well of course.

You will gain at times with the extra width by not dropping to the bottom of the ruts but alot of the time it can slow momentum
as well. Hieght under the diff is the important thing.

Also trucks with a wide tread tend to stuff side walls alot more.

If you want my opinion on wheelbase .Go long rather than short.
Probably 100-110 inches. The only time a short is any good is for trialing to turn sharply between the pegs.

Cheers Richard

But 1900 isn't wide? A Safari on 35x11.5 Simex (or 33x12.5) on 8" wheels that are standard offset (-14) is about 1960mm wide. When I fitted 10.5 Silverstones i got -25 offset wheels to keep the outside of the tyre in the same place.

Virtually easy Safari out there is running that width so I would be worried about it at all.

My Hilux with the wider surf rear axle and Jaffa's hub spacers in the front is around 1950mm wide and thats on 33-12.5-15 Wrangler mtr's

[Engineer]

my surf on 35 bfgs x 10in rims sit just over 1900 long and i made the wheel base 105or 106inchs, cant remember at thiw point in time! few bevies thru the fght may have blured some memory

[haydgq]

My Hilux with the wider surf rear axle and Jaffa's hub spacers in the front is around 1950mm wide and thats on 33-12.5-15 Wrangler mtr's[/quote]

Oh and forgot to add thats on 10 inch American rock crawler wheels so they are a very wide off-set also.