Paper Roads, were do you stand??

[DieselBoy]

In light of something that came up in This Weekends Achievements 8/9 May, I was curious about everyones attitudes to paper roads.

Some facts about Paper Roads:

They are Legal Roads
They are therefore accessible to each and everyone of us
It is illegal to put a gate on a paper road or restrict access

A paper road is defined on a 1:50 Topographical Map as a dashed black line.

My attitude is that I have a right to use a paper road, I do not need permission from anybody, and I have no respect or tolerance for restrictions placed on such roads.

There are all sorts of excuses used by land holders through which paper roads pass through to deny access. I reckon I have just about heard them all, even been shot at down on the coast

Catch is though, I view my self as a very responsible sort, along with those I choose to travel with. We leave gates as found, we have often been known to carry rubbish bags full of other peoples rubbish gathered from the places we have visited, leave huts full of firewood for the next visitor and generally try to improve a track if required.

I fully realise there is a certain element out there that has no clue, or respect for anything at all

Swamped, definitely need your perspective in here mate, good to have a balance from a land owners POV, especially one that has 1st hand experience with paper roads that run through their property!!!!!!

Curious to hear where everyone else stands

Be nice to each other

[DieselBoy]

Went on a club recce around a number of the paper roads between Dairy Flat and Kaukapapa. Mostly pretty overgrown and very dry.

Some pretty ansy yokels

We weren't hooning and were driving real slow and careful like. But as one "nice farmer" put it, the council should have phoned him to let him know we were coming so he could give his consent to our driving on "his land". Such a nice friendly lad.

Even though a paper road gives you a legal right of access, if its over a farmers property its pretty ratshit not asking for access and just rocking down it.

Of course I have no idea what the situation was or anything about the area but farmers can apply to have them removed if need be and the process isn't that difficult if it doesn't go to anywhere of interest or value or property lots. So you may lose a future wheeling spot if the farmer has a piss about it.
Farmers are much more likely to happily let people on if you ask....even if legally you don't have to and its just out of courtesy. I'm like that in respect to my own property and maybe I'm an "ansy yokel" but I know many other farmers feel the same (In my area at least). Just something to consider maybe...

well we have a key for a few roads around in the Rodney and a good relationship with the council. The agreement was that if we were going to have any sort of trip, whether it be recce or an actual run, that we would let all landowners know who's property backs onto the road. It was mostly put in place to keep the horse people happy.

However in this case the contact list for the owners was lost and we did find out the surnames of the owners and the people using the roads just had t call to let them know they were going. So if a number wasn't listed or something then that was our (me and my mum) faults. we will have the new contact list soon.

Cheers
Lincoln

Well I agree and paper roads do all kinds of weird stuff. But in this particular instance the road was clearly a boundary between different farms from one end to the other. For example people had planted trees along their boundaries. It was also clearly used by the locals as a general grazing and play area because there were various bits of horse jump gear and so on spread about. On one map too, the road is clearly signified and doesn't disappear like they sometimes do and at the end we exited there was even a sign post with a road name pointing up it. It was gated of course. So, well, you see...

[chevrolux]

If it has a gate across it dont go through that gate until you ask the land owner. All it takes is a 2 minute conversation. Basic human courtesy.

[skid]

If it has a gate across it dont go through that gate until you ask the land owner. All it takes is a 2 minute conversation. Basic human courtesy.

gotta sort of agree

some paper roads have not been used for many years so therefore the farmers have stock in there etc etc

you may feel you have a legal right to be there, but a quick phone call or chat at the front door to let the farmer know your intentions goes a long way towards making 4wders look more responsible than tresspassing rednecks (even though we are not tresspassing)

skids 2c

[coxsy]

drove a few in the south auckland area, gates as found. no problems

[Big-AL]

Some facts about Paper Roads:

They are Legal Roads
They are therefore accessible to each and everyone of us
It is illegal to put a gate on a paper road or restrict access

If this is true, then surely you can be fined for no WOF and REGO? and have your vehicle confiscated for deliberate loss of traction? and if you leave any sort of rut or hole or mark the "road" in anyway, can you be charged with wilful damage?

DieselBoy - I have a 52 page PDF about the NZ law and roads. It quotes common law, statute law, and gives court case examples about roads and the law which have made a precedent. It is a hard-going read, but the most legally based road article i have found. im sure i could get you a copy if you are interested?

[DieselBoy]

Some facts about Paper Roads:

They are Legal Roads
They are therefore accessible to each and everyone of us
It is illegal to put a gate on a paper road or restrict access

If this is true, then surely you can be fined for no WOF and REGO? and have your vehicle confiscated for deliberate loss of traction? and if you leave any sort of rut or hole or mark the "road" in anyway, can you be charged with wilful damage?

Correct.

Technically an un-warranted and registered vehicle up any track we currently use, Thompsons, Wires, Vandy's, Waitawheta, Nevesville, 42 Traverse could be done with all of the above.

[rangimotors]

correct, people have been done for that sort of thing at the waimack in chch mostly young kids in $100 cars racing around the shingle roads.

I don't blame the cops either, not a pleasent thing when your coming around a corner in ya truck or worse ya trail bike and some FU%K witt is coming the other way all crossed up taking up the full road and going way to fast.

[albundy]

If it has a gate across it dont go through that gate until you ask the land owner. All it takes is a 2 minute conversation. Basic human courtesy.

A little hard at 2000m altitude and about 300km from the nearest farm. Old man range and whitcombe rd are getting more and more gates, it's a paper road and it aint farmers putting those gates up either.
Al

[DieselBoy]

If it has a gate across it dont go through that gate until you ask the land owner. All it takes is a 2 minute conversation. Basic human courtesy.

A little hard at 2000m altitude and about 300km from the nearest farm. Old man range and whitcombe rd are getting more and more gates, it's a paper road and it aint farmers putting those gates up either.
Al

Agreed.

Its forestry thats putting up gates up north. Tried to go up Rainbow mountain the other weekend, that now has a locked gate.

Tried to go up MT Tarawera, it is closed to everyone, even trampers.

Thats what our courteous attitudes are doing. We are making it easy for people to restrict our access to our own country.

You call an adjacent land owner, they say no, so what, you don't go??

They have no legal right to deny or grant you permission to travel that road as it isn't their property.

Don't roll over and slink off with your tail between your legs, its your road, and unless you are told by someone who actually has the correct status to deny you permission, you are just contributing to the misconception that paper roads aren't legal roads, so access can be restricted.

That ought to stir some up a bit



(the above is not necessarily my opinion, while I agree with most of it, its just an opinion and not necessarily fact)

[darinz]

Use it or loose it is another issue. If it comes time to close a road due to a request from ajoining land owner etc. If no one has been using it then there it is hard to argue a need for the road.

Another thing to think about. Paper roads don't exist. It is either road or not a road. It may be formed or unformed BUT it is still a road.

An I have to agree, common courtesy should be first on the list, then if you are going to force your rights to be on the road, you ad better be 100% certain you are actually on the road! Carry a GPS, have the latest maps etc as you'll find alot of road are not actually on the legal road.

Ajoining land owners can put gates across and they can control access with a valid reason, (eg logging) so common sense is needed a lot of the time.

Sure we have rights, but you need to be very very careful when you start pushing them.

[Swamped]

On my place theres 3 paper roads. One is on our farm race and two others are straight through a bunch of fields, with no gates. Someone made a meal of one of em though as it goes straight through an old homestead type house .
But anyways yeah I think its just courtesy asking. I usually say "legally I don't think I have to ask but I don't want to tread on anyones toes so can I?? Same deal when asking about duckshooting along the river. A lot of older people (no offence intended to anyone) think this way I've found and it seems theres just a general lack of respect coming through in all facets of life.
I accept being turned down as its only happened once so far and there are plenty of other places to wheel. It seems to me like it just gives a bad name to all 4x4 owners if you ignore them. I've only just recently been able to drive through a farm due to a new owner, the 2 previous owners refused access to trucks but not dirt bikes, and I respected these rules which meant when the new owner came, the old one put in a good word for me an voila! 4x4 access .
Many landowners will feel different but we see it as our farm is what we live off of and if some hoon rips up pasture or steals equipment its to the detriment of our income. We've had it before so its hard to be trusting of new people basically.
Our rule is, our friends are welcome but our friends friends aren't, esp unaccompanied.

Just remember if you think they are being dicks now turning you down, when farmers really want to dig their heels in...they can.

[Swamped]

Isn't Mt Tarawera like a Maori reserve or something?? I Don't know what thats officially termed. But the Crusty demons shot a part of one of their dvds up there and they rode right into the crater so don't know what the deal is there.

O you'll find a lot of power lines tend to follow paper roads too so that may be an indication of what line to follow when you are out and about.

[DieselBoy]

Very important point

Another thing to think about. Paper roads don't exist. It is either road or not a road. It may be formed or unformed BUT it is still a road.

[BrentC]

If it has a gate across it dont go through that gate until you ask the land owner. All it takes is a 2 minute conversation. Basic human courtesy.

If the farmer or whoever has put a gate across a paper (legal) road - they need a permit for that gate and it must have a sign saying that it is a public road - from the Local Bodies Act.

[bobrocket]

Is it the Health and Safety Act that can restrict access, ie gates, if the farmer has stock, or logging is happening then technically your entering a work place.

Say when a main road gets closed because its been dug up, technically your still allowed to drive on it, there's only a few cones stopping you

I think there's some confusion (maybe from me) there are lots of roads that lead to things, ie dams, power-lines, cell towers, these roads are often put in for access as part of an agreement with the land owner, they are marked on maps, usually because of the many different people that require access to these sites, these are not public roads, they have controlled access, most times by a locked gate. Anybody can use these, if you have a genuine reason to be there.
If you use these roads then you must comply with H&S regulations usually set out by the lease holder,

If you look at the gates they usually have multiple padlocks on them linked together.

Some of those big towers you see on hills just arn't that safe to be around, funny how a 10m tower behind 3 locked gates, in the middle of no-where still has a 6" fence around it (its not to stop opossums either.

I think we have to be careful on how far we push our rights, there might be a genuine reason you have been denied access on one particular day, I've been shown some cool play spots just by checking in with a farmer before going down a road that I have every right to be on.

Access is always going to be an issue, curtious and considerate is where I stand

[Swamped]

Two of our paper roads don't even have a gate. just fenced straight across them. Been like that for more than 50years from what I've been told. The power pylons follow it though and the power board just go through another paddock to get on it.

Looks like everyone posting here are the sort of people landowners shouldn't be concerned about. If you think its worth talking about your conscientious enough to know what the deal is and that courtesy wins. Its the people that can't be bothered and just go do it that ruin peoples perceptions of everyone.

[BrentC]

Is it the Health and Safety Act that can restrict access, ie gates,.............

Access is always going to be an issue, curtious and considerate is where I stand

OSH only applies to the Farmers land not the legal unformed road.

Typically farmers fence the other side of the legal unformed road - suits them - more grazing and suits the local council because they don't have to look after it.

However - the local bodies act is very clear - you must not fence across a legal road - you can gate it with a permit.

still - Access is always going to be an issue, curtious and considerate mostly works - sometimes a crate of beer helps as well

[Swamped]

And ringing to say hello, not just when you want something also helps from my experience

[albundy]

albundy wrote:
Quote:
If it has a gate across it dont go through that gate until you ask the land owner. All it takes is a 2 minute conversation. Basic human courtesy.

A little hard at 2000m altitude and about 300km from the nearest farm. Old man range and whitcombe rd are getting more and more gates, it's a paper road and it aint farmers putting those gates up either.
Al


Agreed.

Its forestry thats putting up gates up north. Tried to go up Rainbow mountain the other weekend, that now has a locked gate.

Tried to go up MT Tarawera, it is closed to everyone, even trampers.

Thats what our courteous attitudes are doing. We are making it easy for people to restrict our access to our own country.

You call an adjacent land owner, they say no, so what, you don't go??

They have no legal right to deny or grant you permission to travel that road as it isn't their property.

Don't roll over and slink off with your tail between your legs, its your road, and unless you are told by someone who actually has the correct status to deny you permission, you are just contributing to the misconception that paper roads aren't legal roads, so access can be restricted.

That ought to stir some up a bit



(the above is not necessarily my opinion, while I agree with most of it, its just an opinion and not necessarily fact)

Don't get me wrong cobber, agree with you entirely. I still went through them, not saying how though.
Al

[DJ]

MT Tarawera, it is closed to everyone

thats a whole new ball game. Mt Tarawera has been given back to the local iwi. They have taken over the management and this includes some 'paper roads' and a short section of an access road. The locals now have an extra 40 ks plus to travel when only about 1 k is on Iwi land . This blocked road was maintained by transit nz ( my your Taxes) and well formed. More and more paper roads are being gobbled up under tribal hand overs. Minganui may be closed to everyone soon under a settlement claim.( Keys stepped in at the last moment)These settlements have already closed up thousands of ks of paper roads. It will not matter if you truck on up a paper road and say thats its gazzetted and therefore I will use it, when a local Iwi tells you whos get the rights and you dont. Access to paper roads are not the only problem facing 4wders when National parks are being (almost) given away.

[PeterVahry]

Roading Law as it Applies to Unformed Roads – The Sequel
Published October 2007
The main purpose of this report is to provide an illustration of the method and the depth of research underpinning Roading Law as it Applies to Unformed Roads.

Roading law as it applies to unformed roads
Published March 2007
This commentary explains the nature of the "Queen's highway", what the free right of passage is, the special character of roads along rivers, lakes and the sea, as well as some historical perspective.

www.walkingaccess.org.nz/page/6/Publications.html

[juz]

Don't get me wrong cobber, agree with you entirely. I still went through them, not saying how though.
Al

favourite part! was amazed when I moved to the coast the amount of people that carry a Special Gate opening tool under there seat! If its on a map your allowed to drive it.but if ya can, always best to ask.

[Pico42]

A paper road is defined on a 1:50 Topographical Map as a dashed black line.

That is not correct. The pecked black lines on a topographic map indicates a physical vehicle track only. It does not give any indication as to the legal status of the track (eg road, easement, private way, farm track, forestry track, beach, reserve, riverbed). This can only be discerned from the cadastral records held by LINZ.

[Swamped]

Tumonz has paper roads on it and I think whats on maps will vary given what the topo map is overlayed with. Just needa check the key on the side to confirm.

[Sadam_Husain]

maps dont acurately show legal paper roads you have to look at the land titles to find where they actually are

[PeterVahry]

Legal roads can be 'stopped' by local authorities and the older editions of mapping systems may of course be out of date in that respect.... even new editions may not have all the updates correctly. If in doubt contact the relevant local district council and ask for information about the road in question.
If the road is still 'legal' and does have obstructions, then write to the council and record your displeasure.. politely.

[Bubba]

When it comes to paper roads I normally keep to the middle, those paper cuts hurt like hell!

[DieselBoy]

Does occupation confer ownership?
Many unformed roads have now been occupied by, and incorporated
into the holding of, the owner of the surrounding land for very long
periods – in some cases more than a hundred years. Questions have
often been raised about ownership, and opinions expressed about
supposed rights to the land so occupied.

THE LAW, HOWEVER, IS VERY CLEAR. THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF THE
OCCUPIER ACQUIRING ANY RIGHTS OF OWNERSHIP OR POSSESSION
THROUGH OCCUPANCY, USE, OR CARE OF ANY UNFORMED ROAD. (EMPHASIS
ADDED)
Section 172(2) of the Land Act 1948 provides that:

Notwithstanding any statutes of limitation, no title to any land that is a road or
street, or is held for any public work, or that has in any manner been reserved for
any purpose, or that is deemed to be reserved from sale or other disposition in
accordance with section 58 of this Act, or the corresponding provisions of any
former Land Act, and no right, privilege, or easement in, upon, or over any such
land shall be acquired, or be deemed at anytime heretofore to have been
acquired by possession or user adversely to or in derogation of the title or Her
Majesty or of any local authority, public body, State enterprise referred to in the
Second Schedule to the State-Owned Enterprises Act 1986 or person in whom
the land has been at any time vested in trust for the purposes for which it has
been reserved as aforesaid.

[Swamped]

Yeah it seems everyone knows occupation doesn't mean ownership however you can apply to have unformed paper roads removed. I don't think land owners will say bah its my land so stay off if you tell em the way paper roads work, its more the fact damage and theft can occur elswhere and the paper road just gives people a way in which is whats behind the stay off "my" land thing I think.