PTO driven hydrulic winch install to Prado...

[markr]

Well the jobs almost complete, all done apart from the oil tank and plumbing.... but I thought I would share things I discovered while setting it up...
If your interested.

Part one.

Vehicle:
Toyota Prado 71 series 1996. Yes 96.. one of the last ones made.

Background:
Electric winches are ok If your using your truck for light 4x4ing.
BUT if your up to your tailpipe, I use this word loosely, like me most of the time electric is a pain. Overheating, slow, and it always fails when you need it most. You need to clean it regularly else the mud and water does damage. Last time out it took us 10 hours to travel approx 4-5 klms... And most of it was winching and DEEP mud holes.

So I desided to replace my just overhalled 9000lb Super winch with a PTO. I found one on trade me and bought it. Now some of you know that not all transfer cases that a PTO can bolt upto have the gear required to drive the PTO put in at the factory. So after about 4 weeks I found a gear and installed along wirth the PTO unit.

Yes I know I'm installing a Hydraulic winch and I'm talking about a PTO driven one. BUT I'm only telling you the background information in part one...

Anyway, I'm on a job 3 weeks ago and asked the home owner what he did for a living.... Well my heart started beating faster when he said he imported 4x4 gear... Yes all sorts of gear. I casually mentioned I was looking for a hydraulic winch a while ago but they were too expensive... He smiled and said he had one 12000lb one left from the last shipment. After talking prices, and talking to the wife and reminding her it was my birthday soon, it was purchased.. Anyhow, when I went to pick it up he said he had made a mistake and it was actually a 15000lb one.. I told him I didn't mind. (as you would)

So the install begins. Now Hydraulic winches are slow when connecting to your Power Steering Pump, so this option was never going to happen, I might note here that during the costing of all the extras needed I almost went back to installing the PTO winch.

Cont in part 2....

[Jerry]

Pics

[markr]

Yep I'll take some picks Sunday... of the mounting plates etc.
Just trying to price the 12l oil tank...

[IcedJohnno]

Excellent!
A technical post, on a truck exactly the same as mine, by someone who obviously uses it. Great!

"Cont in part 3...."
Where's part 2?

What are you using to gear up the output to run at pump speeds?
Assumes it needs this

What do you see as the benefits of Hydro over PTO?

[mercutio]

What do you see as the benefits of Hydro over PTO?

some he has already mentioned electric winches are relatively cheap and simple to set up unfortunately they are not really designed for long heavy use a hydraulic winch can work hard all day long which an electric will not do

people often argue for electric that you can use them when the engine is not running but in my opinion if you get to the point of your engine dying you need more than a winch to get you out of trouble

hydraulics when set up right are generally faster as well and unlike PTO winches there is no issue of overloading the winch driveline and breaking something also you do not get the shock loading issues you would get with a PTO winch

cons of hydraulics they are generally heavier with the extra plumbing valve banks oil tank and oil cooler they are the more expensive option and do generally take a bit of fiddling to get set up correctly

[mudlva]

[and do generally take a bit of fiddling to get set up correctly[/quote]


OH but its well worth it in the end

[mercutio]

OH but its well worth it in the end

you don't need to convince me of that i would luv to set one up on my wagen someday got to get it running first though

[flyingbrick]

Yep I'll take some picks Sunday... of the mounting plates etc.
Just trying to price the 12l oil tank...

So you got the 15,000lb model. Is it runva brand or similar?

I had one of those and couldn't bare to mount it out front of my safari as it was hooooooooge in size and weight.

Sold it to a guy with a tractor in the end!

do you think the weight/size will be a problem?

[markr]

Taking pics in about a hour.. BUT...

Part 2

So why a hydraulic winch over the PTO ?

Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this one. Here's mine.

PTO is simple. Less parts that can go wrong. BUT I've seen them break.
Shear pins are going to break at the worst possible time. You're deep in mud and BANG, no winch and you're going to struggle to find and remove the broken pin - let alone replace the new one. I've also seen the cable come off the drum and damage the levers that engage and dis-engage the drum.
I've even seen one where the housing around the gears has shattered.
From what I have found out the Toyota PTO is rated anywhere from 8000lb to 10000lb

Hydraulics are a little more complicated, but if done right are very strong and reliable. They will pull at a constant speed even as the load increases.
If the load increases the pressure rises to keep the flow rate to the motor constant. When the pressure reaches it's recommended rate, the winch simply stops turning but nothing is broken. In my case it will pull up to 15,000lb before stopping. You can increase the pressure if you really need more. Most are a little under rated for safety reasons.

The first problem was getting the correct hydraulic pump for my winch.
Most pumps are driven by a motor that has a constant speed and produces a set horse-power, so you can work backwards from there to get the correct pump.
It took the very helpful person at the hydraulic shop a few sessions with me, to understand that the speed doesn't matter in my case, as I was able grab another gear and increase the engine revs. Once he understood that, I was able to purchase a gear driven pump that produced the flow I required at around 2000 rpm. Now remember this is pump rpm. I borrowed a electronic rev counter to see what rpm I was getting at the PTO in the different gears selected and a set engine rpms.

Remembering that I need 600 rpm at the pump to produce usable pressure and volume; it still should not exceed 2,500 rmp at the pump, otherwise I take the chance of blowing the winch motor.

MMMMMMMM, 1st gear idle is 140 rpm at the PTO - a long way off. However, I now have a spreadsheet and print out of all the gears, engine rev ranges and equivalent PTO rpm. Avaialable if you want it.

In short if I'm in 5th gear the ratios are 1 to 1. So at 2000 engine rpm the PTO is also going 2000rpm.
If I use 3rd gear with 1200 engine rpm the PTO is doing 672 rpm and at 3000 engine rpm the PTO is doing 1,680 rpm.
If I use 4th gear with 1200 engine rpm the PTO is doing 978 rpm and at 3000 engine rpm the PTO is doing 2,445 rpm.


So 4th gear is the safest and the least likely to do any damage.

BUT ... I like 5th gear as I can see the revs the PTO is doing by looking at the engine rev counter.

Now using these gears you are not likely to be able to drive and winch at the same time. BUT it doesn't matter, because at 10m per minute you don't need to drive. Let the winch do all the work. Sometimes you can put additional strain on a winch by driving - as the load varies you can cause severe jerking action which can actually place more stress/strain on the winch and cable, causing damage and/or failure.

The winch comes as a kit to allow you to connect to the steering pump, but the kit has limitations. The hoses supplied are not large enough for the full 50-60 lpm flow rate. Also, the 12v solenoid that stops and reverses the oil flow to the pump is also restricted to 50 lpm, so when you don't have the winch working it builds up the pressure (approx 1,530lbs), before releasing it either to the steering box or back to the oil holding tank.

It was recommended to me to get a lever control valve. If you're not using the winch, it will release the oil back to the oil holding tank at very low pressure (approx 100psi). This reduces load on the pump when not in use and reduces the buildup of heat.



So parts purchase:
Hydraulic gear pump rated at 65 lpm @ 2500 rpm
Good quality Nylon couplings to connect PTO and Pump. Pictures to come.
Oil filter (must have)
1/2inch Valve, 1 lever

Cont...Part 3 Coupling the pump to the PTO...

[markr]

Not really. the front springs have been uprated and longer. I'ts being mounted high onto an RSJ between the chassis rails. It's been on the truck now for 4 years and works really well.
Also the steel rope is being replaced with the synthitic rope off the electric winch. It's only rated to 10,000lb so I can see this getting replaced as well...

Off now to take some pics and mount the control valve....

Yep I'll take some picks Sunday... of the mounting plates etc.
Just trying to price the 12l oil tank...

So you got the 15,000lb model. Is it runva brand or similar?

I had one of those and couldn't bare to mount it out front of my safari as it was hooooooooge in size and weight.

Sold it to a guy with a tractor in the end!

do you think the weight/size will be a problem?

[markr]

Here are test image. I think this is how it's done...

[markr]

Yep it works will post another 20 tonight with descriptions...

[mudlva]

hi there good work

something i found out about my first pump was that it was single directional unit. it mated up with my pto etc and was the correct rotation etc as well .
problem appeared when i left the pto engaged ( forgot that it was in) hooked reverse engaged transfur etc etc and did what i had to to sort out a particlar problem out. ...

anyway back to the story what happened is that i killed the pump by going in reverse to what it was built for.

i now have a duel dirrection pump which means that if i do forget about the reverse thingy then it is a lot more forgiving

just another little something to think about

cheers

[markr]

Yeah,, Will have to make sure PTO is disingaged....

[markr]

Winch motor.





Pump mount. One plate bolts onto transfercase at the rubber mount to the cross member. The other to a mount point half way up the transfer case..



As you can see the original flange on the PTO has been removed and replaced with this machined piece.









The machined ends on both the pump and PTO are the same. They have a nylon sleave that goes over both ends.




Control valve. Now fitted underneath with the handle sticking up though the consol beside the handbrake.




The beast....

Part 3 Soon...

I only need the oil tank and hoses to get this going...
If you can make oil tanks and want a job let me know.

[Sadam_Husain]

so you wouldnt have needed that reversable PTO afterall would you?

[markr]

so you wouldnt have needed that reversable PTO afterall would you?

Ahhh NO.... But reverse gear is higher... So thats an option.... I can reverse the pump...

[Sadam_Husain]

so you wouldnt have needed that reversable PTO afterall would you?

Ahhh NO.... But reverse gear is higher... So thats an option.... I can reverse the pump...

thats why there was so much interest in that winch, I almost got to swap that pto for a single directon one before he sold it?

[markr]

Well she's bolted upto the Prado now.

so you wouldnt have needed that reversable PTO afterall would you?

Ahhh NO.... But reverse gear is higher... So thats an option.... I can reverse the pump...

thats why there was so much interest in that winch, I almost got to swap that pto for a single directon one before he sold it?

[Madaz]

Hi there,
Looks good what your doing, should all work sweet as.

Read the bit about the 12l oil tank, and i would be trying to go a bit bigger if you have the room.

The oil seems to take a few winches to heat up, but once you get heat into it can take hours to cool back down.
Volume will definently be your friend.

Cheers

[markr]

Hi there,
Looks good what your doing, should all work sweet as.

Read the bit about the 12l oil tank, and i would be trying to go a bit bigger if you have the room.

The oil seems to take a few winches to heat up, but once you get heat into it can take hours to cool back down.
Volume will definently be your friend.

Cheers

Thanks for that. I can place a larger tank in if I wanted..

[petefj40]

Very interesting thread Mark.
Cheers for posting.

[mudlva]

i run a 20 ltr tank and so far had no ral problems with it getting to hot
time will tel this Xmas as im expecting to have to be using it a fair amount

over winter i had to do about 6 to 8 full lenght pulls (about 55mtrs+) and pulling a second truck at the same time and the oil was not too hot at all

the pump was pushing about 2200psi of a max of 3300 and pulling at about running speed (what ever that is in mtrs/minute)

all though it was wet and cold i sort of expected the oil temp to start climbing as i dont run a cooler but all seemed well

i use a maneul gauge (as in my hand) i can hold onto the feed hose into the valve block if it gets to hot to hold onto then the system will need a rest to cool,
so far i have not yet had to stop for a rest

as i said this xmas we will see how it to goes in the summer weather and tempature

good stuff so far

[markr]

The tanks getting built this week. I've managed to get about a 17 l tank under the bonnet. So should be ok. It's more than was recommended to me.

[markr]

Well done. I don't expect those sorts of speeds but it should pull the whole club up the hills at the same time...

i run a 20 ltr tank and so far had no ral problems with it getting to hot
time will tel this Xmas as im expecting to have to be using it a fair amount

over winter i had to do about 6 to 8 full lenght pulls (about 55mtrs+) and pulling a second truck at the same time and the oil was not too hot at all

the pump was pushing about 2200psi of a max of 3300 and pulling at about running speed (what ever that is in mtrs/minute)

all though it was wet and cold i sort of expected the oil temp to start climbing as i dont run a cooler but all seemed well

i use a maneul gauge (as in my hand) i can hold onto the feed hose into the valve block if it gets to hot to hold onto then the system will need a rest to cool,
so far i have not yet had to stop for a rest

as i said this xmas we will see how it to goes in the summer weather and tempature

good stuff so far

[mudlva]

yes it was plesantly suprising indeed

i have mid mounted my unit to help keep the weight off the front axle i will take some photos when i get my camara repaired

cheers

[callum007]

im suprised that you were reccomended only 12ltrs. only as it was calcuated by an "expert" that i'd best run a 20ltr tank for my front and rear hydro steering. I run about 10ltrs as im short on space and it gets pretty warm just with my steering.

what flow rate is your pump spec'd for at rated rpm and what pressure? just have an interest for a project...

[DMcCready]

Im no expert on hydraulics but when I looked into running a hydraulic winch I was told that the tank needs to be 1.5 times the capacity of the pump.... So 10L/min pump - the tank needs to hold 15L. When I responded that there wasnt enough room for the size of tank that I needed I was told that I could run a smaller tank but I would need a cooler on the return to tank line.

Just my 2c

[mudlva]

its a bit differant with steering as the unit is going full fime and from on load to full lock up very quickly
as with winching the preasure is a lot more gradual and usage is way less as well
apart from that heavy run over winter where there was a series of hard winching on a normal hard trip i would be suprised if we winched every half hour or less that give the oil a lot of time to cool

[mudlva]

Im no expert on hydraulics but when I looked into running a hydraulic winch I was told that the tank needs to be 1.5 times the capacity of the pump.... So 10L/min pump - the tank needs to hold 15L. When I responded that there wasnt enough room for the size of tank that I needed I was told that I could run a smaller tank but I would need a cooler on the return to tank line.

Just my 2c

the chap from hyspecs that i deal with said the same thing at the beginning as well but after talking to a few of the older chaps in the work shop that fiquire is more based around machines that do like a 8 hour day eg cherry pickers fork hoists platform hoists etc.

what we do is so far off there normal radar that unless the salesman has actually supplied a set up for a hard off roader then they will be learning as much about what they sell as we do when we buy the stuff.

test on the track is the only way of finding out weather the tank is going to be sufferant and hay take a big bottle of water that you can pour over the tank if starts getting a bit hot