Just trying to raise awareness. From IMAS.co.nz
Arms (Military Style Semi-Automatic Firearms and Import Controls) AmendmentBill - (285-1) This bill amends the Arms Act to amend the definition of military style semi-automatic firearms and place restrictions on the importation of airguns that look like restricted weapons. On the 10th of May this bill was given its first reading in Parliament. Submissions to the select committee are to be in by 16th of June. The second reading is set down for the 4th of August. As you can see time to get submissions in is short. I cannot stress enough how important it is for as many submissions as possible to be made. WE ALL need to educate ourselves about this bill,learn what is at stake and make a submission to the select committee. The Law and Order Select Committee must be given a clear message that this Bill will not be accepted. If made law this amendment to the Arms Act will allow the commissioner of Police to persuade the executive to declare any firearm (with the exception of pistols) to be a restricted MSSA. There will be no requirement in anyway shape or form for the firearm to be semi automatic. A definition of MSSA is whatever the Act says it is and in this case an MSSA is defined as being whatever the police say. At a very minimum all semi automatics are in danger of being classed as MSSA's. Make no mistake. The Police are trying to pull a swift one in the hope that it will go unnoticed. This Bill is the Police's response to losing the court case taken against them by Richard Lincoln of the National Shooters Association who refused to accept the Police change of interpretation of the phrase "military pattern free-standing pistol grip". Apparently they will not accept a High Court Judges decision (but interestingly did not appeal the decision) and have come up with this ill conceived Bill. The NSA (National Shooters Association) have put a huge amount of work into fighting this Bill already. Please visit the website nsanz.org.nz There you will find all the resources needed to make a submission. The closing date for submissions is Thursday, 16 June 2011 You know what needs to be done. Doing nothing is not an option.
I urge you guys to take a few minutes to make a submission to the select comitee and even to your Local MP.
The more opposing the bill the better. Could you imagine if the police cheif decides that anything with a thumb hole stock or 5 shot capacity becomes MSSA? even bolt actions.
nsanz.org.nz has all the resources you need to put together a submission.
New Arms bill in the pipeline.
New Arms bill in the pipeline.
To Boon or not to Boon.
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
Cheers for bringing this to our attention.
I'll be making my submission asap.
Thanks.
Pete.
I'll be making my submission asap.
Thanks.
Pete.
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
I've had the amendment for a while now. This is copied from it:
This Bill proposes that a different approach to defining an MSSA is taken to make it more easily understood and more adaptable to future changes in firearms manufacturing. This involves wording the definition in the positive as a semi-automatic firearm that has 1 or more specified features, rather than in the negative with a list of features that a firearm in sporting configuration (that is not an MSSA) must be without. The definition also provides for certain features to be defined in regulations. This applies in respect of the feature of a pistol grip. The definition also allows for particular firearms and types of firearms to be declared as MSSAs in regulations.
From my understanding (which could be wrong
) is it is only for replica airguns and semi auto firearms as well as importation. The aim from what I can tell is to clarify what makes an MSSA esp in regard to free standing pistol grips. If you want the PDF with all the info pm me otherwise it can be found on the government website.
I saw the commissioner mentioned a couple times but don't remember anything about giving them the right to re-designate "any" firearm as MSSA just ones that meet those criteria?
This Bill proposes that a different approach to defining an MSSA is taken to make it more easily understood and more adaptable to future changes in firearms manufacturing. This involves wording the definition in the positive as a semi-automatic firearm that has 1 or more specified features, rather than in the negative with a list of features that a firearm in sporting configuration (that is not an MSSA) must be without. The definition also provides for certain features to be defined in regulations. This applies in respect of the feature of a pistol grip. The definition also allows for particular firearms and types of firearms to be declared as MSSAs in regulations.
From my understanding (which could be wrong
) is it is only for replica airguns and semi auto firearms as well as importation. The aim from what I can tell is to clarify what makes an MSSA esp in regard to free standing pistol grips. If you want the PDF with all the info pm me otherwise it can be found on the government website.I saw the commissioner mentioned a couple times but don't remember anything about giving them the right to re-designate "any" firearm as MSSA just ones that meet those criteria?
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
the whole arms importation thing could do with a tidy up, the market is swamped with imported, cheap rifles at the mo, all imitation or knock off versions of ak47s and the like, I dont know much about them nor do I want to. Its these firearms that could put genuine firearm ownership in jeapordy.
I am a firm believer that if a person wishes to shoot a mssa rifle or pistol in a range or target enviroment, they should join a club.
If they were restricted to only be used in that enviroment then the importation of pallets of the cheap shit would not be viable.
Now this is not to say be rid of the cheap firearms for beginers, as there are hundreds of 2nd hand quality guns for sale and many of them chaeaper and far better quality than some of the ones the police are trying to restrict.
I dont believe that anything with a capacity of over 5 rounds will become mssa as that would restrict evev the most basic of 22lr bolt actions
I have seen moriarty post on here about accuracy and practise, and although he is 2 centuries older than me I totally agree, when I was 1st allowed the 22lr to shoot rabbits, I was sent out with only one bullet, and what I did with it was up to me. What it did was teach me to take each shot slowely and make it count not build on the theory that as long as there is lead in the air there is hope. This has lead on to me shooting my last 6 deer, all sika stags with 6 bullets.
That doesnt make me a sniper just careful.
Summed up, I think the arms code is outdated and needs work, and with the right imput from nzdsa and other associations it can be done to suit the sporting needs of all kiwis.
I am a firm believer that if a person wishes to shoot a mssa rifle or pistol in a range or target enviroment, they should join a club.
If they were restricted to only be used in that enviroment then the importation of pallets of the cheap shit would not be viable.
Now this is not to say be rid of the cheap firearms for beginers, as there are hundreds of 2nd hand quality guns for sale and many of them chaeaper and far better quality than some of the ones the police are trying to restrict.
I dont believe that anything with a capacity of over 5 rounds will become mssa as that would restrict evev the most basic of 22lr bolt actions
I have seen moriarty post on here about accuracy and practise, and although he is 2 centuries older than me I totally agree, when I was 1st allowed the 22lr to shoot rabbits, I was sent out with only one bullet, and what I did with it was up to me. What it did was teach me to take each shot slowely and make it count not build on the theory that as long as there is lead in the air there is hope. This has lead on to me shooting my last 6 deer, all sika stags with 6 bullets.
That doesnt make me a sniper just careful.
Summed up, I think the arms code is outdated and needs work, and with the right imput from nzdsa and other associations it can be done to suit the sporting needs of all kiwis.
swb lux with 7mge, trailgear crossover, trailgear rear lift kit, custom front bar, runva 1200lb winch, custom snorkel, 37" Mtrs, custom deck, lockright in the rear.
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Moriarty
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Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
Lots of very right comments in those posts of Haynzys and Swamped.
except the one about how much older then he am I...
Beware of the police making policy, this is NOT their brief.
Their brief is to enforce govt policy and the criminal code.
how dare they tell the govt what THEY want to see as law?
all rifles are derived from arms designed for military use.
In fact, it was for military use that ALL guns were first designed, is THIS sufficient to now classify all arms as MSSA? The humble 22 was derived from a large rimfire rifle that was designed as a man killer in its first outing, Sporting arms cam a distant second.
(all non military rifles are sporting, game or target are the same, SPORTING)
Take the wee Ruger .44 rem mag carbine. IT'S father is that useless fkn 30 cal US carbine, which also spawned thr ruger 22 semi.
Does this make the 44 and the 22 MSSA? neither of which has a pistol grip, 15 rnd or bigger magazine, to name but two reasons not to.
The dogooders are out, and have been for many years, to remove all firearms from the hands of private ownership.
One must ask ones self, WHY? are they that naive to think that the gangs will hand their stolen guns in if they govt outlaws private guns?
There is another aspect to this too. WE humans are the ONLY large opredator in NZ. How will the Govt control Deer, possums ducks swan geese etc if there are NO private shooters?
1080 of course, by the millions of tons, Just for fun, Google this
The Silent Spring, by Rachel Carson.
Swamped, could you email me that PDF please?
except the one about how much older then he am I...
Beware of the police making policy, this is NOT their brief.
Their brief is to enforce govt policy and the criminal code.
how dare they tell the govt what THEY want to see as law?
all rifles are derived from arms designed for military use.
In fact, it was for military use that ALL guns were first designed, is THIS sufficient to now classify all arms as MSSA? The humble 22 was derived from a large rimfire rifle that was designed as a man killer in its first outing, Sporting arms cam a distant second.
(all non military rifles are sporting, game or target are the same, SPORTING)
Take the wee Ruger .44 rem mag carbine. IT'S father is that useless fkn 30 cal US carbine, which also spawned thr ruger 22 semi.
Does this make the 44 and the 22 MSSA? neither of which has a pistol grip, 15 rnd or bigger magazine, to name but two reasons not to.
The dogooders are out, and have been for many years, to remove all firearms from the hands of private ownership.
One must ask ones self, WHY? are they that naive to think that the gangs will hand their stolen guns in if they govt outlaws private guns?
There is another aspect to this too. WE humans are the ONLY large opredator in NZ. How will the Govt control Deer, possums ducks swan geese etc if there are NO private shooters?
1080 of course, by the millions of tons, Just for fun, Google this
The Silent Spring, by Rachel Carson.
Swamped, could you email me that PDF please?
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
At the risk of causing endless crap replies about “it’s my right” and “in my day I trained my dog to shoot the dags off a bag of potato’s chips from sixteen distances, coz in my day that’s what we called the Vietnamese, anyway where was I, oh we were so poor we made our rifles out of pinecones and breadcrumbs, and it was so long ago measures of distances hadn’t been invented”
edit: Bugger, too late
If you want to go play with military weapons then go join the military, become a collector or go play dress up’s with yah soft air guns.
If you read of some of the attached web sites, lots of half truths and subjective interpretation, not to mention the big brother stuff. I suspect that the writer and his mis-informed cohorts sleep with tinfoil around there heads and had recently dug themselves in whist waiting for the end of the world.
edit: Bugger, too late
If you want to go play with military weapons then go join the military, become a collector or go play dress up’s with yah soft air guns.
If you read of some of the attached web sites, lots of half truths and subjective interpretation, not to mention the big brother stuff. I suspect that the writer and his mis-informed cohorts sleep with tinfoil around there heads and had recently dug themselves in whist waiting for the end of the world.
Last edited by Bubba on Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
Benjamin Franklin
Benjamin Franklin
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
Bubba wrote:At the causing endless crap replies about “it’s my right” and “in my day I trained my dog to shoot the dags off a bag of potato’s chips from sixteen distances, coz in my day that’s what we called the Vietnamese, anyway where was I, oh we were so poor we made our rifles out of pinecones and breadcrumbs, and it was so long ago measures of distances hadn’t been invented”
edit: Bugger, too late
If you want to go play with military weapons then go join the military, become a collector or go play dress up’s with yah soft air guns.
If you read of some of the attached web sites, lots of half truths and subjective interpretation, not to mention the big brother stuff. I suspect that the writer and his mis-informed cohorts sleep with tinfoil around there heads and had recently dug themselves in whist waiting for the end of the world.
well said.... I think
swb lux with 7mge, trailgear crossover, trailgear rear lift kit, custom front bar, runva 1200lb winch, custom snorkel, 37" Mtrs, custom deck, lockright in the rear.
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Moriarty
- Hard Yaka
- Posts: 1205
- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: The newly formed Nation of OKATO
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
haynzy wrote:Bubba wrote:At the causing endless crap replies about “it’s my right” and “in my day I trained my dog to shoot the dags off a bag of potato’s chips from sixteen distances, coz in my day that’s what we called the Vietnamese, anyway where was I, oh we were so poor we made our rifles out of pinecones and breadcrumbs, and it was so long ago measures of distances hadn’t been invented”
edit: Bugger, too late
If you want to go play with military weapons then go join the military, become a collector or go play dress up’s with yah soft air guns.
If you read of some of the attached web sites, lots of half truths and subjective interpretation, not to mention the big brother stuff. I suspect that the writer and his mis-informed cohorts sleep with tinfoil around there heads and had recently dug themselves in whist waiting for the end of the world.
well said.... I think
yup, well said, but WHAT THE FK did he say?
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
haynzy wrote:the whole arms importation thing could do with a tidy up, the market is swamped with imported,
If they were restricted to only be used in that enviroment then the importation of pallets of the cheap shit would not be viable.
Now this is not to say be rid of the cheap firearms for beginers, as there are hundreds of 2nd hand quality guns for sale and many of them chaeaper and far better quality than some of the ones the police are trying to restrict.
I dont believe that anything with a capacity of over 5 rounds will become mssa as that would restrict evev the most basic of 22lr bolt actions
I have seen moriarty post on here about accuracy and practise, and although he is 2 centuries older than me I totally agree, when I was 1st allowed the 22lr to shoot rabbits, I was sent out with only one bullet, and what I did with it was up to me. What it did was teach me to take each shot slowely and make it count not build on the theory that as long as there is lead in the air there is hope. This has lead on to me shooting my last 6 deer, all sika stags with 6 bullets.
That doesnt make me a sniper just careful.
Summed up, I think the arms code is outdated and needs work, and with the right imput from nzdsa and other associations it can be done to suit the sporting needs of all kiwis.
The issue here is responsibility,if the Police vet you fit and propper to have a firearm,does it matter if its a AK Clone or a Single shot?Its down to the user to use it within the law.The Police want to have the power to decide what is and is not allowed.
"You say cheap rifles at the mo, all imitation or knock off versions of ak47s and the like, I dont know much about them nor do I want to. Its these firearms that could put genuine firearm ownership in jeapordy.
I am a firm believer that if a person wishes to shoot a mssa rifle or pistol in a range or target enviroment, they should join a club"
They are not "MSSA's" if you want a "MSSA" you have to be approved,actually be a member of a club and have a Safe of 6mm Steel or thicker.When you wear your MSSA out,you have to hand it in for destruction before you are granted permission to buy another.
"Cheap knock offs" If it wasn't for the flood of cheap 4X4's over the last 30 years what would you be driving?
You want people to use MSSA's and Pistols on a range?Why? Thats like saying "all 4X4's should only be used on private land".
Its great that you shot 6 Deer with 6 shots,but whats wrong with someone firing 60 shots and cleaning up a Mob of Goats?Or 120 Shots at a Stump in the back of know where?
The "them and us" attitude of firearms owners in New Zeland will be the Shooters demise unless we stand together.
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
Ok, here we have it.
A Cat.
E Cat.
Even ignoring the Flash hider and larger capacity mag.
Whats the difference in the lethality? None.
I dont trust the police to be able to do whatever they want with law.
Today its Pistol Grips, tomorrow its semi`s, then Pumps then High Capacity Bolt Actions until we`re down to single shot rifles. We dont want to go down OZ's and Englands road.
A Cat.
E Cat.
Even ignoring the Flash hider and larger capacity mag.
Whats the difference in the lethality? None.
I dont trust the police to be able to do whatever they want with law.
Today its Pistol Grips, tomorrow its semi`s, then Pumps then High Capacity Bolt Actions until we`re down to single shot rifles. We dont want to go down OZ's and Englands road.
To Boon or not to Boon.
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
What's wrong with limiting firearms to 5 shot magazine and bolt action? Responsible game hunters do not need rapid-fire semi-auto's or high capacity magazine. And they do not match with the desire for careful target selection and carefully aimed shots. Anything else is likey to result in rounds where they shouldn't be. I'd define anything else as a MSSA, with a simple test to determine a persons suitability to own one - If they don't want one, then they pass the test - if they do, then they shouldn't be allowed!
This may sound extreme - but it's based on 15 years in the Army which included a year in Bosnia where I've witnessed the effects by assisting in the clean-up by evacuating a large number of dead & dying men, women and children, resulting from indiscriminate gunfire. These things aren't toys. No firearms are - but I recognise the legitimate needs and sporting applications. But high rates of fire are not compatible with those purposes.
This may sound extreme - but it's based on 15 years in the Army which included a year in Bosnia where I've witnessed the effects by assisting in the clean-up by evacuating a large number of dead & dying men, women and children, resulting from indiscriminate gunfire. These things aren't toys. No firearms are - but I recognise the legitimate needs and sporting applications. But high rates of fire are not compatible with those purposes.
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pruggerdore
- Hard Yaka
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- Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:14 am
- Location: hawkes bay
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
the gun laws are fine. I mean if you want to shoot at someone you can do it with single shot or a 50 shot. either way the person is dead. the police vetting decides who is sane and can have a gun so once proven to be responsible then I dont care wat sort of cannon you have. maybe the gun safe thing could be tightened up so the more and biger the cannons are you have the more security you have to have so they dont fall into the wrong hands. maybe make it a requirement if you have more than 3 or something you have to be a participating member of a gun club. so other members would be able to keep an eye on each other and if someone is getting out off hand they would then be able to report to the police. ..... people kill people not guns. vet the people not the guns... the criminals dont care either way if they want guns they will have them any way.
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
Of course if you have the best security in the world and someone "visits" your home, presents a fire arm (just a dunger .22 will do), puts it under your loved ones chin then that safe/security sustem may as well be a net curtain. Doesnt take much to visit a gun club, get a rego or follow someone home does it.
The best security is not having lists scattered about the country for hackers etc to find. Check out the response to the "Secure lists" in Canada. They were copied and then legitimate owners recieved visits like the one above. After spending millions on the system it was scrapped but too late as the damage was well and truely done.
As for the class system (a, e, etc) it works. Perhaps a little tightening up on vetting but for the most part it is fine. Perhaps a membership to a club would be advantageous to keep an eye on people but who wants to join a club just to have a .22 for rabbit/possum control or a shottie for ducks once a year. See the furoray when it was suggested that modified truck drivers would need to join a club to be allowed those mods (happening in Aussie now).
I have a few bang sticks for certain purposes. Rabbits, goats, small deer, target shooting, etc. They dont get used as much as I would like (or the wifes liking, to justify them ), but I am safe, they are secure, they are used within the confines of the law. I will teach my friends and family members anything they want to know about them so they can be safe too if they want and so they know that I am a safe individual to be around.
The problem with all this extra vetting, security, licencing, etc is that the legal users will get stung again (remember the new dog laws did they stop kids getting bitten?) and the criminals who by definition are the breakers of the law will continue to do what they have always done - BREAK THE LAW - regardless of whether it is tightened up or not.
Now I agree that it is too simple to gain a licence here when and maybe for that first year you should be under the control of a club (like the pistol clubs), but maybe it should just be a voluntary thing with time bars placed on the type of calibre you can have. Although having said that a .22 in the head will make you just as dead as a 270 in the head. I guess the system is fine as is (perhaps a few tweeks) but the police shouldnt get to call the shots as to what is and what isnt legal, that's the job of our duly elected oafficials (yes spelling mistake intentional). The system isnt perfect but its not that bad either.
Look at the gun laws in the US - california for instance - really tight and yet their gun related crime is still high (people who break the law and want a gun can get them anywhere - try a dodgy looking fishing boat from off shore...) and in NZ with a high population of gun useres per capita our gun crime is relatively low. The UK banned pistols, etc and yet there are gun crimes all the time with these banned weapons.
Did the crims not get the memo that they werent allowed to use the weapons of choice anymore? Or did they just decide not to pay attention to it and do what they wanted like they always did before?
Aussie has banned most weapons and they just dissappeared. The big amnesty on semis etc was expected to land them piles of now"illegal" weapons but instead they dissappeared so thay have lost control over them. Seems the legal owners are now criminals too.
Some of these cheaper weapons (SKS, AK clones, Mosin nagants, etc) have been coming here for years and they have enabled beginners to engage in their sport of choice , be it meat gathering, target shooting, pest control, or more specialised shooting disciplines (Military styled shoots with mil styled weapons for example). If they were gone tomorrow shooting would become the preserve of the rich elite (yes grandstanding I know).
How many people here cut their teeth on a cheap imported car when they were young? How many deaths did those imported cheap cars cost the country? How many injuries? And yet they werent banned.
How many fat people have diabetes etc through eating crappy fats food like McD's, KFC, etc? How many have died because of these diets? Have we banned them yet because of the potential harm they cause?
Lets not enter the debate about smoking or drinking either because as we all know they can both kill us, but they arent banned.
When you add up all the road deaths, smoking and booze deaths, eating related deaths what do they total? Does the shooting fatalities in NZ and gun related crime even look remotely important alongside those statistics and yet we gun users get targeted.
Go figure.
But come the day the zombies attack, My familly will be fine.
The best security is not having lists scattered about the country for hackers etc to find. Check out the response to the "Secure lists" in Canada. They were copied and then legitimate owners recieved visits like the one above. After spending millions on the system it was scrapped but too late as the damage was well and truely done.
As for the class system (a, e, etc) it works. Perhaps a little tightening up on vetting but for the most part it is fine. Perhaps a membership to a club would be advantageous to keep an eye on people but who wants to join a club just to have a .22 for rabbit/possum control or a shottie for ducks once a year. See the furoray when it was suggested that modified truck drivers would need to join a club to be allowed those mods (happening in Aussie now).
I have a few bang sticks for certain purposes. Rabbits, goats, small deer, target shooting, etc. They dont get used as much as I would like (or the wifes liking, to justify them
), but I am safe, they are secure, they are used within the confines of the law. I will teach my friends and family members anything they want to know about them so they can be safe too if they want and so they know that I am a safe individual to be around.The problem with all this extra vetting, security, licencing, etc is that the legal users will get stung again (remember the new dog laws did they stop kids getting bitten?) and the criminals who by definition are the breakers of the law will continue to do what they have always done - BREAK THE LAW - regardless of whether it is tightened up or not.
Now I agree that it is too simple to gain a licence here when and maybe for that first year you should be under the control of a club (like the pistol clubs), but maybe it should just be a voluntary thing with time bars placed on the type of calibre you can have. Although having said that a .22 in the head will make you just as dead as a 270 in the head. I guess the system is fine as is (perhaps a few tweeks) but the police shouldnt get to call the shots as to what is and what isnt legal, that's the job of our duly elected oafficials (yes spelling mistake intentional). The system isnt perfect but its not that bad either.
Look at the gun laws in the US - california for instance - really tight and yet their gun related crime is still high (people who break the law and want a gun can get them anywhere - try a dodgy looking fishing boat from off shore...) and in NZ with a high population of gun useres per capita our gun crime is relatively low. The UK banned pistols, etc and yet there are gun crimes all the time with these banned weapons.
Did the crims not get the memo that they werent allowed to use the weapons of choice anymore? Or did they just decide not to pay attention to it and do what they wanted like they always did before?
Aussie has banned most weapons and they just dissappeared. The big amnesty on semis etc was expected to land them piles of now"illegal" weapons but instead they dissappeared so thay have lost control over them. Seems the legal owners are now criminals too.
Some of these cheaper weapons (SKS, AK clones, Mosin nagants, etc) have been coming here for years and they have enabled beginners to engage in their sport of choice , be it meat gathering, target shooting, pest control, or more specialised shooting disciplines (Military styled shoots with mil styled weapons for example). If they were gone tomorrow shooting would become the preserve of the rich elite (yes grandstanding I know).
How many people here cut their teeth on a cheap imported car when they were young? How many deaths did those imported cheap cars cost the country? How many injuries? And yet they werent banned.
How many fat people have diabetes etc through eating crappy fats food like McD's, KFC, etc? How many have died because of these diets? Have we banned them yet because of the potential harm they cause?
Lets not enter the debate about smoking or drinking either because as we all know they can both kill us, but they arent banned.
When you add up all the road deaths, smoking and booze deaths, eating related deaths what do they total? Does the shooting fatalities in NZ and gun related crime even look remotely important alongside those statistics and yet we gun users get targeted.
Go figure.
But come the day the zombies attack, My familly will be fine.
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
Heath wrote:But come the day the zombies attack, My familly will be fine.
I`m in training already....
And I have no problem with Mag caps, 7 is a bit strange as its just a number someone picked, 10 makes more sence, being more easily available, but thats for another debate, However Pistol grips make no difference to a weapons lethality. yet a firearm equipped with one is instantly an E-Cat ?
To Boon or not to Boon.
Re: New Arms bill in the pipeline.
T-Boon wrote:Heath wrote:But come the day the zombies attack, My familly will be fine.
I`m in training already....
And I have no problem with Mag caps, 7 is a bit strange as its just a number someone picked, 10 makes more sence, being more easily available, but thats for another debate, However Pistol grips make no difference to a weapons lethality. yet a firearm equipped with one is instantly an E-Cat ?
This is the problem a gun with std stock is fine but fit another type and it's a different class. Thats BS. Havent checked the rules but thought it was a combination of factors (mag cap, bayonete lugs, freestanding pistol grip, Semi auto,Etc) that make it an E cat not just one factor, but I could be wrong.
Its a nasty mess being made worse by beaurocrats who really dont know what they are doing and going by sight alone.
