Problem with the Lemon

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:00 pm

got me a slight problem I want to run a tucked gearbox but it leaves my driveshaft to steep

and

As you can see I've pushed the whole lot as far forward as I can go... I'm gona have to put the radiator somewhere else now :roll:

but I'm still looking at a 30 deg rear drive shaft, I'm gona clock teh rear gearbox round so that the transfer box is level that will drop the back output by an inch, as for pushing the rear axle back its at 112" now I don't really want to go any further back
Possible options as I see it, portal the rear output to lower it :shock:

or attack the G52 boxes there is alot of wasted space in the rear of each box that I should be able to shorten

Just thought I'd post this one for you guys to shake your heads over :lol:

Cheers Reece

niblik · Post by **niblik** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:09 pm

double cardon and the shortening of unwanted 'spare' space.. :mrgreen:

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:11 pm

the DC is sitting on the frame and yea I think its time to pull the boxes to bits again and start playing

Cheers Reece

Post by **mike** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:52 pm

leaf under with blocks :lol:

I reckon portal all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted:

would be the first one built on ORE in the 4 years its been up

Take that as an official challenge from the ORE community. you can doeeet batman :batman:

Mike

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:52 am

Sorry mike, I was chatting to Nib and 2's last night and came to the conclusion that shortening the gearboxs is better, decided to nip out to the shed after talking to them and started stripping a spare box.... I think I can shorten the whole assembly by 10" :twisted:

possibly as much as a foot

And since I'm doing this it means yet again I've built something I didn't need :roll:

if I'm building my own cases for the gearbox then I don't need the dual gearbox adapter I can just make it integral to the front box

Oh well anybody want to buy my dual gearbox adapter :roll:

Cheers Reece

SupraSurf · Post by **SupraSurf** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:07 am

Looks kool

Don't write what you have done off ----> Have another look:

1. I would lower the gearbox a bit - don't sweat a bit of underhang, make a nice cross member that will slide without hanging up.

2. You've no weight on the Coon springs to bring the diff closer to the chassis - drop some heavy shite on the rear of the chassis and remeasure. Hangin the motor / box over the hole isn't a real test, maybe put some planks across the chassis rails and dump the motor / box onto the chassis

I bet once you do this and use a double cardin you'll be sweet !!

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:19 am

Coon springs are going

where teh axle is sitting at the moment is roughly where it will sit with on the coils and 4 bar linkage

As for dropping the box'es :lol:

no way.... I'm not copping out :twisted:

I'm gona do this!!

Right heres what I've got worked out so far

I can shorten my 4 speed box by 125mm by cutting the drive shaft back to the edge of the 5th gear spline and machining a new spline on there to take the joiner sleave.... there is just enough meat there to do it

This will mean I shorten the rear case back to the red line :twisted:

I'll have to rebuild the shifter linkage abit to shorten it up some but there's room

oh and convert the rear tranfer case shifters to work out of there box not the gearbox... but thats a no brainer

For the front box I'm running fifth gear

and don't really want to give it up so the only option I've got is to cut the joiners spline back onto the collar behind the joiner that plus some better tollerancing will get my adapter plate down to 19mm

giving me an all up saving of 150mm that plus clocking the second box anti clockwise to lift the front drive shaft output and lowering the whole deal should get me pretty close

Oh Mike I looked at the planetary idea, the easist option I could come up with, get a chain drive transfer case (off an auto) and use the front drive output shaft, chain and a custom made gear to fit the output on my current transfer and build a custom housing.... easy...ish :lol:

but that custom gear will cost me somewhere round $900 :shock:

and thats without buying the donar box

shortening the boxes (above) will only cost me time and somewhere round $80 in carbide mills

Cheers Reece

NuTTa · Post by **NuTTa** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:25 am

S&*t Reece, if anyone can you it your definately the man for the job.!! go hard and multiply..well your amount of gear changes anyway...lol..

how many gears will you have.??

Cheers
Brendon

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:31 am

Only 5 gears ...... but I'll have 4 ranges and high low :twisted:

Got a rain off today so I'll see how far I get

Cheers Reece

Post by **mike** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:02 am

After all that reduction you still need portals as you dont want to get hung up on the diffs with big rocks

turoa · Post by **turoa** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:29 am

mike wrote:After all that reduction you still need portals as you dont want to get hung up on the diffs with big rocks

I think he means a portal on the back of the T-case to drop the output down :wink:

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:49 am

T's on to it .... but yea portal axles would be nice

but thats something a wee bit further down the track

Cheers Reece

DJ · Post by DJ » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:01 pm

just a thought dont know if .... but have you had a good look at using a CV joint instead of cardons they can transmit the torque and will swing thru a greater angle than a UJ system. maybe doubling up to run two cv's back to back as per hilux driveshafts. this may save you from machining shafts and cutting gearboxs
just a thought :?:

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:02 pm

DJ wrote:just a thought dont know if .... but have you had a good look at using a CV joint instead of cardons they can transmit the torque and will swing thru a greater angle than a UJ system. maybe doubling up to run two cv's back to back as per hilux driveshafts. this may save you from machining shafts and cutting gearboxs
just a thought

Unless you go for fancy ones CV's usually can't handle the rpm as the boots fly to bits.

Cheers
Clint

DJ · Post by DJ » Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:51 pm

the type of CV's I was thinking of would be from an Independant rear wheel drive, say, skyline or something simular, as they dont have boot problems and are turning out decent revs and torque. They also have a shaft which would lend its self to modifications very easily.
Just thinking out loud..

NuTTa · Post by **NuTTa** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:55 pm

got a complete rear diff assembly (seperate diff head type with axles and cv's) here if you want it Reece, Steve's coming down friday for the weekend and he's bringing a trailer, so he could take it back for you if ya want it..

Cheers
Btrendon

Jafa · Post by **Jafa** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:21 pm

Crazy action goin on here Reece, I luv it!
If you are goin to give the dual adapter the miss, then I'll give you a good price for it. PM me or txt

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:33 pm

Hey Nutta is that a skyline like DJ was talking about ?? if so I'd be keen to have a look

might still do some thing with them but I've already started onto my spare box part of the housing is in the mill now getting prep'ed for joining and I've machined the spline down ready to grind the new one in

And yes it is Jaffa but you do realise this is a dual gearbox not dual transfer

cheers Reece

NuTTa · Post by **NuTTa** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:37 pm

as far as i know it's sim to the skyline.(but this is a toyota cressida.).they have the diff mounted in the centre of the rear subframe and the axles going out to the rear disc's...i'll get steve to give me a hand to rip it out this weekend for you

there is a guy down the road who's a skyline nutt i'll see what he's got too...

Cheers
Brendon

mercutio · Post by **mercutio** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:55 pm

i was under the impression rear CVs can handle alot more because they only work in one plane i.e fwd cvs go up and down and steer as well rwd CVs just go up and down and as a result can handle more power

so maybe they could work as a drive shaft

correct me if i am wrong

DJ · Post by DJ » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:55 pm

maybe they could work as a drive shaft

thats what I had in mind

rwd CVs just go up and down

dont quite understand but the plan changes upon rotation ie if the wheel is hanging down under full extension and compression of the suspension and the vehical remains in normal ride hight then the axle CV must still rotate without binding.

SMOKEY · Post by **SMOKEY** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:36 pm

Just me thinking out loud and it is early in the morning. How about a high pinion diff; head from the front of a late model toyota in the rear housing?
that would reduce the drive shaft angle.
FITZY.

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:46 am

thought about that.... I don't have one tho :roll:

and I an't going to "Ju$t Comer$al$

Just a thought will the 2 spider Lokka fit in those ???

Cheers Reece

JTop · Post by **JTop** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:39 am

Would a high pinion in the rear not go backwards?
J Top

lilpigzuk · Post by **lilpigzuk** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:59 am

Clint wrote:
DJ wrote:just a thought dont know if .... but have you had a good look at using a CV joint instead of cardons they can transmit the torque and will swing thru a greater angle than a UJ system. maybe doubling up to run two cv's back to back as per hilux driveshafts. this may save you from machining shafts and cutting gearboxs
just a thought

Unless you go for fancy ones CV's usually can't handle the rpm as the boots fly to bits.

Cheers
Clint

Would this still not be a problem using a CV?? Assume you diffs are (for arguements sake) 4.??:1, then if the CV is mounted on you driveshaft then it will be doing 4 x the normal revolutions it was designed for?? Dunno if that makes sense or is relevant. The ole thinking out loud :oops:

turoa · Post by **turoa** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:26 am

JTop wrote:Would a high pinion in the rear not go backwards?
J Top

I thought they had reverse cut gears? and the t-cases reversed the output so the front and rear diffs turn different directions? i.e the front diff is turning in reverse to the rear diff?

Apparently a high pinion is stronger on the front because its not a rear diff turning in reverse?

I think im confusing myself :scratch:

matwelli · Post by **matwelli** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:31 pm

Reece,

Initially I thought about rotating the diff 90 deg so that the pinion is pointing straight up.
On top of that mount a bevel gear set up that has the input flange pointing at the gear box, saw this set up on a US rock crawler. They hade made it Quite compact

Finally came to my senses, I agree that you need to shorten all your gearboxes up as you need as long of a drive shaft as you can get.

The problem that you have at the moment is with such a short drive shaft there will be a large length change needed as the diff goes up and down (apart from the drive shaft angle, CV's are only good for about 22 deg angle max, and at most only ever spin at 1/3 of the engine RPM due to the reduction gears in the diff).
With such a short shaft you are going to need a very long slip joint as well as all these expensive CV's.

I know you already know this, but havent posted in a while so thought I would "dribble" on for a while

Also dont know about the statement that CV's have a greater working angle than U-joints, alot of long travel offroaders use U-joints for stength, normally Nissan 180B's or 280Z's. CV joints are popular in the modern vehicile because of the "constant velocity" output that they have,U-joints speed up and slow down thru their revolution, more so at greater angles, and this causes vibration.[/i]

DJ · Post by DJ » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:41 pm

most only ever spin at 1/3 of the engine RPM due to the reduction gears in the diff).

not if fitted to a drive shaft as per some 4wd cars and some light trucks which is where Im refering to. Its not revs that does damage, its Torque!

expensive CV's

have you brought a UJ lately?

CV's have a greater working angle than U-joints

could be correct but angles wouldnt vary too much. You would want to build in a tolerence therefore I suggessed ( only a thought ) that two back to back could be interesting. but as correctly stated the lenght of the slip could be a killer. If all else fails a crank with two rods coming foward on to a simiular but at 45 deg , crank inside the cab with peddle attachments will work.

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:07 pm

Gidday Matt

Yea been busy with the toy your dead right the best thing I can do is shorten things as much as possible to that end I've.. butchered the rear case half and milled it ready to be welded up :twisted:

Oh and worked out how to sort out remote shifting the second box

I'm gona shift it using the transfer box shifter bolted on the front box

caught the tool shop on the way home this arvo didn't have my grinding wheels so I can't cut the spline yet

Got bored so I lowered the motor mounts and started welding all the bits I had tacked onto the frame, was gona strip the frame back and jig it so I could spin it as I welded

couldn't be bothered so I just started welding :lol:

From what I know and have read up on all this
UJ's are used on high angle driveshafts becouse they have a better range of travel than DC's but the trade off is the greater teh angle the worse the eliptical (fast-slow) rotation and are stronger becoase they are usually a larger cross than DC crosses
The DC joint minimises that eleptical rotation minimising all stress's associated with it.... these stress's can be a big issue on road going trucks
CV's to be honest I know bugger all other than they are supposed to be the most efficent at transmitting torgue and they have issues on extreme angles (go have a look at the posts on birfield joints on Pirate :wink:

) but I'm still keen to see if I can do some thing with them, mainly depends on how long the jiont is (longer it is the steeper it makes the angle

)

One other piont, there was a post that a driveshaft CV will take less punishment than a steering drive one and a comment about it only working on one plane....

this is wrong there is no difference (I know I'm gona explain this bad :roll:

but here goes...)
on the drive shaft you move in one plane of travel to the edge of its travel
now for the one in the steering axle you go down and then forward till you reach the edge of its travel... all you have done is vector (make an imaginery triangle, down forward and the straight line back to the start that coincidentally matches the movement of the single plane drive shaft
:wink:

... well I understand what I wrote :lol:

Long travel slip jionts are no worry's all I'm gona do is get some treatable steel shaft mill it with the same slip joint splines as the standard slip joint I'll make this as long as needed I'll then cut the old female spline off the standard shaft and fit it to the end of a piece of tube on the new shaft the tube will be long enough to let all the male spline slid up inside :wink:

clever ha

Hopefully have the grinding wheels tomorrow morning so I can start tomorrow :roll:

another rain off

Cheers Reece

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:12 pm

DJ your not talking about pedal power are you.... have you seen my tires you'd need thighs the size of godzilla to push those :twisted:

thats not a bad idea there DJ hmmm ag-chain

and a couple of cogs.... yay problem solved :lol:

Cheeers Reece