Feedback / letter to Ed NZ4WD

[WRNGLR]

anyone read the 4x4 tyre size= track damage blurb in the September NZ4wd mag. Looks like Muzzaduck aka Murray Waters strikes again, pushing his tire size theory on everyone, and this time he's gone as far as to say Peter Vahry is "well meaning but misguided"

[LOLYF]

We received an "open letter" to our 4wheel drive club from that idiot a couple of weeks ago, had the whole club in stitches .

We elected to ignore it as replying would just add fuel to his fire.

I'll have to get the mag and see if it's all the same crap.

[Mudde1]

anyone read the 4x4 tyre size= track damage blurb in the September NZ4wd mag. Looks like Muzzaduck aka Murray Waters strikes again, pushing his tire size theory on everyone, and this time he's gone as far as to say Peter Vahry is "well meaning but misguided"

NZFWDA also received a copy of the letter. We have written to him him and thanked him for his letter and but don't intend to do any more about it.
Tony Burgess
President NZFWDA

[Sadam_Husain]

to be honest other than my truck being on the front cover of that edition I think Murray Fluffyducks letter was probably the best part of the whole mag I usually find theres nothing much of interest to read in it its all about brand new soft roaders and David Coxon's articles that would probably be better off submitted to the Womans Weekly than a 4WD mag. Whether you agree with fluffyducks opinion or not and although I support what hes advocating about the need for track management I dont find him or his flawed arguements paticulary credible but its his opinion and hes entitled to it the same as the rest of us are entitled to our opinions. A regular letters to the editor collum with left and right views might help lift my interest in the mag

[MikeL200]

to be honest other than my truck being on the front cover of that edition I think Murray Fluffyducks letter was probably the best part of the whole mag I usually find theres nothing much of interest to read in it its all about brand new soft roaders and David Coxon's articles that would probably be better off submitted to the Womans Weekly than a 4WD mag. Whether you agree with fluffyducks opinion or not and although I support what hes advocating about the need for track management I dont find him or his flawed arguements paticulary credible but its his opinion and hes entitled to it the same as the rest of us are entitled to our opinions. A regular letters to the editor collum with left and right views might help lift my interest in the mag

"Like"

[DaveM]

to be honest other than my truck being on the front cover of that edition I think Murray Fluffyducks letter was probably the best part of the whole mag I usually find theres nothing much of interest to read in it its all about brand new soft roaders and David Coxon's articles that would probably be better off submitted to the Womans Weekly than a 4WD mag. Whether you agree with fluffyducks opinion or not and although I support what hes advocating about the need for track management I dont find him or his flawed arguements paticulary credible but its his opinion and hes entitled to it the same as the rest of us are entitled to our opinions. A regular letters to the editor collum with left and right views might help lift my interest in the mag

I agree, and await the day that you need to have a club chit to run larger than 33" tyres

[Ralfie]

A regular letters to the editor collum with left and right views might help lift my interest in the mag

Most people these days are quick to say their little piece on forums like this, but don't take the time to write letters to editors of magazines anymore. Otherwise there would be more conflicting views expressed in publications, womans weekly or otherwise.
Murray Fluffyduck apparently did, so gets his point out there.

[lin]

I've read the letter from Murray Waters. Firstly there seems to be a certain obsessiveness on the part of the writer that "his way is the right way" . Anyone disagreeing with his viewpoint might be labelled a "track vandal".

Secondly, his assertion that tyres with a greater diameter than 33 inches cause excessive track damage. Is it supported by evidence? He certainly offers plenty of opinion, but where is the science-based evidence?

If we start with the hypothesis that a spinning wheel does far more damage than a rolling wheel, then:

1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage.

2. A larger diameter tyre has a lower ground pressure than a smaller diameter tyre due to it's longer footprint. P = F/A. Ground pressure (P) is simply the weight of the vehicle (F) divided by the sum of all tyres ground contact area (A) The lower the ground pressure the less damage caused by a rolling wheel. The higher the ground pressure the more the tyre will sink into the surface, eventually leading to loss of forward traction and wheelspin.

Imagine a fully loaded VX on 30 inch tyres. It would cut grooves up to the diffs. Conversely a little Suzuki on 36 inch tyres would almost float over the softest terrain causing little or no damage.

In my view the problem that Murray Waters wants to address is not caused by tyre size, but by tyre use. There are idiots out there who will fit 36 inch tyres and rip up the countryside. But there are also idiots of equal ranking that will do it with 33 inch tyres. So taking away the 36 inch tyres won't take away the idiot, it'll just transfer him to a 33 inch tyre.

Or am I being too simple?

[TJ]

Lin, a well thought out argument. Have you written to the magazine or just posted here.

[DieselBoy]

I say write the letter, that gives who ever does, the last word

[ladeda]

I've read the letter from Murray Waters. Firstly there seems to be a certain obsessiveness on the part of the writer that "his way is the right way" . Anyone disagreeing with his viewpoint might be labelled a "track vandal".

Secondly, his assertion that tyres with a greater diameter than 33 inches cause excessive track damage. Is it supported by evidence? He certainly offers plenty of opinion, but where is the science-based evidence?

If we start with the hypothesis that a spinning wheel does far more damage than a rolling wheel, then:

1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage.

2. A larger diameter tyre has a lower ground pressure than a smaller diameter tyre due to it's longer footprint. P = F/A. Ground pressure (P) is simply the weight of the vehicle (F) divided by the sum of all tyres ground contact area (A) The lower the ground pressure the less damage caused by a rolling wheel. The higher the ground pressure the more the tyre will sink into the surface, eventually leading to loss of forward traction and wheelspin.

Imagine a fully loaded VX on 30 inch tyres. It would cut grooves up to the diffs. Conversely a little Suzuki on 36 inch tyres would almost float over the softest terrain causing little or no damage.

In my view the problem that Murray Waters wants to address is not caused by tyre size, but by tyre use. There are idiots out there who will fit 36 inch tyres and rip up the countryside. But there are also idiots of equal ranking that will do it with 33 inch tyres. So taking away the 36 inch tyres won't take away the idiot, it'll just transfer him to a 33 inch tyre.

Or am I being too simple?

Perfect. please post this info to the 4wd mag to be printed. It is exactly the point of view from the other side that needs to be printed.

[Sadam_Husain]

Perfect. please post this info to the 4wd mag to be printed. It is exactly the point of view from the other side that needs to be printed.

yeah with a blackboard, a couple of pieces of chalk, a ruler and a protractor it dosent take much to pull the arguement from 43 years of 4x4 experience apart

[lin]

Lin, a well thought out argument. Have you written to the magazine or just posted here.

Just posted it here and in our club's internal email.

Be happy to publish it in the magazine if I knew how....

[LR90NZ]

Lin, a well thought out argument. Have you written to the magazine or just posted here.

Just posted it here and in our club's internal email.

Be happy to publish it in the magazine if I knew how....

P O Box 65092, Mairangi Bay, Auckland 0754 or
email editor@nz4wd.co.nz

Don't forget to include your name and address

[lin]

Lin, a well thought out argument. Have you written to the magazine or just posted here.

Just posted it here and in our club's internal email.

Be happy to publish it in the magazine if I knew how....

P O Box 65092, Mairangi Bay, Auckland 0754 or
email editor@nz4wd.co.nz

Don't forget to include your name and address

Done.

[Zooker]

I say write the letter, that gives who ever does, the last word

You can never have the last word when greenies are involved mate.
They seem to have nothing else to do.

[7mm Rem Magnum]

1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage. (Quote)

True indead. This could be argued but what when the gearing is changed so the torque is once again the same when applied to the 36 inch tyre....
Also, what about fitting a more powerfull engine like a V8 in a Hibux...which seems to negate the above argument.

[7mm Rem Magnum]

Imagine a fully loaded VX on 30 inch tyres. It would cut grooves up to the diffs. Conversely a little Suzuki on 36 inch tyres would almost float over the softest terrain causing little or no damage (quote)


So what about a VX on 36 inch tyres on soft ground? This will also "cut grooves up to the diffs". Then all the VX,s with tyres that are smaller than the one cutting the 36 inch grooves is bellied in the ruts even when the track becomes bone dry. Something to think about?

[lin]

Imagine a fully loaded VX on 30 inch tyres. It would cut grooves up to the diffs. Conversely a little Suzuki on 36 inch tyres would almost float over the softest terrain causing little or no damage (quote)


So what about a VX on 36 inch tyres on soft ground? This will also "cut grooves up to the diffs". Then all the VX,s with tyres that are smaller than the one cutting the 36 inch grooves is bellied in the ruts even when the track becomes bone dry. Something to think about?

You don't seem to grasp the fundamentals 7mm....... We are trying to illustrate the principle of ground pressure here. The 36" tyres on a VX (compared to 30" tyres on a VX) would have a greater contact area and be less likely to sink in and spin ON THE SAME TERRAIN.

[DieselBoy]

This is the thread to discuss the Merritt's of the tyre size debate:

http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/Forums/ ... 27&t=32161

Don't clutter this one up to much, unless you have a better response than that which has been submitted so far

[lin]

1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage. (Quote)

True indead. This could be argued but what when the gearing is changed so the torque is once again the same when applied to the 36 inch tyre....
Also, what about fitting a more powerfull engine like a V8 in a Hibux...which seems to negate the above argument.

Oh dear. Did you not read "For a given applied drive torque"

[lilpigzuk]

1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage. (Quote)

True indead. This could be argued but what when the gearing is changed so the torque is once again the same when applied to the 36 inch tyre....
Also, what about fitting a more powerfull engine like a V8 in a Hibux...which seems to negate the above argument.

Oh dear. Did you not read "For a given applied drive torque"

Being this person has just joined the forum today at 12.15 and supporting the other clown, Be prepared to argue and argue and argue.....

[slide]

1. For a given applied drive torque from the wheel, a 33 inch tyre will spin before a 36 inch tyre will (given identical wheel and tyre construction) Simple leverage.

And the 36" tyre will require more torque to spin, not only from less leverage, but larger contact patch will give more traction. (comparing same width tyre)

[ladeda]

7mm ducks can outrun a 33inch tyre anyday