Silent on ORE but still not silent.....

[Swamped]

Unsure if this was where I should post this (its kinda access related) or if its been put up already but scanned this out of the straight furrow paper this morning.

This one voice could cause more trouble if he keeps getting listened to by the media. Has anyone seen this published elsewhere?

A more Hi-res copy is here:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk176/_castor_/Muzzacrap-1.jpg

Don't bag on him personally on a public forum as its not a good look if he can't/won't defend his position and esp. if he decides to use the forum as an example in any way. I've just posted this so people are aware hes trying to spread his ideas to a wider audience.

[basics]

"4wd Expert"

he had his say in a fwd mag this month also

[kbushnz]

It all comes down to TREAD LIGHTLY.... And only go hard in areas that it is acceptable to do so....(Thats where people stuff it up)

I have found going from 33 to 35's I am spinning less....

[PeterVahry]

Murray, did quite a mailing campaign to 4wd clubs, government, media etc to push his views. It looks like one publication has followed it up. In his letter he suggested that I was misguided in suggesting that water was a major factor in the creation of ruts. I'm yet to find ruts on a well drained and suitably water managed 4wd track, irrespective of the size of the tyres passing over that surface.

I don't disagree that tyres can create ruts, check out any track used by motorcycles. It's not the size, it's how they are used.

[Swamped]

I don't disagree that tyres can create ruts, check out any track used by motorcycles. It's not the size, it's how they are used.

I agree with this also.

He appears to believe that tyre size is more of a factor than driver mentality although the latter does get a small look in in that article.
imo it appears the only way he can substantiate his argument is to hide behind his "years" of experience and not show any real proof.

I also fail to see how people will allow him to blatantly attack clubs and events, painting them all with the "boy racer" mentality. Sure some individuals are a bit harder drivers but not everyone

I also find that 35's do far far less damage on my farm than the 31's I've had in the past

[crazyclark31]

so what happens when we are all resticted in tyre size and the problem is still present?
Also if the local authorites do start closing things off all it will do is incourage people to poke and push into places that they arn't allowed.
Remember most of te people that cause these problems don't give a shit about rules and don't usually let a gate stop them. Have been places(with permission) and come across a locked gate and the fence cut beside it. .
Remember this is also the same guy who runs 33s on his pajero(which is a big tyre for a pajero) and while is against big tyres, actively condones and has openly admitted in partaking in ******** ****** while driving.(whats worse?) that in itself tells me that this guy is pushing his own agenda and therfore will never get my support or respect.

[DieselBoy]

Choose not to give him the time of day, he will disappear back into the shadows.

[playingInTheDitch]

this guy is doing more harm than good on this topic. the is plenty of evidence for water erosion. scientists must cringe every time that someone says that water does no damage.

also there is plenty of evidence that a spinning 33 or smaller is doing more damage than a 35 that's not spinning.



we all know this (well most of us) I think its time we made some noise ourselves coz if we can get the ear of people with enough clout we can prevent any hassles.

[bob_or_jim]

First of all I didnt realise we had an issue with hummers and portal axles.

I do belive there is a massive problem with tracks being damaged, like everybody else has said its the small group of people that ruin it for everyone. There are definatly alot more "monster trucks" out there now but that was always going to happen with cheap jap imports and easy access to 33+ inch tires. Certainly doesnt mean there all ripping up the tracks.

It happens all too often that we have a blanket ban due to a few people attracting some negative attention (thanks you tube) . I think what we can do to protect our sport/hobby is to encurage new 4x4ers to join clubs from the beginning. I know in Southland there are rallies almost monthly where we have the chance to clear the ol tires out.

Fingers crossed 1 person doesnt influence the govt in a way that hurts our sport. We have a great place to live with more freedom than most people realise, we need to make sure that this doesnt change.

Keep it clean.

Cheers

[hippy_]

The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

[Tarmac]

from my POV and followiing some of the surrounding debate it dosnt matter how big they are 29 or 37s theres always someone out there that will leave their vehicle in 2wd and skid round the place to see how far they get or bang it into 4 and go for a "slide" which is fine in the right location. I wld almost go so far as to guess these people have no other connection to the outdoors (fishing camping etc) not that this should be compolusary but may impart a respect for the environment. In summary you always get dickheads and limiting tyres to 33s wont solve it

[klompy]

Yep the guys a couple of whiskeys short of a full bottle and nothing will convince he's not making sense,best to ignore him and hope he goes away.

[zephyrheaven]

best to ignore him and hope he goes away.

Worked for this guy - ahem



Them sound like fighting words

"About Me: If you believe you need to fit bigger than 33 inch tyres on your 4x4-go buy your own land -don,t destroy mine..(and learn how to drive in a sustainable way...)
Fav. Quote: Does the NZ 4 wheel Drive Association supports the building of Monster Trucks?!!"

Luckily - apart from this post - nobody has ever heard of him

[tallsam66]

So he thinks vehicles over 3 tonnes shouldnt be used eh ...well good buy to all you nissan guys

[Sadam_Husain]

shit he must be stoked making page 5 of the straight furrow newspaper

[Smurf]

Straight Furrow... Wheel ruts.
I find that funny. Sorry, as you were.

[klompy]

Not much happening in there part of the world if they publish that sort of rubbish.

[ladeda]

wow! some one needs a new hobby!
poor fulla if the people who are into 4wd wont listen to his radical ideas then a news hungy jurno will

[klompy]

I here he's related to Ken Ring.The ruts are caused by the moon,honest.

[ladeda]

I here he's related to Ken Ring.The ruts are caused by the moon,honest.

forget ghost chips its now moon ruts bro

[hosehustler]

I love the competent journalism, high quality heading

"Damage caused by wide 4wd tyres"

Will have to get myself a set of skinny's

[wopass]

Straight Furrow... Wheel ruts.
I find that funny. Sorry, as you were.

ahha hahahhaha

thats all i saw as well.

[SMOKEY]

At the beginning of this thread the author wrote:- " don't bag on him personally on a public forum" , and within a couple of posts one writer makes a personal statement about (quote):- "actively condones and has openly admitted in partaking in ******** ****** while driving".
I have kept out of these posts and don't intend to get involved as Murray is a friend of mine but please be warned the author who made that statement should edit it out, it is a public forum and members need to

TREAD LIGHTLY,

FITZY.

[falcon5nz]

Every time I read something written by this guy I always think he is a muppet with a capital "F". He is one man trying to push his opinions onto others and blindly refuses to listen to reason and logic. (Lot like someone else pictured on this thread.) I wonder about his agenda? Turn public opinion against us to restrict access then swoop in to "save" the sport by acting as an "access liaison" so you have to go through him or be on a run organised by him.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but on firm ground 31, 33 or 35 isn't going to matter, one will be no better or worse. On wet ground where the tire will sink slightly, it still won't matter except once it has gotten deep (water run-off etc) the vehicle with 31's will bottom out, wheel spinning and making it worse, while the vehicle with 33's will have have hard ground and not sitting with the tips of the tyres slinging mud, not moving it.

Hummers? Wouldn't want one. To big.
Portals? Don't see why they affect anything except to increase ground clearance and how is that bad?
Unimogs are awesome go a few places, (I've spent some time in the back of them) I dunno why he mentioned them by name, they fall under his portal ban but once again, too big for my taste. (Wouldn't mind a Pinzgauer but once again portal so I can't have one)
What does he consider "excessively lifted" I wonder?
I'm not touching the 3 ton thing.

[DaveM]

while is against big tyres, actively condones and has openly admitted in partaking in ******** ****** while driving.(whats worse?) that in itself tells me that this guy is pushing his own agenda and therfore will never get my support or respect.

So he admitted he ****** ****** while driving? I didn't read it like that. Why would he be pushing someone elses agenda?
If he believes he is right, good on him for having the balls to have his say, even if it means people toss their teddys and start name calling. I'm having the same stance as many do with the club chit for lifts. Doesn't affect me, so if it happens, so be it.

[xj]

Choose not to give him the time of day, he will disappear back into the shadows.

Not when he goes trolling auctions on TM Pete:

Hey Mark just a quick note. Comments re ******* and driving on mountains are untrue and false and by writing such Libel and Slanderous statements you/and or others breach the deformation act 1954. Please take this as a nice ask and edit such posts. On a lighter note, I am sure we would get on well with common interests. Cheers and thanks in advance Muzza. Good luck with the Jeep sale, I am keen on it myself but have 3 4x4,s already muzzaduck (408 ) 11:48 pm, Thu 30 Aug

Response:

The article was a matter of public record. I never wrote the article, and the term "we" in the article is inclusive and open to that interpretation. IMO encouraging anyone to drink on a 4x4 trip is irresponsible, regardless of wether the driver is involved or not. Perhaps you need to talk to the original author of the article. If you feel the need to take further action, thats up to you. Additionally, you can contact me via various other means if required rather than trolling an auction. 8:05 am, Fri 31 Aug

And to further quote the original article from http://www.teararoa.org.nz/index.cfm/Pa ... /ViewPage/

Murray gestured out the window towards Mt Benmore. "Up near the top of that hill there's a spring where I keep a bottle of ******* hidden. That's what the old Scottish shepherds did, and when I take my clients up in the 4WD, we stop for a ***.

Read it and interpret it how you want.

[EDIT]
The quoting of the article comment above arisies only after accusation of Slander and Defamation by Mr Waters on Trademe, a public forum.
Never in any of my posts, edited or otherwise, have I stated anyones name nor associated business and connected it with drinking and driving, although Mr Waters, by his accusation of Slander and Defamation seems to think otherwise. Summarily, after another two posts made on my trademe auction by Mr Waters today, I finally got around to blacklisting him on the grounds of it becoming a little stalker-ish.

To Mr Waters friends, Im sure you will ensure he views this edit, as Im aware he's already seen my original retort to his accusation. [END EDIT 1305 31.08.12]

Moderators of the site can feel free to edit/delete any of my posts they so desire.

I have nothing more to say on the matter.

Mark Craig
021475822 (if anyone wants to get in touch personally and discuss)

Edited for typos and additional material/disclaimer

[playingInTheDitch]

actually I would be keen to hear his evidence that having more ground clearance is damaging to tracks, how wide tires cut deeper than narrow tyres, how big tyres do more damage than small tyres and how water is not responsible for eroding ruts.
if he (or anyone else who thinks like this) could prove it in a scientific manner, maybe people might respect what he is saying.

somehow I don't think he can

[tow99]

if people look into the construction and forestry industry most of the wheeled machines use large wide tyres to aid in traction and also allow the weight of the machine to be spred over a larger area which reduces ground pressure and leads to less ground damage.why would 4wds not act the same on larger wider tyres?by running larger tyres and driving carefully when needed less ruts would be formed and then it would take less time to maintain the tracks to a driveable standard.
also is there going to be a recomendation on tread type?might aswell put a partion to the government to pave all the tracks if people really dont like the ruts.

[SupraLux]

I tend to find that all areas have their well-meaning but misguided evangelists... but seldom do they have only one topic they are passionate about. What other aspects of 4WDing does Murray get involved in? Is there any positive common ground we all share that could be used as a basis for talking with him and discussing it like adults - or are we all just going to rant away, bagging him on our forum about his articles and his past (And I'll put my hand up right now and say there are things from my past that aren't terribly squeaky clean - has anyone here got a perfect record?... But if people in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones then no glass would ever get broken... then glaziers would go out of business, and since I know a glazier and think he's an ok bloke who has kids to feed I'd hate to see that happen).

Wow, too much sugar on my kornies ... ignore that last bit - what I mean is that using that one snippet from his past to universally denounce him isn't fair or constructive. Its great for winding up a wenzel-like fury the likes of which can only ever be found on forums on the internet, but it won't do anything to resolve the actual issue.

I'll also point out, in case it isn't clear, that I don't know Murray, nor do I share his opinion on this topic - I firmly believe taller and wider tyres help to spread the trucks load and generally provide better grip - saving the tracks from the damage they would get from a truck on 30's dragging its diffs and spinning madly to get through. Guns don't kill people, the person pulling the trigger is responsible. I'd simply like to suggest that the course this thread is taking is widening the gap - and there might be a better way...

Damn. I must be getting old - I remember a time when vigilante justice would have been my weapon of choice...

Steve

[bob_or_jim]

Well said Steve.